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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    WoW= Raiding with a large grp.
    No, WoW is leveling, questing and acquiring better gear. Raiding is just a part of the total package.

    Anyway, I can understand where the comment comes from. MoP had very little 5-man dungeons since they were mostly replaced with scenarios. But scenarios aren't a challenge and hardly reward any loot. Scenarios should've replaced group quests instead of dungeons, the way they were originally intended.

    In that sense, yes people have a valid reason to complain that there aren't enough 5-man dungeons. And not everyone likes to raid. Personally I like LFR since I do like seeing the lore progression and all that, but I don't feel like scenarios and LFR combined fill up the spot that 5-man dungeons/heroics held. We're missing something in-between.
    Last edited by Hardstyler01; 2013-12-11 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #62
    The Patient Soulscorch's Avatar
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    Before in Vanilla/BC/Wrath even in cata u didn't have boss guides at all OR the movies were made so epic that the vast majority saw raiding as a feat only for the "gods" (expecially in Vanilla/BC).

    Nowadays boss-kill movies are chilled out, people most of the time record everything from mom/nigger jokes to random swearing + we got Fatboss and they are going all comedian style on it. Noone can look at even the top raiders as being gods. Everyone knows that they are like you and me.

    Another funny thing i hear even from IRL friends is "i know that guy cuz i leveled/did dungeons <overall played on the same level> in <insert random period in the past here> and now he is a HEROIC RAIDER!!!! Like wtf he was so bad... pfff if i renew my sub i'm so totally gonna clear heroic cuz it's cake... this game is so bad and it's so not what it used to be". Good example is vanilla time when this type of player would stare with a pants-piercing boner at any raider's epic gear that was afk-ing in main cities. I find it appaling... and funny.

    As for dungeons i've had a discussion with another IRL friend some time ago. He said that they "took it away from him". "What did they take away?" i asked. "In Vanilla/BC i would run a dungeon in whole day and if some gear dropped the NEXT time i would run it with the same group you could feel the difference and do it in less time and even sometimes ignoring mechanics". All i could see before my eyes were 3 letters "WTF" while i stood in silence with my palm over my eyes for 5-10 seconds. After i recovered from the ordeal i said "but challenge modes" and he was all over the table "BUT GEAR MAAAN... pfff u don't get it like what's the point even...".



    TL;DR: go play mario; this game is built around complex ideas based on in-depth perception of things so if u don't have that perception go play free-to-play games.

  3. #63
    Considering it's a well known fact that raiders have always, in all phases of the game, represented a very small minority in the playerbase, I don't see how you can say it's what everyone wanted to do.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    The most discontent are the loudest. Nothing has changed at all. Cool the alarm bells.

    The raiders are quiet because frankly the raiding has been pretty nice.
    I agree that raid content has been fine, but something HAS changed, and it's the number of dungeons at the start of expansions.

    I used to do dungeons as my way of enjoying my time outside of raid nights. I do not, nor do I WANT to be forced to raid every night in order to have something to do. That takes away the glory of raiding. It turns it into another grind that I just feel like I have to do every day. That makes it NOT AS FUN.

    When dungeons were challenging, I was excited to do them continuously. Outgearing them was not simple, and it still challenged me, even as a regular raider. Now dungeons are simple; not necessarily a bad change on it's own, but there's also a lot LESS of them, so I'm essentially stuck with only 5 to 7 dungeons instead of the 14 that we used to get.

    Either bring back challenging dungeons, or make more of them. Both work in my opinion. But making people do LFR instead is not a valid alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Either bring back challenging dungeons, or make more of them. Both work in my opinion. But making people do LFR instead is not a valid alternative.
    Yeah, I think the message isn't: "We don't want to raid, we want dungeons", but rather, "We don't want JUST to raid, we want dungeons AS WELL".

  6. #66
    I'm not sure what the "Mythic 5" idea is, but if it's Mythic level dungeons, I'd be all over that. I really like doing difficult 5mans with people from a guild or something. Just don't allow a queue for them. Make us run/fly out to them

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Constraint View Post
    That's the funny thing about this game - there's actually more than one person playing. Some people want harder dungeons, some want effortless, 10 minute ones. When one side gets what they want, the other complains. Some people want a bit of both.
    I've never understood the problem with this. That is what effing normals are for. What in the world is wrong with a "heroic" being difficult? If you can't hang, tough shit.

    I don't raid anymore because of my schedule, wife, kid, etc. I do have skills however and would love to run a couple difficult 5-mans. I know there are challenge modes, I just don't think it was necessary at all. Blizzard keeps adding all these fucking modes. Real heroic 5s would make challenge modes as pointless as Flex did for LFR.

