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  1. #241

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    No, you don't. Not at all.

    You don't have to embrace their culture, you don't have to like it. You simply have to acknowledge that they exist and that their culture exists. Whether you like them or not isn't up to the game. It simply portrays them as a likeable race... because that's what they are. They're a friendly, kind race, who by and large doesn't need to face much adversity due to the fact that they have the Shado-Pan, who make up the grittier portion of their race.

    If you're feeling forced to love and embrace everything pandaren because they were featured in an expansion that uses their homeland as a backdrop, you might need to reevaluate something. If anything, what you are saying is telling me that you are uncomfortable with them being perceived as a positive thing because it conflicts with your world view. You dislike them, you outright hate them. You want that validated, but the game isn't doing that.



    Except you have to help and befriend other races too.

    I believe you think it's forced... but I think it's simply your bias against the pandaren. Truly. You're forced to help them the same way you were forced to help the taunka, the wolvar, the oracles, the dragons, the broken, the sporregar, the draenei, the naaru, the blood elves, and every other race you help and befriend in every version of the game.

    What we do with the pandaren isn't exclusive to them. It's simply the latest iteration of a nine year long pattern.
    No sorry mate but he's right. You're simply forced this message "war is bad we should cooperate" down your throat constantly.
    I have anduin next to me, and I can't skin him alive and have varian wath me wearin his skin. Why? Because garrosh baaaaad war baaaad.
    This is the kind of "pandaren approach" you're forced to accept.
    Absolutely foreign to the game. I kill allys because that's what I do. I made sure I slaughtered every human in hillsbrad with my lock pre cata.
    That's what the game is about.
    Horde vs alliance + some shit on the side
    Not his absolutely uncomfortable, unnecessary and foreign concept of "war is bad mmmkay?"
    Because is war is bad, Warcraft is bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellhammered View Post
    No please no more... Please no more...

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    No sorry mate but he's right. You're simply forced this message "war is bad we should cooperate" down your throat constantly.
    I have anduin next to me, and I can't skin him alive and have varian wath me wearin his skin. Why? Because garrosh baaaaad war baaaad.
    This is the kind of "pandaren approach" you're forced to accept.
    Absolutely foreign to the game. I kill allys because that's what I do. I made sure I slaughtered every human in hillsbrad with my lock pre cata.
    That's what the game is about.
    Horde vs alliance + some shit on the side
    Not his absolutely uncomfortable, unnecessary and foreign concept of "war is bad mmmkay?"
    Because is war is bad, Warcraft is bad.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No please no more... Please no more...
    Again, people trying to attribute things to MoP that have been in Warcraft since the RTS games.

    Trying to avoid conflict for the sake of conflict has been a recurring theme in Warcraft for some time. The storyline has never just been, "durr kill the other side cuz that's the story".

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Tychus View Post
    I guess it's good that Pandaren aren't real, because that almost sounded racist.
    Yes I don't have problems admitting my chars are racist bastards.
    Fuck those pandaren stealing our jobs. Humans smell, dwarf are only good as slaves, gnomes all look the same and night elves are inferior.
    Any problems with that? That's what this game is based on. Hating the other faction.

  5. #245
    Pandaren Monk Doorsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    Again, how does using something as a base inherently mean you have to use the same complexity of that base for your derivative work?

    Why is it not okay to look at a source material and take the bits and pieces you like and think would work for YOUR piece?
    His point was that he does not approve of that they took pieces of something with a lot of depth/potentional - and essentialy turned it into something more lighthearted or less displayed with actual depth.

    And beyond this, taking something that has a lot of depth to only pluck out certain pieces to create something with less depth - is generally not considered well thought-out work. More so then being inspired and "dumbing down". It's more akin to rip-off, copycat - the emphasis here being that there should be more evolution and additon or re-iteration, enough so to justify it's results.. And in this case, they clearly did not score that sum according to said user.

    And i can agree with him. But on the basis of i personally found it not in good taste to take a cultures concepts like that and display them so poorly.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Again, people trying to attribute things to MoP that have been in Warcraft since the RTS games.

