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  1. #141
    I'm actually very excited to see that not all snapshotting is going, glad to see it staying on some abilities despite generally disliking it. What I'd really like to see now, as the tech is still in the game to snapshot, is a set of glyphs that would allow you to continue to snapshot, possibly with another set of glyphs that simply increases the damage of the aforementioned dots. A very high end player, or any player that enjoys the playstyle, would be able to snapshot to his heart's content, while a player who doesn't enjoy the mechanic or is simply not very good at it yet would have the option to do similar, but not as high, damage. A delta would have to be determined as to how big a gap would be allowed, say 15%, and then the numbers just need to be tuned to match it.

    It would also allow players to choose to snapshot some dots while dynamically updating others giving them something to cast on the move. A demo warlock would be able to snapshot Doom if they wanted, but still have corruption update so it'll do more damage while they're in demon form. It would also let a player opt out of snapshotting on fights where it might not be beneficial or in a tier where there may not be a trinket that is good for snapshotting. I'd like to see a trinket that doesn't have a proc or on use at all, just gives flat stats all fight.

    I think that in the end it'd be a good compromise, snapshot if you want, don't if you don't, do competitive damage either way.

    Oh and on a partially related note, what if they allowed the new dot to snapshot? That could be the difference between it being a good talent and a great one, maybe not, but it was a thought.

    Rambling on now so best be going,
    Leadfoot352

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadfoot352 View Post
    A delta would have to be determined as to how big a gap would be allowed, say 15%, and then the numbers just need to be tuned to match it.
    That's precisely why snapshotting is gone, the gap between good and bad players with snapshotting is well above 20% which makes tuning a PITA. The affdots thing is just a lame excuse, otherwise DBM, weakauras, etc. would be gone too.

  3. #143
    Well all dots are going to get pandemic, which is a great mechanic. And they said they were going to do some dmg bonus the scales with haste towards the end of the dot duration, which will be interesting. I'm sure there will be some new added skill cap to dots that we don't know about yet. People are not upset that the ability of snapshottimg is going away it's that the class is going to be even easier now, or at least we know of. So most of the micro managing that we've had that distinguished good from bad players is being taken away. That's what people are upset about. But again, we don't know what is all going to come of because they really haven't released any info for classes yet. Just old lvl 100 talents that have totally changed and orb banking. That's all we know of so far for shadow.

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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    Well all dots are going to get pandemic, which is a great mechanic.
    It is... with snapshotting. Without snapshotting pandemic is more like "just hit whatever whenever, it doesn't really matter anymore". I too hope that some kind of skill cap is added.

  5. #145
    Brewmaster Alanar's Avatar
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    I just hope Shadow will become and stay competitive throughout the expansion for pvp aswell and not shine or be completely Op at the start and kinda meh at like 6.4 for example..

    Kinda OT here, but wouldn't you guys like to see some shadow lore next expansion? It all seems shaman related so far..what do you guys think?
    Last edited by Alanar; 2014-01-02 at 07:27 PM.


  6. #146
    Mechagnome soulyouth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I just hope Shadow will become and stay competitive throughout the expansion for pvp aswell and not shine or be completely Op at the start and kinda meh at like 6.4 for example..

    Kinda OT here, but wouldn't you guys like to see some shadow lore next expansion? It all seems shaman related so far..what do you guys think?
    TBH I hope shadow is a pile of shit in pvp in WOD, the pvp burst we have had in MoP is the sole reason we have been so dogshit in pve, any buff to our dmg would have got out of hand in pvp.

    Which comes back to my problem of all our dmg being loaded into DP and sw:i and not our dots, slow and steady dps > huge burst cycles

  7. #147
    Mechagnome shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
    Which comes back to my problem of all our dmg being loaded into DP and sw:i and not our dots, slow and steady dps > huge burst cycles
    The problem with that always seems to come back to multi-target fights and shadow priests keeping powerful DoTs up on two or three persistent targets.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
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  8. #148
    Mechagnome soulyouth's Avatar
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    That bugs me thought,why was that a problem ? Multidot had always been our niche, no idea why they nerfed our dots so hard in MoP and made us a burst class that sucked at single target and was behind the other dot classes on multitarget.

    They really let us down in this xpac.

  9. #149
    Don't you find Shadow really hard to enjoy? Granted my alt is badly geared but general mob killing is a bit of a chore itself I can't imagine having to dps in a raid, especially when having to move often. But I guess i'm biased towards my Lock.

