Thread: Help our mage!

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  1. #1

    Help our mage!

    Hello all,

    Our guild is a fairly casual raid guild and we are struggling on 10 man normal paragons atm. Our mage seems to be under performing for their ilvl. I know nothing about mage dps so anything the experts could provide to pass along would be appreciated.

    Since I cannot post WoL links yet. US Ma'ganis>Pillows>Dec 7 logs

    Above is our best attempt on paragons but feel free to dissect other attempts or bosses. Of note, the two ele shamans are not part of the raid grp any longer.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    There is a thread for this, but anyways. His Invoker's Energy uptime is terrible, his mage bomb uptimes are low, and in general he just isn't hitting his buttons enough (he missed like 20 FFBs).

    The only reason his DPS looks kind of decent is because ice lance is cleaving and doing useless cheese DPS.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by diarock View Post
    paragons
    Quote Originally Posted by diarock View Post
    dissect
    heh

    Looking at this log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/5mlrq...?s=5456&e=5787

    Invoker's Energy uptime is terrible, Living Bomb uptime should be way higher. A good way to track these two things is probably the #1 thing I'd get him/her set up with.

    Brain Freeze procs are being held for too long at times (potentially losing out on procs since it will overwrite).

    Not using 3m CDs at the start of the fight and therefore losing out on not only the potential to get in another set of 3 minutes over the course of the fight, but also not able to reliably line up trinket procs. Maybe your strategy is different from what I have seen and it's a waste to use them in the beginning, but otherwise they should definitely be doing this.

    Consider using Temporal Shield over Ice Barrier. Very good for fiery edges.
    Consider using Ice Floes or Blazing Speed over Presence of Mind.
    Armory | Stream

    <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> - 14/14 Heroic US 4th West 16th 25m Always Recruiting

  4. #4
    Low invoker's energy and bomb uptime have already been mentioned, but I feel that it's worth it to mention these again. I agree with making this the #1 priority.

    Lots of wasted gcds on non-FoF'd lances - 24 ice lance hits at an average of 23k. There's potential for significant improvement here as well - 24 wasted gcds in a 5min attempt is a lot. Possible culprits are mashing the button too much when expending procs (throws an extra lance after last proc falls off - need to watch this better) or using it while moving (take/use ice floes and move less, paragons normal isn't exactly movement intensive).

    Also it doesn't look like theres much cheese going on, according to his/her armory he/she didn't take glyph of splitting ice? Not that it's important for paragons, but it's quite useful on a lot of the other fights in SoO

  5. #5
    Presence of mind for a frost mage, O DEAR GOD!

    Blazing Speed/Icy Floes better than this end of, PoM is for fire mages for combustion use.

    Invokers - 48% ? Really thats a 15% damage buff lost for over half the fight.
    Bomb - 68% ? Should be 90+ min (realistically should never drop, hell on this fight he could cheese further with bomb on all targets)
    Ice lance - 24 non crits = 24 times used without fingers proc

    Also personally on this fight i prefer NT over LB as it procs more FFB for the 2pc (but is cheesing a little as i bomb all targets)

    On the plus side however I can't really rip apart his gear

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A0/advanced

    Except Yulons Bite is rubbish as is his main and oh (but probably hasn't got better)
    Last edited by Salystra; 2013-12-12 at 01:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    I really don't see anything wrong with playing what you enjoy. Be it Frost, Fire, Arcane or Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by diarock View Post
    Hello all,

    Our guild is a fairly casual raid guild and we are struggling on 10 man normal paragons atm. Our mage seems to be under performing for their ilvl. I know nothing about mage dps so anything the experts could provide to pass along would be appreciated.

    Since I cannot post WoL links yet. US Ma'ganis>Pillows>Dec 7 logs

    Above is our best attempt on paragons but feel free to dissect other attempts or bosses. Of note, the two ele shamans are not part of the raid grp any longer.

    Thanks in advance!

    just saying. dont push anything on him.

  7. #7
    Unproven he isn't pushing anything the guy is basically lacking on some of the major fundamentals of the class.

    If he was pushing him to spec change then I agree but he isn't
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    I really don't see anything wrong with playing what you enjoy. Be it Frost, Fire, Arcane or Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

  8. #8
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unproven View Post
    just saying. dont push anything on him.
    Being "fairly casual" does not mean you can just go and ignore fundamental knowledge of a class. They want to do Paragons normal, I assume Garrosh as well. The guy needs to know what to do. The raid leader(Or guild leader) recognises this and tries to help him, as he should if they want to progress further. That is not pushing at all.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Draghonfourt View Post
    Being "fairly casual" does not mean you can just go and ignore fundamental knowledge of a class. They want to do Paragons normal, I assume Garrosh as well. The guy needs to know what to do. The raid leader(Or guild leader) recognises this and tries to help him, as he should if they want to progress further. That is not pushing at all.
    in YOUR mind it might not be be pushing. maybe it is in his/her?
    not everyone wants to get folks snopping into their rotations etc etc.

    just saying this is a wobbly road to walk if they are social, and the mage himselvf / herselvf havent asked for any assistence
    Last edited by Unproven; 2013-12-12 at 02:56 PM.