    Trying to avoid conflict for the sake of conflict has been a recurring theme in Warcraft for some time. The storyline has never just been, "durr kill the other side cuz that's the story".
    Sorry what?
    Warcraft IS "kill the other side".
    Even when facing a boss. Lootship for example in icc.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    I disagree with basically everything you just said of MoP, but I see this thread as a flamebait simply because of your last sentence.
    And what was the purpose of this rant other than to just put your opinion out there while you could have in any established threads, which you have.
    Yeah agree completely with you about the flamebait, so obvious from the last sentence. Pretty ridiculous...

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Sorry what?
    Warcraft IS "kill the other side".
    Even when facing a boss. Lootship for example in icc.
    Yeah, this is right up there with "Warcraft never had humor!" in terms of ignorance.

    If you don't like MoP, that's fine. Don't try to pretend that the Warcraft setting was always something it wasn't, though.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    No sorry mate but he's right. You're simply forced this message "war is bad we should cooperate" down your throat constantly.
    I have anduin next to me, and I can't skin him alive and have varian wath me wearin his skin. Why? Because garrosh baaaaad war baaaad.
    This is the kind of "pandaren approach" you're forced to accept.
    Absolutely foreign to the game. I kill allys because that's what I do. I made sure I slaughtered every human in hillsbrad with my lock pre cata.
    That's what the game is about.
    Horde vs alliance + some shit on the side
    Not his absolutely uncomfortable, unnecessary and foreign concept of "war is bad mmmkay?"
    Because is war is bad, Warcraft is bad.
    You're rather blind then because up until Wrath of the Lich King there was never any real Alliance vs Horde conflict within the story. It was all player-driven.

    World of Warcraft in general has basically always been centered around the player races of Azeroth facing some big baddy or a group of big baddies. Hell, the game didn't even have game-organized PvP for about 8 months.

    Mists of Pandaria is the expansion that actually brought faction conflict to THE center of the story.

    Both of you are about as right as Kael'thas is a dwarf. The idea that war is bad and we should cooperate hasn't been shoved down our throats at all, it's simply the end lesson of the expansion and an idea perpetuated by a couple individuals. The pandaren don't reference it all that much. Taran Zhu is the biggest mouthpiece for that and in an entire year he mentions it enough that I can count it on one hand. Most of the time when we see pandaren, they're simply trying to live life. Deal with problems that are relevant to them.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2013-12-12 at 07:09 PM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, this is right up there with "Warcraft never had humor!" in terms of ignorance.

    If you don't like MoP, that's fine. Don't try to pretend that the Warcraft setting was always something it wasn't, though.
    Sorry but what exactly do you mean?
    What exactly would the settings of Warcraft be?

  11. #251
    Pandaren Monk Doorsfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    Again, light-heartedness isn't inherently comedic.
    Their characterization of being light-hearted in general makes them terrible?

    I'd argue otherwise. They're a breath of fresh air in an otherwise cripplingly depressing world. They add contrast and in Mists of Pandaria, add a means of judging what we've done and how bad it is.
    Warcraft has never been about being lighthearted. The very name implies war. And the craft of said war.

    The big reason, big lore characters were big to begin with wasn't because they were lighthearted nor because they were comical or Silly. They were individuals who made tough choises, went through tragedies and turned from having a very good outlook, to the complete opposite (i.e Arthas)

    Now, you could try to argue that it's "fresh" - But if you don't like what is in essence YEARS of doing and YEARS of Thematic.. When A LOT of people follow that theme that has been around for YEARS... Yeah. You're probably not a majority then. WoD supports this idea. Because the developers themselves said they want to go back to what feels as "Warcraft".

    Pandas being portrayed as light hearted, silly alcoholics - at least as far as i am concerned.. Does NOT fit the earlier theme that has been Warcraft in any aspect whatsoever. It would be a pretty hard argument to make as well that it would not break off TOO hard from that running theme of you know, people you come to love and apprechiate who then turn to destroy everything they ever had.

