New Shadow rotation!

[BobAwesome]

Yay! I like Mindspike. I love the animations of the two spikes just stabbing dudes in the dome.

[kardacz]

It's from a talent so you can just not pick the talent and use the standard rotation. I bet that some fights will be better with standard SP and others better with DC SP.

Ok that could be cool.

But remember were're talking about blizzard here. If they screw up and this ends up superior in any situation in comparison to the DoT rotation you'll be basically forced into a completely new playstyle that you might not like.

[Yvaelle]

Maybe you should go play Arcane, because it's not faceroll anymore, you actually have to manage mana. The more man you have the more damage you deal.


Snapshotting isn't hard.

The mage in my guild made this argument as well, here was my question to him - which he dodged rather than answered - maybe you can do better:

At what percent of mana do you make a change in your spell priorities?

The answer is that you don't - as far as I can tell - you might look at your mana bar very intently, stressing over the fact that it mysteriously keeps going down when you cast spells - but it doesn't impact your priorities at all. You do your normal rotation as often as you can get away with, and then you do cheaper spells when you are close to OOM.

At best, you start doing cheaper spells pre-emptively - so that you can evocate before the next burn phase and make it to 100% again - but at no point based on the mana in your pool, does your mana=damage mechanic impact your priorities. It's not complex, it's just a synergy: a thing that is happening.

[TyrantWave]

The mage in my guild made this argument as well, here was my question to him - which he dodged rather than answered - maybe you can do better:

At what percent of mana do you make a change in your spell priorities?

The answer is that you don't - as far as I can tell - you might look at your mana bar very intently, stressing over the fact that it mysteriously keeps going down when you cast spells - but it doesn't impact your priorities at all. You do your normal rotation as often as you can get away with, and then you do cheaper spells when you are close to OOM.

At best, you start doing cheaper spells pre-emptively - so that you can evocate before the next burn phase and make it to 100% again - but at no point based on the mana in your pool, does your mana=damage mechanic impact your priorities. It's not complex, it's just a synergy: a thing that is happening.

If you play Arcane like that, you'll be bottom of the meters. Its point is to use procs, barrage and gems to keep mana above 80% at all times.

[Kaesebrezen]

I wonder how they intend to balance it...

- It has to offset VT, SW:P and SA damage, including Mastery. That's ~100k DPS taking the BiS simcraft profile. Adding Mastery to Msp and Mb doesn't even add up to that. Getting more Mindblasts doesn't, getting more DPs also doesn't.
- It has to be a DPS increase, as the other two talent options also are
- DP DoT tick + Mindflay ~= Mindspike spam DPS, so you're pretty much forced into Insanity, or they expect us to use DP only for the initial hit (so no selfheal).
- Multi-Target with FDCL... have fun with that.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

The mage in my guild made this argument as well, here was my question to him - which he dodged rather than answered - maybe you can do better:

At what percent of mana do you make a change in your spell priorities?

The answer is that you don't - as far as I can tell - you might look at your mana bar very intently, stressing over the fact that it mysteriously keeps going down when you cast spells - but it doesn't impact your priorities at all. You do your normal rotation as often as you can get away with, and then you do cheaper spells when you are close to OOM.

At best, you start doing cheaper spells pre-emptively - so that you can evocate before the next burn phase and make it to 100% again - but at no point based on the mana in your pool, does your mana=damage mechanic impact your priorities. It's not complex, it's just a synergy: a thing that is happening.

Arcane is one of the hardest classes to master atm (I have all classes but Rogue and Monk at 90). There is just sooooo much extra dmg to be gained by good abuse of Alter Time, Mana gems and AM procs.

And yes, if you play Arcane like that, you will be bottom of the Dps. This isn't Cata, you don't use Evocation.

On topic: I REALLY hope we don't have to use a MB-MS rotation. Brings back bad memories of the horrendous t13 4set. We are a DoT-class, let us keep our DoTs.

[Purple]

Mind Spike is a boring spell visually. Mind Blast is a boring spell visually and mechanically. Mind Flay has at least always been visually definitive, and a channeled damamage over time spell, as a part of a core rotation, is something you didn't see too often before DAoC's Heretic. I've always thought Mind Flay was one of the few spells that lived up to Shadow's reputation as a, "You roll it for the visuals" sort of class, along with Shadowform itself.

The reality is our only spells that really have a good visual outside Shadowform (a form more than a spell) and Mindflay.. I'd probably only count SW: Death, Mind Sear and the Shadow orbs (or ravens) themselves (again, not really a spell) as those things. Void Tendrils if you have it, or Psyfiend.

The Shadow Fiend is always fun visually, and Mind Bender, but they're more often lost in the details of a large scale fight.

Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, Mind Blast, Mind Spike, Vampiric Embrace, Void Shift and Psychic Scream are very visually muted spells.

