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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    WoW= Raiding with a large grp.
    No, WoW is leveling, questing and acquiring better gear. Raiding is just a part of the total package.

    Anyway, I can understand where the comment comes from. MoP had very little 5-man dungeons since they were mostly replaced with scenarios. But scenarios aren't a challenge and hardly reward any loot. Scenarios should've replaced group quests instead of dungeons, the way they were originally intended.

    In that sense, yes people have a valid reason to complain that there aren't enough 5-man dungeons. And not everyone likes to raid. Personally I like LFR since I do like seeing the lore progression and all that, but I don't feel like scenarios and LFR combined fill up the spot that 5-man dungeons/heroics held. We're missing something in-between.
    Last edited by mmoceb1605b3cd; 2013-12-11 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #62
    Before in Vanilla/BC/Wrath even in cata u didn't have boss guides at all OR the movies were made so epic that the vast majority saw raiding as a feat only for the "gods" (expecially in Vanilla/BC).

    Nowadays boss-kill movies are chilled out, people most of the time record everything from mom/nigger jokes to random swearing + we got Fatboss and they are going all comedian style on it. Noone can look at even the top raiders as being gods. Everyone knows that they are like you and me.

    Another funny thing i hear even from IRL friends is "i know that guy cuz i leveled/did dungeons <overall played on the same level> in <insert random period in the past here> and now he is a HEROIC RAIDER!!!! Like wtf he was so bad... pfff if i renew my sub i'm so totally gonna clear heroic cuz it's cake... this game is so bad and it's so not what it used to be". Good example is vanilla time when this type of player would stare with a pants-piercing boner at any raider's epic gear that was afk-ing in main cities. I find it appaling... and funny.

    As for dungeons i've had a discussion with another IRL friend some time ago. He said that they "took it away from him". "What did they take away?" i asked. "In Vanilla/BC i would run a dungeon in whole day and if some gear dropped the NEXT time i would run it with the same group you could feel the difference and do it in less time and even sometimes ignoring mechanics". All i could see before my eyes were 3 letters "WTF" while i stood in silence with my palm over my eyes for 5-10 seconds. After i recovered from the ordeal i said "but challenge modes" and he was all over the table "BUT GEAR MAAAN... pfff u don't get it like what's the point even...".



    TL;DR: go play mario; this game is built around complex ideas based on in-depth perception of things so if u don't have that perception go play free-to-play games.

  3. #63
    Considering it's a well known fact that raiders have always, in all phases of the game, represented a very small minority in the playerbase, I don't see how you can say it's what everyone wanted to do.

  4. #64
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Either bring back challenging dungeons, or make more of them. Both work in my opinion. But making people do LFR instead is not a valid alternative.
    Yeah, I think the message isn't: "We don't want to raid, we want dungeons", but rather, "We don't want JUST to raid, we want dungeons AS WELL".

  5. #65
    Bloodsail Admiral Transmigration's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what the "Mythic 5" idea is, but if it's Mythic level dungeons, I'd be all over that. I really like doing difficult 5mans with people from a guild or something. Just don't allow a queue for them. Make us run/fly out to them

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Constraint View Post
    That's the funny thing about this game - there's actually more than one person playing. Some people want harder dungeons, some want effortless, 10 minute ones. When one side gets what they want, the other complains. Some people want a bit of both.
    I've never understood the problem with this. That is what effing normals are for. What in the world is wrong with a "heroic" being difficult? If you can't hang, tough shit.

    I don't raid anymore because of my schedule, wife, kid, etc. I do have skills however and would love to run a couple difficult 5-mans. I know there are challenge modes, I just don't think it was necessary at all. Blizzard keeps adding all these fucking modes. Real heroic 5s would make challenge modes as pointless as Flex did for LFR.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    raiding is ok, for me, but i would really like more dungeons...
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  7. #67
    Sorry, but raiding has never been the sole purpose of the game and never will be. There will always be people that enjoy other aspects of the game. You'll just have to accept that.

  8. #68
    As long as I can log in an have something to strive towards I don't care what they add.
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  9. #69
    The angriest and most discontent are the loudest, that's why it always seems on the forums and on MMO-Champion people all just hate the game. Yes there are things to improve, there will always be things to improve.