    TL;DR - Silly Alcoholic Pandas does not match up to lengthy lore-heavy and lore-enriched characters who meet their fate.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyranthian View Post
    Since when was wow ever serious? Its always been tongue in cheek and full of pop culture references. I was actually just lamenting the other day that there isn't ENOUGH tongue in cheek stuff in MoP. I was hoping for a lot more Monkey Magic references
    And poop jokes, there are lots of those. How many quests are given to you from someone in an outhouse or requires you to interact with poop in someway?

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Just as a note, it's not that they are pandas - it's their characterization. Same with the hozen. Horde should have had yaungol instead and hozen could've been a silly faction that just fights the grummles.
    The Horde has already gone through the sort of scenario Yaungols would have played out. They did it in WotLK, with the Taunka. The Hozen were something new, and dare I say interesting. The game has several races that live thousands of years. It's only got one that dies of old age at 20. The Hozen were an exploration of that concept, of what sort of society would emerge in a race that was so short-lived. A society reminiscent of the one from Lord of the Flies. Playful and lazy in one moment and insane, vicious bastards the next, not because they're stupid but because they never get a chance to learn any better. They're the only non-insectoid race that swarms like locusts. And the Horde militarizes them. Think about how old they are for a second. They are all child soldiers at that point. It was a fairly poignant scene when Cho showed up and found them marching in formation. That story could not have been told with the Yaungol.

    The point is, every scene where they were depicted being silly had a serious purpose. Except possibly the feces catapult. But we got that instead of yet another quest to dig through X animal's leavings, so it balances out.

  14. #254
    Mists of Pandaria is the expansion that actually brought faction conflict to THE center of the story.

    That's the funny part. People go on and on about "cutsey pandas" and "kiddie storyline" but ultimately MoP had more "Alliance vs. Horde" baked into the story than any other expansion, and was actually a pretty harsh genocidal "horrors of war" sort of story compared to previous ones.

    In general people who wanted to hate MoP are just going to invent reasons to not like it. The whole, "Pandas and Pokemon" stuff is just a way to bash the game when they don't have any real reasons that they can articulate.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mister Madgod View Post
    You're rather blind then because up until Wrath of the Lich King there was never any real Alliance vs Horde conflict within the story. It was all player-driven.

    World of Warcraft in general has basically always been centered around the player races of Azeroth facing some big baddy or a group of big baddies.

    Mists of Pandaria is the expansion that actually brought faction conflict to THE center of the story.

    Both of you are about as right as Kael'thas is a dwarf. The idea that war is bad and we should cooperate hasn't been shoved down our throats at all, it's simply the end lesson of the expansion and an idea perpetuated by a couple individuals. The pandaren don't reference it all that much. Taran Zhu is the biggest mouthpiece for that and in an entire year he mentions it enough that I can count it on one hand. Most of the time when we see pandaren, they're simply trying to live life. Deal with problems that are relevant to them.
    When I hear things like this I actually wonder if people played this game in vanilla (drums of war thunder once again, it's in the cinematics for fucks sake), tbc (every zone had pvp areas), and wotlk (we kill each other in front of arthas in icc).

  16. #256
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doorsfan View Post
    Warcraft has never been about being lighthearted. The very name implies war. And the craft of said war.

    The big reason, big lore characters were big to begin with wasn't because they were lighthearted nor because they were comical or Silly. They were individuals who made tough choises, went through tragedies and turned from having a very good outlook, to the complete opposite (i.e Arthas)

    Now, you could try to argue that it's "fresh" - But if you don't like what is in essence YEARS of doing and YEARS of Thematic.. When A LOT of people follow that theme that has been around for YEARS... Yeah. You're probably not a majority then. WoD supports this idea. Because the developers themselves said they want to go back to what feels as "Warcraft".

    Pandas being portrayed as light hearted, silly alcoholics - at least as far as i am concerned.. Does NOT fit the earlier theme that has been Warcraft in any aspect whatsoever. It would be a pretty hard argument to make as well that it would not break off TOO hard from that running theme of you know, people you come to love and apprechiate who then turn to destroy everything they ever had.