  7. #67
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    raiding is ok, for me, but i would really like more dungeons...
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  8. #68
    Sorry, but raiding has never been the sole purpose of the game and never will be. There will always be people that enjoy other aspects of the game. You'll just have to accept that.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    As long as I can log in an have something to strive towards I don't care what they add.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  10. #70
    The angriest and most discontent are the loudest, that's why it always seems on the forums and on MMO-Champion people all just hate the game. Yes there are things to improve, there will always be things to improve.

    But there is ALWAYS someone out there that hates something and the ones that hate it the most are the loudest.
    Last edited by StrayFox; 2013-12-11 at 03:59 PM.

  11. #71
    I like 5 mans, its a nice size group for a bit of fun, and a workable party with separate roles.

    But not the traversty that 5mans are today, like the lol-tastic mop joke that are the current 5mans.

    No, back to the old BRD type dungreons, where you are attacking a city, that feels like a city, where you can go many paths, where there are sub objectives and side lines, and places of interest...just for the hell of it.

    Where I can get lost, and where I can feel real immersion.

    the problem with wow is that Bliz has bought into the whole, everyone must be able to do everything BS.
    Now, thats a problem if raiding is the only endgame and only 1% raid, but why not make a varied endgame, where its just as viable to be a 5man person at endgame as it is to be a 20man raider? Or a pvper doing arena or one doing BGs?

    They could make a spectrum of 5mans.

    And no, you dont need new art each time. That whole TOC crap about an experiment to re-use art failing was pure bullshit. That was not re-using art, that was just being lazy.

    I dont mind them making interesting dungeons wiht the same art style, and boss models, I do mind when its just one room for an entire tier!
    capitalism works you say?
    http://www.businessinsider.com/inequ...u-think-2013-3
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  12. #72
    Mechagnome Vaehatiel's Avatar
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    Challenge modes, anyone? Or perhaps they're too hard for you when you can't outgear them? If you don't want to raid, you don't really need epic gear - after all, what do you need it for? E-peen? Challenge modes are pretty much what you casuals are asking for... you can't deny that very fact, can you now?

    Bet most of you "give us hard 5man heroics" whiners don't even have any 9/9 gold to show, do you?

    I guess I could also mention the hatred for melees when doing challenge modes... after all it's not like rangeds are making cms a joke, right? People surely dislike melees in their CM parties because melees are ruining the challenge, right? Fucking hypocrites.
    Last edited by Vaehatiel; 2013-12-11 at 04:06 PM.

  13. #73
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Yes, and because Blizzard tries to cater to all, they fail. Again and again. Almost any controversial change can be traced back to Blizzard trying to serve too many opinions instead of doing the sensible thing.
    I bet more publisher want a fail game like WoW in their portfolio. And I bet you being a game designer with a few hits under your belt know what the "sensible" thing to do is. Care to share?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience
    That's funny, because when I started, I was playing to play an RPG that was also an MMO. I knew nothing about the game, especially raiding.

  15. #75
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, I think the message isn't: "We don't want to raid, we want dungeons", but rather, "We don't want JUST to raid, we want dungeons AS WELL".
    I think it is a fair demand.

    Now let us discuss:
    -at what point in the game do you want these dungeons
    -what purpose will they serve

    I think this needs to be discussed, because people also like to mention they like challenging dungeons. This is easy enough to implement on release of an x-pac pre-raid.

    Now take us to the middle of an x-pac and insert "challenging" dungeons. To be challenging they most like will require that you run them in raid gear. Now..what is the reward there? Cosmetic items? Mounts? Gear that is a slap in the face of any normal, heroic or mythic raider of the tier before?
    Or are they the mid-game catch up mechanism? In which case they must be possible in pre-raid gear and are wasted on everyone who has already progressed in the x-pac and justified complaints aka "they are just faceroll" will ensue.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    Challenge modes, anyone? Or perhaps they're too hard for you when you can't outgear them? If you don't want to raid, you don't really need epic gear - after all, what do you need it for? E-peen? Challenge modes are pretty much what you casuals are asking for... you can't deny that very fact, can you now?

    Bet most of you "give us hard 5man heroics" whiners don't even have any 9/9 gold to show, do you?

    I guess I could also mention the hatred for melees when doing challenge modes... after all it's not like rangeds are making cms a joke, right? People surely dislike melees in their CM parties because melees are ruining the challenge, right? Fucking hypocrites.
    Rude comment, stupid arguments. Seems to go well hand in hand.

    I don't know under which rock you've been living, to be fully oblivious to why challenge modes in no way provide what these people are asking for. Might be The Immovable Stone of Eternal Ignorance, or something like that.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2013-12-11 at 04:11 PM.

  17. #77
    Mechagnome Vaehatiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Rude comment, stupid arguments. Seems to go well hand in hand.

    I don't know under which rock you've been living, to be fully beyond why challenge modes in no way provide what these people are asking for. Might be The Immovable Stone of Eternal Ignorance, or something like that.
    Oh, please, enlighten me. How are the challenge modes so different than what you ask for? All I can think of is gear... which means nothing.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    Oh, please, enlighten me.
    If I believed there was any hope, I'd try. But, pearls before swine, and all of that. Alas, do depart, fatuous one!