    But there is ALWAYS someone out there that hates something and the ones that hate it the most are the loudest.
    Last edited by StrayFox; 2013-12-11 at 03:59 PM.

  10. #70
    Deleted
    I like 5 mans, its a nice size group for a bit of fun, and a workable party with separate roles.

    But not the traversty that 5mans are today, like the lol-tastic mop joke that are the current 5mans.

    No, back to the old BRD type dungreons, where you are attacking a city, that feels like a city, where you can go many paths, where there are sub objectives and side lines, and places of interest...just for the hell of it.

    Where I can get lost, and where I can feel real immersion.

    the problem with wow is that Bliz has bought into the whole, everyone must be able to do everything BS.
    Now, thats a problem if raiding is the only endgame and only 1% raid, but why not make a varied endgame, where its just as viable to be a 5man person at endgame as it is to be a 20man raider? Or a pvper doing arena or one doing BGs?

    They could make a spectrum of 5mans.

    And no, you dont need new art each time. That whole TOC crap about an experiment to re-use art failing was pure bullshit. That was not re-using art, that was just being lazy.

    I dont mind them making interesting dungeons wiht the same art style, and boss models, I do mind when its just one room for an entire tier!

  11. #71
    Challenge modes, anyone? Or perhaps they're too hard for you when you can't outgear them? If you don't want to raid, you don't really need epic gear - after all, what do you need it for? E-peen? Challenge modes are pretty much what you casuals are asking for... you can't deny that very fact, can you now?

    Bet most of you "give us hard 5man heroics" whiners don't even have any 9/9 gold to show, do you?

    I guess I could also mention the hatred for melees when doing challenge modes... after all it's not like rangeds are making cms a joke, right? People surely dislike melees in their CM parties because melees are ruining the challenge, right? Fucking hypocrites.
    Last edited by mauserr; 2013-12-11 at 04:06 PM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience
    That's funny, because when I started, I was playing to play an RPG that was also an MMO. I knew nothing about the game, especially raiding.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    Challenge modes, anyone? Or perhaps they're too hard for you when you can't outgear them? If you don't want to raid, you don't really need epic gear - after all, what do you need it for? E-peen? Challenge modes are pretty much what you casuals are asking for... you can't deny that very fact, can you now?

    Bet most of you "give us hard 5man heroics" whiners don't even have any 9/9 gold to show, do you?

    I guess I could also mention the hatred for melees when doing challenge modes... after all it's not like rangeds are making cms a joke, right? People surely dislike melees in their CM parties because melees are ruining the challenge, right? Fucking hypocrites.
    Rude comment, stupid arguments. Seems to go well hand in hand.

    I don't know under which rock you've been living, to be fully oblivious to why challenge modes in no way provide what these people are asking for. Might be The Immovable Stone of Eternal Ignorance, or something like that.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2013-12-11 at 04:11 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Rude comment, stupid arguments. Seems to go well hand in hand.

    I don't know under which rock you've been living, to be fully beyond why challenge modes in no way provide what these people are asking for. Might be The Immovable Stone of Eternal Ignorance, or something like that.
    Oh, please, enlighten me. How are the challenge modes so different than what you ask for? All I can think of is gear... which means nothing.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    Oh, please, enlighten me.
    If I believed there was any hope, I'd try. But, pearls before swine, and all of that. Alas, do depart, fatuous one!

  16. #76
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikrsson View Post
    Challenge modes, anyone? Or perhaps they're too hard for you when you can't outgear them? If you don't want to raid, you don't really need epic gear - after all, what do you need it for? E-peen? Challenge modes are pretty much what you casuals are asking for... you can't deny that very fact, can you now?

    Bet most of you "give us hard 5man heroics" whiners don't even have any 9/9 gold to show, do you?

    I guess I could also mention the hatred for melees when doing challenge modes... after all it's not like rangeds are making cms a joke, right? People surely dislike melees in their CM parties because melees are ruining the challenge, right? Fucking hypocrites.
    CMs aren't really a part of character power progression and are about beating a timer rather than beating a thing; "winning" is already a certainty because the content itself isn't actually that challenging - there's not a real risk of actually wiping, that risk comes with how much you rush it. I've given them a shot, but I just don't find that sort of race content to be for me. An instance can be hard to overcome without needing a timer attached.