    I see a few Spriests play competitively (dusk, iapeto, koiile) but the majority seems to be low-tier.

  10. #150
    Mechagnome shanthi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
    That bugs me thought,why was that a problem ? Multidot had always been our niche, no idea why they nerfed our dots so hard in MoP and made us a burst class that sucked at single target and was behind the other dot classes on multitarget.
    From what I can tell, the reason the designers considered that a problem was because they didn't want anyone to have "niches" that could be exploited via stacking...if shadow priests are way more powerful than others on council fights, some raid teams might try to bring multiple shadow priests for that fight. The design team, rightly or wrongly, believes in a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy and giving different classes disproportionate power in different types of fights encourages stacking different classes for different fights.

    That's my take on what the developers are thinking regarding making shadow priest DoTs powerful.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  11. #151
    So WOTLK Arcane Mage 2.0?

  12. #152
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    From what I can tell, the reason the designers considered that a problem was because they didn't want anyone to have "niches" that could be exploited via stacking...if shadow priests are way more powerful than others on council fights, some raid teams might try to bring multiple shadow priests for that fight. The design team, rightly or wrongly, believes in a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy and giving different classes disproportionate power in different types of fights encourages stacking different classes for different fights.

    That's my take on what the developers are thinking regarding making shadow priest DoTs powerful.
    That's what they say, but sometimes it feels like it applies almost exclusively to shadowpriests - if not hybrids more generally. Pures get niches for each spec, and hybrids with two DPS specs often get differentiation by spec. Shadow, having only one DPS spec, is usually trapped into a single niche - or worse - mediocre or bad at most things, and good but not 'the best' at one or two things.

    That second design is what they are aiming for, but it doesn't feel fun at all. It's not fun to be 'the worst' at single target (which we currently are), mediocre or bad at burst, 'the worst' at high mobility fights, and over-shadowed (QQ) by every other DoT spec (incl. WW's and Arcane mages) on council fights, and in some cases even non-DoT specs - just so we can be good at 'spread-out, add-wave, council-ish fights': Horridon, Elegon and Possessed Panda Protectors.

    Even on our best fight type, Affliction has the same niche - and they consistly destroy us at the one thing we're good at: which means you will never stack Shadowpriests in MoP - you will stack Locks (as everybody has done all expansion).

    Here is raidbots, and even in our most ideal fight this tier - we're 5th place, and we do about 2/3rds the DPS of an Affliction Lock. In the first tier of the expansion it was easy for people to point to this dilemma and say "well, Affliction is way overpowered - so that's why Shadow is not ideal for anything" - but it's been years now and it's only gotten worse: not only did we start way behind affliction on everything, they have been out-scaling us (with gear) all expansion.

    It's a persistent, systemic problem - and it's clearly by design: the vision statement for Shadow in MoP is probably scribbled on a whiteboard in Irvine somewhere as, "Like Affliction Locks, but never the ideal choice".

    It was far better when we had niche's that we excelled at - like multi-dot and especcially council fights - and things we were terrible at, like single target and burst fights. It meant we weren't ideal for progression on single target / burst fights, but most 99% of raid guilds would still progress with their best players: because only 1% of heroic raid guilds actively run multiple heroic raids a week to keep competitively geared heroic alts ready to swap in for specific fights (ie. Paragon, Blood Legion, and Vodka).

    Edit: All that said, personally I think it's the way they have tried to work raid healing stuff into our spec, and then counted that against our DPS budget - that is what truly holds us back from being competitive. They should shift us to a more cooldown-centric design (talking about support utility, VE being a good example), and away from the passive healing of Halo and Divine Star. I do miss being a TBC shadowpriest support class - but those days are over - and our healing-support doesn't fit the way WoW works anymore.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-01-03 at 12:48 AM.
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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Edit: All that said, personally I think it's the way they have tried to work raid healing stuff into our spec, and then counted that against our DPS budget - that is what truly holds us back from being competitive.
    That's been the excuse but I don't really buy it. Take enhancement shaman for instance. Even with our t90 talents they can outheal us with Healing Stream Totem alone, not to mention HTT and Ancestral Guidance, and they can outdps shadow in pretty much any fight except protectors and nazgrim.

    Shadow's suckiness through MoP was only to intentionally enhance warlock population. Every other argument (healing, void shift, mass dispel ffs ¬¬) was just a lame excuse.