  10. #10
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unproven View Post
    in YOUR mind it might not be be pushing. maybe it is in his/her?
    not everyone wants to get folks snopping into their rotations etc etc.

    just saying this is a wobbly road to walk if they are social, and the mage himselvf / herselvf havent asked for any assistence
    If he is a social without this ambition then the guild leader wouldn't be posting here. Don't think in if/when all the time, somebody asks for help. So give it.

  11. #11
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    The easiest thing to do for mages who are really struggling with Invocation uptime is to have them change to use the Incanter's Ward talent in that same level, and then simply never actually cast it ... it's not quite the same DPS boost sitting there passive as having high invocation uptime, but it's less maintenance (since you do nothing) and it's far better than 48% uptime.

    And then his bomb should always be up on the target. Always. It's instant cast, so you can even cast it while running around, etc.


    Fix using the level 90 talents (high invocation uptime / incanter's ward on passive, etc) and keeping bombs up all the time and you fix about 85% of the mage DPS issues you see people asking about.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by vadya View Post
    The easiest thing to do for mages who are really struggling with Invocation uptime is to have them change to use the Incanter's Ward talent in that same level, and then simply never actually cast it ... it's not quite the same DPS boost sitting there passive as having high invocation uptime, but it's less maintenance (since you do nothing) and it's far better than 48% uptime.

    And then his bomb should always be up on the target. Always. It's instant cast, so you can even cast it while running around, etc.


    Fix using the level 90 talents (high invocation uptime / incanter's ward on passive, etc) and keeping bombs up all the time and you fix about 85% of the mage DPS issues you see people asking about.
    thats not correct actually, even with a 50% uptime on his evo he should get around 7,5% dmg buff instead of the static 6%. just make him make some weak auras for these uptimes and never forget the abc

  13. #13
    cellyna sry, your calcualtion got a flaw.... vadys is right.... IW would be worth using...
    Yes the average dmg gain owuld be 7,5% vs 6%..... but you'll never loose cast time with IW....
    Asume a 8 min fight..... 50% uptime on Invocation would need at least 3 casts in the fight... which would be ~7 sec cast time lost which is ~1,5% of the total fight duration in which you don't dps... so both talantes would be equal... in this best case scenario for invoc...
    IW is very underestimated.... it is not that bad at all and really improves your QoL

  14. #14
    although u are right, i fail to see how in a 8 minute fight someone will need to evocate only 3 times and im only thinking of it mana wise. the problem is probably more close to the ABC

  15. #15
    so lets asume he did more evoctions and cancelled them bevor getting the buff..... IW is perfectly save to take for players who struggle here ^^

    => IW is a dmg GAIN in this scenario ^^ so it is save to advice the use of IW

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cellyna View Post
    although u are right, i fail to see how in a 8 minute fight someone will need to evocate only 3 times and im only thinking of it mana wise. the problem is probably more close to the ABC
    Mana is a complete non issue for fire and frost, and this mage is frost. I don't even think it is possible to go OOM as frost unless you are actively being mana drained by a priest or something (if mana drains are still in the game, which I don't even know).

    That said, Invoker's is as important to mages as slice and dice is to rogues. If you have a rogue that had a 50% uptime on SnD, you would boot his ass so fast... so really, if a mage can't be bothered to keep up their most important self buff, they either need to fix it, or get replaced.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    Mana is a complete non issue for fire and frost, and this mage is frost. I don't even think it is possible to go OOM as frost unless you are actively being mana drained by a priest or something (if mana drains are still in the game, which I don't even know).
    Sorry Bro, do you even play a mage? Mana IS an issue if you don't evocate... you'll go oom within 2 minutes if you arent lucky with proccs (frost - they cost 0 mana)
    every mage knows thei mana is down to ~20% when the incanter buff falls off..... but even with normal mana reg, when the buff is off... you hardly have enough regen to keep your dps fully up. e.g. Frostbolt 12k manacost, casttime 1.4 sec and 20k manaregen every 5 sec.... calculate your self ^^

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LI2Atronach View Post
    Sorry Bro, do you even play a mage? Mana IS an issue if you don't evocate... you'll go oom within 2 minutes if you arent lucky with proccs (frost - they cost 0 mana)
    Why wouldn't you evocate for 2 minutes?

  19. #19
    High Overlord Henzington's Avatar
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    I have been close to oom before even as fire with enough pyroblast procs you can really drain your mana.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    Why wouldn't you evocate for 2 minutes?
    I like evocation, and use it normally ^^ This was on the topic of the discussed player having just an uptime of teh buff of less than 50% of the fight - and so you also have to ask how he manges not to go oom.... or he evocated to gain mana but didn't complete to get the buff.... A mistake you shouldn't make if you want to perform well.

    he should fix this to improve performance... or take IW ^^

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