    TL;DR - Silly Alcoholic Pandas does not match up to lengthy lore-heavy and lore-enriched characters who meet their fate.
    Mind showing where they're displayed as this?

    Like, seriously. I feel like you're making up a bullshit reason to justify your own reason. Tell me where they're dispalyed as Alcoholic and Silly?

    The Pandaren I ran into dealt with matters of genocide, sacrifice, loss, and meaning.

    But since they have a big belly and talk in a different accent/language you do they're silly alcoholics, right?

    inb4 angry response

  17. #257
    Pandas being portrayed as light hearted, silly alcoholics - at least as far as i am concerned.. Does NOT fit the earlier theme that has been Warcraft in any aspect whatsoever.
    Can I ask how you can kick Pandaren under the bus for not being serious but make no mention of Gnomes?

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  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post

    That's the funny part. People go on and on about "cutsey pandas" and "kiddie storyline" but ultimately MoP had more "Alliance vs. Horde" baked into the story than any other expansion, and was actually a pretty harsh genocidal "horrors of war" sort of story compared to previous ones.

    In general people who wanted to hate MoP are just going to invent reasons to not like it. The whole, "Pandas and Pokemon" stuff is just a way to bash the game when they don't have any real reasons that they can articulate.
    Yes, but always with a reminder that "we're doing it wrong we shouldn't kill ourselves".
    Foreign concept for this game.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Yes, but always with a reminder that "we're doing it wrong we shouldn't kill ourselves".
    Foreign concept for this game.
    Not foreign at all. Did you bitch like this when Alliance and Horde teamed up to deal with the Qiraji?

    Did you bitch when the Naaru encouraged Horde and Alliance to set aside their differences in Shattrath?

    Did you bitch when Thrall - the leader of the Horde - was essentially trying to be a huge peacemaker his entire reign?

    Did you bitch when Tirion brought the Horde and Alliance together against their common enemy?

    Again, people keep claming that Warcraft was something it wasn't in order to attack MoP. It's ridiculous.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2013-12-12 at 07:18 PM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Doorsfan View Post
    Warcraft has never been about being lighthearted. The very name implies war. And the craft of said war.

    The big reason, big lore characters were big to begin with wasn't because they were lighthearted nor because they were comical or Silly. They were individuals who made tough choises, went through tragedies and turned from having a very good outlook, to the complete opposite (i.e Arthas)

    Now, you could try to argue that it's "fresh" - But if you don't like what is in essence YEARS of doing and YEARS of Thematic.. When A LOT of people follow that theme that has been around for YEARS... Yeah. You're probably not a majority then. WoD supports this idea. Because the developers themselves said they want to go back to what feels as "Warcraft".

    Pandas being portrayed as light hearted, silly alcoholics - at least as far as i am concerned.. Does NOT fit the earlier theme that has been Warcraft in any aspect whatsoever. It would be a pretty hard argument to make as well that it would not break off TOO hard from that running theme of you know, people you come to love and apprechiate who then turn to destroy everything they ever had.

    TL;DR - Silly Alcoholic Pandas does not match up to lengthy lore-heavy and lore-enriched characters who meet their fate.
    Vanilla WoW had murlocs. And kobolds. And gnolls. TBC had the sporreggar, the naaru. Wrath had the oracles and the wolvar. Every iteration of the game has had poop quests. Every iteration of the game has had pop culture references and several silly bits.

    These are also patterns. Patterns from the beginning of the game.

    WoW has always had a light-hearted side despite its name and Mists of Pandaria is the epitome of this. You CAN focus on the more light-hearted, even silly bits, or you can take a look at the story and realize that this expansion has the most grit and war and darkness of any expansion before it.

    Even though they are a light-hearted race the pandaren can act seriously and have done so throughout this expansion. Chen wasn't all fun and games during the events leading up to the Darkspear Rebellion, even during then. Lorewalker Cho didn't floff about drunkenly when we were exploring the Mogu'shan Vaults (though no pandaren really did). Taran Zhu has never been silly.

    Warcraft is a pretty gritty universe... but it's never been purely gritty. It's always had it's light side. Even the strategy games.

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