  14. #154
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Shadow's suckiness through MoP was only to intentionally enhance warlock population. Every other argument (healing, void shift, mass dispel ffs ¬¬) was just a lame excuse.
    Agreed - I didn't mean so much that our healing was a legitimate reason for our lower DPS - but that it has been the official excuse they use to justify our performance: the actual reason is more likely because they want to deflate the spriest population and inflate the lock population - forcing us to 'bring the class, not the player'.

    If you look at the amount of raid utility a Lock brings, even healing via Fel Cookies and -1 raid members to heal (Locks don't take damage) - they bring pretty comparable HPS to a Shadowpriest, if people eat their cookies properly (add on their self-healing / reductions, and they surpass us - despite that we put actual effort towards healing to achieve what we do).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-01-03 at 04:13 AM.
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  15. #155
    Sounds boring as hell.

  16. #156
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
    That bugs me thought,why was that a problem ? Multidot had always been our niche, no idea why they nerfed our dots so hard in MoP and made us a burst class that sucked at single target and was behind the other dot classes on multitarget.

    They really let us down in this xpac.
    This hits the nail on the head..

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulyouth View Post
    TBH I hope shadow is a pile of shit in pvp in WOD, the pvp burst we have had in MoP is the sole reason we have been so dogshit in pve, any buff to our dmg would have got out of hand in pvp.

    Which comes back to my problem of all our dmg being loaded into DP and sw:i and not our dots, slow and steady dps > huge burst cycles
    Ooh cmon man. If I have to be honest! our surv went down according to tweets from Ghostcrawler. The 15 % dr removed because of pve reasons. I just hope pve doesnt make pvp suck for spriests.
    Same thing to say about our damage being not strong enough in pvp cus in pve it would be to strong. In general pvpers have equal reasons here or even more.
    Like I said i want to be competitive in pvp and not get shut down because of pve.


  18. #158
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    In PvP, we are not considered bursty in MoP - that's why we were best paired with 'bursty' specs like Frost Mages and Arms Warriors - because we don't really have it ourselves. Our job was always utility - which is why when they nerfed us it was a nerf to our survivability (making us good targets to sit on, shutting down our utility and damage), and our utility (mass dispel) - without which we aren't worth bringing anymore.

    If PvP burst were really the problem, they would have smoothed out DP like we were asking them to do (for PvE reasons) - but they didn't do that - I suspect because they were actually worried it would make our pvp burst too meaningless, if anything. In PvP gear, in arenas, we burst cycle for only about 150k - that's pretty trivial compared to the 'bursty' specs.
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  19. #159
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I've been less and less interested in shadow all expansion. I've been playing it steadily since very late BC/early Wrath but doubt that I will in WoD. For a lot of reasons we're in a weird spot right now: a bit too much like warlocks on the one hand and too much utility in a game that presently doesn't value the utility that we have because other classes collectively do most if not all of it better.

    I'm interested to see what they have in mind but it's a difficult spot to be in. We still have a lot of flavor and I think that most of us appreciate that but flavor is another thing that generally doesn't get you any respect as a class. Maybe if there is a real effort to remove the 'bring the player, not the class' business--something I think that has done more harm than good--classes can be repositioned in a way that will be interesting again.

    For myself, my very first end game character before shadow was frost but since it wasn't viable for PVE until recently I've never thought about going back to it. At this point, I'm giving it some careful consideration.

    Or maybe I need a change. It's difficult after all these years for me to separate out actual class issues from personal feelings about where we are. I'm deeply unhappy with shadow right now though and what I feared during a lot of Cataclysm--which I thought was very good for us, a bit too good in truth--has come to pass.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2014-01-06 at 05:23 PM.
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  20. #160
    I don't get some of you.

    I love my Shadow Priest and healing is what I enjoy the most.. but.. there is nothing like a Shadow Priest when you are out there.

    Love Shadow Orbs and Devouring Plague.
    Love Shadowform with Shadow glyph.
    Love Mind Flay and how the blue color from talent make me feel awesome.
    Shadow Orbs around you and the way they appear from quick ray of shadowligth.
    Love it.

    The most fun spell caster is Shadow Priest for me.

    The new level 100 talents add a new DoT used with Shadow Orbs is AWESOME.
    New way to play by increase damage 40% is AWESOME.

    Just using Mind Flay (yes, it is direct damage) and Mind Spike, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death and Devouring Plague.

    Even better talent can be getting more Shadow Orbs. Supporting the way things is now.

    3 different ways to play Shadow Priest. Same spec. Love that!!!

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