Mind Blast and Mind Spike being a part of a core rotation, even if it is just from a particular talent, is just boring to me. Especially on a visual level. If they're really going to do this they need to give these spells something visually potent. They also, for me at least, need to make them more mechanically interesting. I'd further note that Mind Spike isn't just visually boring, and barely noticeable, but it also just plain looks stupid. I've always hated the concept. Mind Spike is my big problem here, but Mind Blast has one of those visuals you'll never really see unless you're really looking for it.

Our DoTs have always been some tiny effect when applied, at best, and then nothing but damage numbers with every pulse. There's nothing visually interesting there. It's always come down to Mind Flay, and, later, Mind Sear, to give us any visual satisfaction. So, it's not really a new problem that a new DD rotation would be visually boring outside of Mind Flay, but it doesn't change the fact that it's going to be boring outside of Mind Flay (or Mind Sear).

-

Obviously the level 90 talents are very visually present.

-

Outside of my visual issues with this, I see this as a problem. Period. Balance of classes, specs and their rotations in WoW's balancing history tells me that, inevitably, one of these rotations will be outright better, hands down, no contest. That means if you want to be a viable Shadow Priest you'll end up forced into the better of the two rotations. Mark my words.

[stenbumling89]

ya will pretty much force us into Insanity and ToF (or maybe PI in certain situations), to give us a rotation of

- level90 talent on cd
- Mind spike till Mind Blast is off cd
- Mind blast
- When you have 3 orbs, DP, and channel insanity
- Repeat

Will be strong on single target, or single target with single adds

Still too early to know anything though. They could (and most likely will), completely change before getting out of beta.

sounds like an interesting and awarding playstyle

[Nestar]

ya will pretty much force us into Insanity and ToF (or maybe PI in certain situations), to give us a rotation of

- level90 talent on cd
- Mind spike till Mind Blast is off cd
- Mind blast
- When you have 3 orbs, DP, and channel insanity
- Repeat

Will be strong on single target, or single target with single adds

Still too early to know anything though. They could (and most likely will), completely change before getting out of beta.

You forgot the last step, Go oom in 45 seconds and sit around waiting for dispersion to come off cooldown again because you don't have VT on your bars.

[Kaesebrezen]

sounds like an interesting and awarding playstyle

What's awarding about that?

MB - MS MS MS MS - MB - MS MS MS MS - MB - DP - MF MF MF. Rinse and repeat. It's an extremely static rotation.

Also what Purple said: This rotation lacks any visual effect outside of the few Mindflay channels.

You forgot the last step, Go oom in 45 seconds and sit around waiting for dispersion to come off cooldown again because you don't have VT on your bars.

Because they can't just move the manareg somewhere else when you pick the talent?

[Nestar]

What's awarding about that?

MB - MS MS MS MS - MB - MS MS MS MS - MB - DP - MF MF MF. Rinse and repeat. It's an extremely static rotation.

Also what Purple said: This rotation lacks any visual effect outside of the few Mindflay channels.

Because they can't just move the manareg somewhere else when you pick the talent?

Even if they do, Can you imagine what's gonna happen if this becomes even remotely viable on a proper fight? Honestly it sounds like Grimoire of Sacrifice all over again, Do you remember the outcry on the forums/twitter when they buffed it initially, and it became a mandatory talent, Any and all good warlocks were outraged, as they should have been. You should never be able to max your class with a simplified rotation, It's just wrong. It should remain situational, eg solo'ing old instances where dots don't run long enough. Or Gimmick jobs on trash where you need to isolate targets and burn them down quick.

Keep in mind, the way its set up now, If this goes live, they have no choice but to remove Glyph of Mind Spike altogether, This will effectively replace it.

Almost forgot, Mindspike does have a visual, Its above the targets head, arrowish graphic slamming into the top of the model.

[Keosen]

SP it's about dots if you remove dots you "unshadowpriesting" us
Terrible idea in my opinion and it will make my decision to play something else after all these years easier, since i'm already fed up with blizzard's inability to make SPs interesting and polished like locks for example.

We are a dot class no reason to change this.

[Dierdre]

Arcane is one of the hardest classes to master atm (I have all classes but Rogue and Monk at 90). There is just sooooo much extra dmg to be gained by good abuse of Alter Time, Mana gems and AM procs.

Sure, you have to track your mana, but that doesn't make the spec neither harder nor more interesting. What exactly is so hard about staying over 80% mana and hitting bombs and AT on procs? Nothing harder than any other snapshot mechanics, which btw are gone with WoD too.

IMHO with snapshotting gone, fire is gonna suck, arcane is gonna suck (back to cata levels), affli is gonna suck, and shadow is gonna suck from a fun and rewarding gameplay point of view. Of course out of love I'll stick to my priest, but I will sure be playing my demo lock a lot more.

I agree with GC when he said addons (e.g. affdots) do most of the work for you these days when it comes to snapshotting, and that the gap between good proc management and bad proc management was too wide for an addon to be handling it. Sad thing is many of us learned to play DoT classes the hard time, long before the popularity of such addons. I DO use affdots, but I've only used it since august or so and I don't really pay much attention to it, I rely more on my custom made auras that do nothing but enlarge my active procs of interest. Being the nerd that I am, I know how much each of those procs are worth.