    As for gear, what few PuGs I've seen asking to fill them out have had very high item level requirements, because people see it is a metric of ability - if you have good gear, you must be a good player, right? Even then, on top of that there's often an expectation of a very tightly itemised 'BiS CM' set which accommodates all the special rules regarding legendaries, set bonuses and such. They are about as far from casual as it gets.

    Lastly, no new dungeons were added since the expansion's release. Even for the most hardcore CMer, that can surely become tedious with nothing new for 18 months?
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-12-11 at 04:39 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
    I saw this sentence on mmo champ and it really got me, what the hell has happend over the years?

    Ive played WoW since late vanilla and since the start, WoW= Raiding with a large grp. This is the meaning of this game basicily, why people started to play the game to experience, what I felt everyone thought was the most fun in the game and what everyone i knew were doing when i played thru Vanilla, BC, WOTLK, Cata.
    I mean u did everything else (Gearing up etc) to get to the main goal in the game (Raiding)
    No, it is not, and never was. Actually, the reason the vast majority of players started playing World of WarCraft was pretty much everything but raiding. That is what the less than 1% of the players engaging in raiding shows quite clearly.

    When World of WarCraft was released, the average mmorpg gaming community numbered in the hundreds of thousands, 200k plus at best. Blizzard never really expected to go into the millions; their goal was to overtake the average and double its size, to go to 400k, in time. They surpassed two millions in weeks. That leaves more than 1.8 million players that never engaged in an mmorpg. How did you come to the conclusion that all, or even most, of these people were playing towards being able to raid? I'd wager a lot didn't even know what raiding was at the time. And as a player that started on classic, that was quite apparent. Most people, according to Blizzard as well, were just levelling, throughout classic; and a lot didn't even reach the 60th level on a single character before Crusade arrived. So no, it was not that almost everyone was looking forward to raiding; it was more like most of everyone was out in the world of the game playing around, doing quests, exploring, gathering reagents, killing mobs by the dozen, getting lost, engaging in world pvp, and so on. It was a rare occasion for a player to raid, or advancing to a raiding status.

    And while Blizzard has tried quite dutifully ever since to shoehorn everyone into raiding, and instanced content in general, since it is easier, faster and cheaper to develop for, this desire has not gone away. Eve with lfr and the absence of as many zones and open-world content in the last major patch of Cataclysm, no more than 40% cleared Dragon Soul. Now, with lfr being a staple of the game, most main characters of players have an item level below 510. And then there are the numbers of WoWProgress about how many players have defeated about half of the boss encounters in Siege of Orgrimmar right now, or Throne of Thunder when it was current content; they don't add up to even half a million. That is how popular normal and heroic raiding are. At the same time, all raiding guilds are dwarfed in size by social guilds most of the time; social guilds were if there ever is a guild raid it is usually on past tiers' content, not current. Meanwhile, most players in those guilds engage in questing, exploring, transmogrification, crafting, gathering, alt-levelling, collecting, etc; just like classic. It's just that there is a lot less open-world content to do in expansions compared to classic, and lfr is so easy a way to gather gear while being alt-tabbed, that why not do that as well from time to time.

    So, it just isn't true that most of everyone that ever played this game sought to enter raiding. Most players, even nowadays lean towards the open-world role-playing elements of the game. Those are what made it such an immense success. Those are sadly forsaken due to the fact that the game wouldn't be as profitable as it is if they were maintained and developed further properly (just imagine the reduced profit from having to develop an expansion with 6 main campaigns and 30+ zones like in classic, instead of the 2 main campaigns and about 8 zones of the expansions). But it is no big mystery that most players don't care as much about raiding. After all, it's one of the most awkward parts of the game, functioning more like a battle-arena experience than a role-playing one. Most players came to World of WarCraft for the same reason they or others went to Elder Scrolls, Zelda, Fallout, and even Grand Theft Auto: the open-world role-playing experience, not killing the same dragon for five months at a time while comparing damage output and bickering over loot priority.

