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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    From what I can tell, the reason the designers considered that a problem was because they didn't want anyone to have "niches" that could be exploited via stacking...if shadow priests are way more powerful than others on council fights, some raid teams might try to bring multiple shadow priests for that fight. The design team, rightly or wrongly, believes in a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy and giving different classes disproportionate power in different types of fights encourages stacking different classes for different fights.

    That's my take on what the developers are thinking regarding making shadow priest DoTs powerful.
    Warlocks. Whole Expac. Warlocks.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    And it might be OP. The point is, vary rarely are talents actually "balanced" and the possibility of this one being over tuned is very high. And for anyone is is worth a damn, people pick what is most optimal to help their raid succeed. This whole thing revolves around it being balanced, if it isn't then it's not a choice.

    I'm sorry, can you clarify where you're getting this sentiment from exactly? True, Blizzard occaisionally experiments with certain mechanics at the cost of player's sanity, but how else are they supposed to get reliable real world data? (that's a trick question, the answer is they can't, so please no "sim's" straw men). They will not allow a talent to completely overwrite one play style if their entire point is to provide two. Now, on a single target fight might this be the "best" choice by a slim margin? Possibly. But that's min/maxing tripe and if people really feel the need to justify their toxic elitist behavior by arguing how an incremental, minisicule, theoretical increase like that (and boy will they ever), then they can, but ultimately people will choose to play with the way they are comfortable proficient with. Also consider that at present the current, "traditional" play style of shadow priests is ridiculously inferior on fights were there are not 3+ extra targets for multi-dotting.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    I wouldn't say spamming two buttons is new and unique, in fact it's the exact opposite. It's almost as bad as a frost mage in Molten core. How would you describe spamming two buttons fun, not tracking any dots, not having to clip MF effectively. I rolled a shadow priest to have a complex and fun rotation, if I wanted a boring class to play I would have rolled a mage. No one has yet to come up with a logical answer as to why this would be fun, unique, innovative, or at all an improvement. To me, its a terrible idea and I really hope it gets scrapped.

    Haven't done a whole lot of reasoning on this one, have you? Two buttons? Try 5 - which is the magic number Blizzard has been aiming at since the end of WotLK. Mind Spike > Mind Blast > Devouring Plague > Shadow Word: Insanity > Shadow Word: Death (with the glyph, yes, that's right, Divine Clarity would actually make that glyph useful). Remember, it buffs all the non-damage over time spells, and SW is one of them. As it stands you'd have to spend the Shadow Orbs on Devouring Plague still, which means you'd wind up taking Solace/Insanity - FDCL is worthless as you won't be casting VT, and Mindbender isn't so much a viable option when you're casting DP anyway, unless your goal is to just be recalcitrant. Granted Blizz may shake it up and make it actually optional, but we won't know until we get the beta and start doing some math. /shrug


    Don't shout the sky is falling because Blizzard wants to give spriests an alternative playstyle (we've only got one damage spec after all), it could very well be the answer to spriests abyssmal competitiveness. That and PEWPEWPEW. Heh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinge View Post
    DoTs have defined Shadow as a class. I don't want them to go. I would have rolled a Mage if I just wanted to spam 3 buttons...
    DoTs have defined Afflication as a Spec too. And Warlocks have two other forms of inflicting top tier damage. I'd be far more affronted at the notion of an alternative to DoT's on shadow priests if we weren't the weakest damage dealer on any fight without 3+ adds and the 3rd weakest DoT damage dealing class (behind Warlock and Boomkin, respectively). And I'm talking about progressive end game people, not LFR - In order to be "good" at Shadow Priest you basically have to come out of the gate as a try hard, essentially like wearing weighted training gear. You get used to playing at such a disadvantage that you feel so good when you do well, when in reality all that extra effort should have you seated prominently at the #1 slot. It'd be less noticable if people were recruited and brought to raids based off their apptitude and ability, instead of how much potential damage they can/should be doing.

  3. #163
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowyFanatic View Post
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    I'm pleased that you feel the need to make a brand new account to post here. Carry on. <3

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  4. #164
    If we're talking about snapshotting, I'll say that it was fun in some cases (i.e., Theralion's Mirror mastery buff), but not in most others. I welcome the changes, but they will reduce the number of actions that Shadow Priests perform (since you won't need to re-DoT in many cases) if they don't add some other interesting mechanic to the rotation.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrael the Impatient View Post
    Love Shadowform with Shadow glyph.
    Shadowpriest Licence Revoked.
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmorgrim View Post
    Shadowpriest Licence Revoked.
    That's pretty much my sentiment as well. When people start going on in General Discussion about how their gear looks I get easily amused. I don't think anyone has clearly seen my gear in close to six years without doing an inspect. You either embrace the shadow or not.
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  7. #167
    That's the exact reason why I don't even bother with transmog in my Shadow Priest. I can't see it anyway.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by kardacz View Post
    That's the exact reason why I don't even bother with transmog in my Shadow Priest. I can't see it anyway.
    Not at all, the basic shape can be good or weird. But in general, i would never use the shadow glyph.