I am still waiting for exciting news for shadow on WoD, but with snapshotting gone things look rather bleak to me. Sure, it will be easier to balance us; but they'll be doing so at the cost of our decision making actually impacting our output meaningfully, which is exactly what I like about DoT specs.

[Relapses]

T13 "burst" rotation. Yay.

[Xorn]

Huh, that's not how I saw DC playing out at all. I would have thought a heavy Mastery build with FDCL and DI, and just the typical rotation. Though I suppose with 40% more damage to dot-less targets it might be worth it.

Maybe DP or MF will regenerate mana next expac, or maybe they'll give shadow a finisher that's a nuke and not a dot. Or, oh god, maybe they'll expect shadow to take a page out of Arcane's book and have two situational rotations: one for dealing damage, and another for conserving/regaining mana.

- - - Updated - - -

Even if they do, Can you imagine what's gonna happen if this becomes even remotely viable on a proper fight? Honestly it sounds like Grimoire of Sacrifice all over again, Do you remember the outcry on the forums/twitter when they buffed it initially, and it became a mandatory talent, Any and all good warlocks were outraged, as they should have been. You should never be able to max your class with a simplified rotation, It's just wrong. It should remain situational, eg solo'ing old instances where dots don't run long enough. Or Gimmick jobs on trash where you need to isolate targets and burn them down quick.

Keep in mind, the way its set up now, If this goes live, they have no choice but to remove Glyph of Mind Spike altogether, This will effectively replace it.

Almost forgot, Mindspike does have a visual, Its above the targets head, arrowish graphic slamming into the top of the model.

Rofl, no they weren't.

[Ayarea]

SP it's about dots if you remove dots you "unshadowpriesting" us
Terrible idea in my opinion and it will make my decision to play something else after all these years easier, since i'm already fed up with blizzard's inability to make SPs interesting and polished like locks for example.

We are a dot class no reason to change this.

That's my thoughts as well. If I wanted to be a non dotting class that could help offhealing when needed, I wouldn't have rolled a priest to begin with..

[Nestar]

Huh, that's not how I saw DC playing out at all. I would have thought a heavy Mastery build with FDCL and DI, and just the typical rotation. Though I suppose with 40% more damage to dot-less targets it might be worth it.

Maybe DP or MF will regenerate mana next expac, or maybe they'll give shadow a finisher that's a nuke and not a dot. Or, oh god, maybe they'll expect shadow to take a page out of Arcane's book and have two situational rotations: one for dealing damage, and another for conserving/regaining mana.

Rofl, no they weren't.

I remember reading a fairly substantial thread going into 5.1 and then again in 5.2 regarding the changes in that spell, The initial complaint was it made the rotation a joke and completely removed any form of pet management from the spec and then made it stronger on top of that, So strong infact, that it was almost mandatory all throughout 5.1. My point being there is never a suitable reason an easier talent should do more damage.

[Drye]

What's awarding about that?

MB - MS MS MS MS - MB - MS MS MS MS - MB - DP - MF MF MF. Rinse and repeat. It's an extremely static rotation.

^ this. If it is going to change the rotation we use from our current basic one, I don't see how that would be fun or rewarding. Shadow already has gotten rather dull, rotation wise. I would love to have all these people who think it's a great idea to explain why to me. Because I have yet to see why this would be fun, the only reason I've read is that, yay I get to use mind spike. I think this would be a fine talent for having to nuke down targets quickly, a full basic rotation change is a terrible idea. Because we all know how great blizzard is at balancing, so one of those talents are going to be very broken and I would hate for it to be this one.

Celestalon said they altered it so it's not just a MS/MB spam. So I would really like to see where they are since blizzcon. Gimme beta, plz.

[Yvaelle]

Gimme beta, plz.

Moi aussi, s'il vous plait!

[Leadfoot352]

The big thing that people are missing is that it's a talent, and it may end up not being optimal, but what it will do is something that I think is really needed for shadow, give you a way to change things up.
Priest is one of 3 classes that has only one option for how to dps, the others being paladin and monk. This matters because option and change is nice to have, some way to refresh your game is important for it's longevity. If every time you log in you do the same thing over and over it will get stale, which is something that everyone can agree happens in WoW, especially near the end of a raid tier. If you are, for example, main speccing as a fire mage you can, with a little work, switch over to frost and try out something different. You're gear may not be optimal, but you can always make adjustments to it or even carry another set. Priests don't have that option while staying within their role.
This talent, if you choose to take it, will give you another new and unique way to play your class. If it's not for you then you can simply play a different talent and keep with the same rotation that you currently use, plus or minus a few things.
Choice is the important part here, I for one think that this will be very cool, I may be dead wrong as it's still way to early to tell. More information is needed for us to go off of, but I think that any time you are given a choice, a real meaningful option, that you will get something worthwhile out of it, even if you choose not to take it.

Sorry for the text wall,
Leadfoot352