  18. #78
    What is wrong with Mythic 5 player dungeons? What is wrong with challenging 5 player content for people? Why does everyone's goal need to be raiding? Why can't you respect a variety of play styles?

    For YOU, WoW = large group raiding. For others, it is the lore, the environment, the questing, the WORLD part of WoW ... not super instanced scripted fighting challenge extravaganza!

    I like raiding, but I'm not obtuse enough to ignore that different people like different games.


    Let me ask you this, if the game was just a lobby, with raids ... would you play it? If WoW = raiding; then why not have ALL resources go to raiding, and the capitols basically be a centralized lobby.


    See, you are wearing blinders because of your personal tastes and experiences and the people (get this) you played with because they liked to do similar things.


    I didn't start playing WoW to raid. I started because my wife suggested it in BC. She wanted me to try it out because she loved it (wasn't my wife at the time). I ended up playing and just having fun in the world. I came from mainly console RPGs and raiding wasn't even on my radar ... which I bet is a more prevalent scenario than you think, even -after- LFR. I got a close friend into WoW, she played for two years and never reached max level with a single toon, but still payed her sub and liked the game.


    Your assumption is raids are it. If you look at statistics, they are less it every year ... I still like them, but they aren't the end all, be all of MMOs, and they can't reasonably be produced in size, speed, and quality fast enough for most 'skilled' players.


    To answer your question:
    If Raids didn't exist, would there acctualy (sic) be a lot of players still playing this game? Yes, most definitely. There would be MILLIONS still playing the game. More people don't raid, than raid I would even go out on a limb to say (at least anything outside of LFR, pre-LFR I'd be confident in this even moreso).

    What is the reason why you are playing WoW?
    I'm not right now, but it isn't because of raids, it is because of several changes to several classes/specs I just didn't like. I used to raid a lot, but even then, that wasn't the reason I logged on, it was one of the things I did weekly when I logged on. If it was the only thing in the game, I would've never stayed with the game for years. I play to have fun. I play because I like how a class feels. I play because I like the world. I play because I like the people I play with. There are so many reasons to play, raiding makes up a very small part of that.


    If you play strictly to raid, that is great for you. Your mistake was assuming are just like you, and do things for the same reasons you do ... that is ok, most people are narcissistic to some extent; it is a social skill to learn to empathize and see people as independent individuals. The community feels like shit, because people are being shitty to each other, and wanting everyone to play the same way and for the same reasons. The problems aren't caused by people with different goals or skill levels, it is caused by people who can't respect others with different goals and skill levels. That ties in to the trend you see of people being selfish and only wanting to play with those who they see as equals (even if the reality of their personal skill isn't as high as they believe). Many aren't taking the time to help new players. They just want to 'win' and 'get loots'. It has been slowly destroying the community for years.

    I think, the mentality of 'I only play to raid' is bad for the genre as a whole. Why? Because no new game will come out with enough content, or have a fast enough content cycle to please that mentality. Take SWtOR, though it needed refinement, it was a damn good game, the story, the leveling experience was phenominal. Problem was, people rushed to max level and rushed to beat the raid content as fast as possible. This 'world first race' mentality is destroying the 'fun' part of the game in exchange for intensity and a sense of competition for first place.

    If people really just want to raid ... then MMORPG is not the right genre. What we need is something new that simply focuses on this group content only. You log in, you raid, you log off. All investment goes into a relatively fast raid content release ... but the game would have no 'soul' for some. Simply raiding doesn't give you much of MMO or RPG ... and a lobby based community is even worse than the current state of WoW. It would be even harder to form bonds and long term friends in such an environment.


    So, we need raids, dungeons, quests, a world that feels alive, great lore, great artwork/armor ... and plenty of things to do outside of raiding in the world to make a solid game to create a large enough community to hold enough people to keep the economy functioning and see people leveling or while in cities and strongholds. A one dimensional game I doubt could ever be as successful as WoW has been.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    They are even eliminating 10/25 man and making it a single category of 20 in WoD.
    20 man is only for mythic difficulty. Normal and Heroic will be flex (10-25).

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