  9. #169

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post
    One of my favorite aspects of shadow was the two-dot rotation, especially with multiple adds. Spriest was synonymous with DoTs.

    But things change. And if it's fun, it's a good change. I'll play aff lock if I want to DoT.
    Comments like these, "seemingly informed" are saddening.

    First of all its a talent choice you can pick or bail out from. Just like petless hunter is a talent choice, or petless warlock. If they're balanced the DPS difference is neglectible for semi hardcore players (most of us here) so you either play the game less serious and play whatever talent you prefer or you are a hardcore (enough) player and must face the consequences of this which in this case means sometimes you have to adapt to a playstyle which isn't the one you prefer.

    Second, with this being one playstyle out of 2 talent choices, the other two talent choices provide a different playstyle, still evolving around dotting. I am sure there are people who don't like Mindbender or FDCL or DI or PI or whatever but these too are just talent choices. Why on earth a person would expect themselves to love 100% of their talent tree is beyond me.

    Third such a playstyle might be say the best on 33% of the fights. Which means there still should be other type of fights available. If Blizzard does their job well they will provide various types of interesting fights where different classes and playstyles can shine. Since we don't have an other DPS spec our class versatility comes from within our talent tree, much more than pures like warlock and mages. On a fight where multidot is going to be bad a shadow priest will for example opt for this talent whereas an affli dot is going to go destro or demo or gets benched/replaced/kicked.

    Fourth, snapshotting is gone which affects affliction AND shadow alike.

    And to the person above here who does not "understand" why multidot got nerfed. Wake up? It was OP? If you are single target one of the highest and then as soon as you can multidot for a long time (like V&T) you are doing almost twice that damage doesn't that strike as OP?
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    And to the person above here who does not "understand" why multidot got nerfed. Wake up? It was OP? If you are single target one of the highest and then as soon as you can multidot for a long time (like V&T) you are doing almost twice that damage doesn't that strike as OP?
    Shadow singletarget is so f***ing over the top , i can see why they nerfed multidotting so they don't continue to trainwreck everything in council fights AND dominate every high movement pure singletarget fight like Juggernaut as well. I mean, EVERY guild this expansion has been stacking shadows for EVERY fight in the game, because they do sick on the move damage while spamming pain without fucking up perfectly snapshotted dotlines and basically dont even go oom that way.

    And opening Burst , don't get me started on that dude. I mean , having an equally strong opener EVERY pull during progress is absolutely insane. All they need is 9- 24 other players having the tito pet and then wait for a laughable time period of just 2 minutes because immerseus Trinket procced while blasting cows. Lets be honest, if you search the term "quality of life" in google picture search, you'll se a picture of a Shadowpriest 2 Orb- Dp'ing Juggernaut because he got hit by a razorblade while Mindblasting for his 3orb and spamming Dp in the meantime to instantly Sw:I afterward. Sweet and definately not clunky gameplay is what i'd call that.

    Im so psyched that snapshotting is going away. Seriously , now the point has finally come where i can continue masturbating to pictures of female bloodelves while raiding because i can pay my 8yr old neighbour who plays elemental shaman to roll his face on my keyboard. I wouldn't even lose dps since the only difference between shadowpriest performances would be gear based , THATS what i'd call fair and rewarding gameplay.
    Last edited by Lazu; 2014-01-08 at 05:35 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazu View Post
    Shadow singletarget is so f***ing over the top , i can see why they nerfed multidotting so they don't continue to trainwreck everything in council fights AND dominate every high movement pure singletarget fight like Juggernaut as well. I mean, EVERY guild this expansion has been stacking shadows for EVERY fight in the game, because they do sick on the move damage while spamming pain without fucking up perfectly snapshotted dotlines and basically dont even go oom that way.
    As the V&T example suggests I was obviously talking about how multidot (and Shadow) was OP in Cata, and how multidotting got nerfed from there on.