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    Challenge modes, anyone? Or perhaps they're too hard for you when you can't outgear them? If you don't want to raid, you don't really need epic gear - after all, what do you need it for? E-peen? Challenge modes are pretty much what you casuals are asking for... you can't deny that very fact, can you now?

    Bet most of you "give us hard 5man heroics" whiners don't even have any 9/9 gold to show, do you?

    I guess I could also mention the hatred for melees when doing challenge modes... after all it's not like rangeds are making cms a joke, right? People surely dislike melees in their CM parties because melees are ruining the challenge, right? Fucking hypocrites.
    CMs aren't really a part of character power progression and are about beating a timer rather than beating a thing; "winning" is already a certainty because the content itself isn't actually that challenging - there's not a real risk of actually wiping, that risk comes with how much you rush it. I've given them a shot, but I just don't find that sort of race content to be for me. An instance can be hard to overcome without needing a timer attached.

    As for gear, what few PuGs I've seen asking to fill them out have had very high item level requirements, because people see it is a metric of ability - if you have good gear, you must be a good player, right? Even then, on top of that there's often an expectation of a very tightly itemised 'BiS CM' set which accommodates all the special rules regarding legendaries, set bonuses and such. They are about as far from casual as it gets.

    Lastly, no new dungeons were added since the expansion's release. Even for the most hardcore CMer, that can surely become tedious with nothing new for 18 months?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    I saw this sentence on mmo champ and it really got me, what the hell has happend over the years?

    Ive played WoW since late vanilla and since the start, WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience, what I felt everyone thought was the most fun in the game and what everyone i knew were doing when i played thru Vanilla, BC, WOTLK, Cata.
    I mean u did everything else (Gearing up etc) to get to the main goal in the game (Raiding)
    No, it is not, and never was. Actually, the reason the vast majority of players started playing World of WarCraft was pretty much everything but raiding. That is what the less than 1% of the players engaging in raiding shows quite clearly.

    When World of WarCraft was released, the average mmorpg gaming community numbered in the hundreds of thousands, 200k plus at best. Blizzard never really expected to go into the millions; their goal was to overtake the average and double its size, to go to 400k, in time. They surpassed two millions in weeks. That leaves more than 1.8 million players that never engaged in an mmorpg. How did you come to the conclusion that all, or even most, of these people were playing towards being able to raid? I'd wager a lot didn't even know what raiding was at the time. And as a player that started on classic, that was quite apparent. Most people, according to Blizzard as well, were just levelling, throughout classic; and a lot didn't even reach the 60th level on a single character before Crusade arrived. So no, it was not that almost everyone was looking forward to raiding; it was more like most of everyone was out in the world of the game playing around, doing quests, exploring, gathering reagents, killing mobs by the dozen, getting lost, engaging in world pvp, and so on. It was a rare occasion for a player to raid, or advancing to a raiding status.

    And while Blizzard has tried quite dutifully ever since to shoehorn everyone into raiding, and instanced content in general, since it is easier, faster and cheaper to develop for, this desire has not gone away. Eve with lfr and the absence of as many zones and open-world content in the last major patch of Cataclysm, no more than 40% cleared Dragon Soul. Now, with lfr being a staple of the game, most main characters of players have an item level below 510. And then there are the numbers of WoWProgress about how many players have defeated about half of the boss encounters in Siege of Orgrimmar right now, or Throne of Thunder when it was current content; they don't add up to even half a million. That is how popular normal and heroic raiding are. At the same time, all raiding guilds are dwarfed in size by social guilds most of the time; social guilds were if there ever is a guild raid it is usually on past tiers' content, not current. Meanwhile, most players in those guilds engage in questing, exploring, transmogrification, crafting, gathering, alt-levelling, collecting, etc; just like classic. It's just that there is a lot less open-world content to do in expansions compared to classic, and lfr is so easy a way to gather gear while being alt-tabbed, that why not do that as well from time to time.

    So, it just isn't true that most of everyone that ever played this game sought to enter raiding. Most players, even nowadays lean towards the open-world role-playing elements of the game. Those are what made it such an immense success. Those are sadly forsaken due to the fact that the game wouldn't be as profitable as it is if they were maintained and developed further properly (just imagine the reduced profit from having to develop an expansion with 6 main campaigns and 30+ zones like in classic, instead of the 2 main campaigns and about 8 zones of the expansions). But it is no big mystery that most players don't care as much about raiding. After all, it's one of the most awkward parts of the game, functioning more like a battle-arena experience than a role-playing one. Most players came to World of WarCraft for the same reason they or others went to Elder Scrolls, Zelda, Fallout, and even Grand Theft Auto: the open-world role-playing experience, not killing the same dragon for five months at a time while comparing damage output and bickering over loot priority.

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