    Shadow's weakness is damage on the move and single target. Every class needs to have some kind of weakness. In my opinion our strong points are pale compared to other, stronger classes whereas our weaknesses are severe handicaps. In other words in my opinion we deserve a buff right now however thjis thread isn't about that (currently the Shadow Word: Revolution thread is about that).

    The rest you wrote has nothing to do with what you quoted. If you don't want your Immerseus trinket to proc while shooting cows, simple solution: unequip it and you only have to wait 30 sec after equip for ICDs to be ready. The problem with Tito is not the Immerseus trinket. Its RPPM procs. We can add the ToF on pull macro to your list of inconveniences.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  13. #173
    The problem with juggling chainsaws with one hand on top of an elephant while wearing a fuchsia colored tutu is that it'll be hard for you to find matching shoes.

    ...

    Yes, that's how I felt after reading the Tito thing.

  14. #174
    In regards to the tito thing... that would kill your opener... since using MB on a cow would burn all your procs. Though without 3 orbs on a pull, shadow burst is pretty lackluster. And well, using tito's to charge orbs, and then wait for your proc timer to fully reset, would probably cost a progressing raid 2-3 pulls a night, which just isn't worth it.

    Shadow is still a relatively strong class. The problem is generally everyone comparing themselves to warlocks. They are overpowered. Every raider knows it, and exploits that point. Blizzard also knows it. The issue is, Blizzard needs to make up for how good shadow was at the end of cata, and for the overhaul to warlocks. At the start of MoP, a single spec (shadow) was more popular for DPS than pure dps classes (mage & warlocks). Mages have pretty much recovered their popularity. Warlocks, however, have not. The main issues probably having to do that its hard to balance warlocks around snappshotting (basically they're either too strong or too weak) and that there's enough difference between the 3 warlock specs that swapping between the 3 is not always clear cut to the average player.

    I felt snapshotting seemed to be ok with Blizzard until the mod wizards basically came around and made mods like greenlight which pretty much take the entire skillcap out of the picture. Then it was no longer an issue of people with skill and class knowledge benefiting, but the entire raiding population. Then it just became a beast to try and balance around.

    There will still be a slightly lower skillcap involved when it comes to on use buffs and procs, but that will be about making sure all your dots are rolling when the buff starts. You'll probably be macro'ing buff to DP, so that you can refresh SWP+VT, then hit your BBQ button with DP and all your cooldowns.

    PI is going to suffer immensely from the loss of snappshotting, except in instances with large amounts of aoe adds. Since most dot classes are getting a pandemic effect, you use your pandemic ability, then pop PI and watch stuff drop.

    The one thing that worries me is that every time Blizzard wants to make us more bursty and buff MB and SWD... (they've tried this twice now in BC and Cata) they go out of beta happy, and then as soon as PVP really gets in the swing... its "Oh... maybe that didn't work out so well. Guess we should nerf direct damage and buff dots."
    Then multidotting kicks in and the cycle repeats.

    Tbh part of the problem is that general PVP usually gets very little attention on the Beta. Sure you get the high end arena peeps that test stuff. You get the trolls on beta, but generally PVP just doesn't get the attention it needs on there. Most of the testing people do focuses on the PVE portion of the game. Thus, its usually not til the first or second patch that the PVP stuff really gets addressed.

    What I might like to see is a change to mindflay. Since overall, mindflay is highly risky spell to cast in PVP, I'd like to see mindflay's damage increase as it ticks on the target. The buff to the damage has a short duration, perhaps 3 seconds at most. Literally, bringing shadow weaving back in a mechanical sense. The major skill in single target shadow would come from properly weaving your shadow spells between mindflays.
    Last edited by Blackmorgrim; 2014-01-08 at 06:51 PM.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    If you don't want your Immerseus trinket to proc while shooting cows, simple solution: unequip it and you only have to wait 30 sec after equip for ICDs to be ready. The problem with Tito is not the Immerseus trinket. Its RPPM procs. We can add the ToF on pull macro to your list of inconveniences.
    Unequipping Immerseus and reequipping it will trigger the full IcD.As far as i know RPPM trinkets are reset as soon as you enter Boss Combat( might be wrong though but i never experienced any issues with BBoYS).
    What Morgrim said is partly right. On the first Progress pulls where you're nowhere near the kill it's Bullshit to wait for orb banking. But as soon as you reach the point where the kill is near you SHOULD definately wait. Especially on Encounters with Lust pulls which is most of the "Hard" ones, since the difference between a 3 orb and a 0 Orb Lust opener is huge. We are talking about a 700-800k spike at best with 0 Orbs versus 1,3-1.5 Million with 3. Especially on Fights like Thok and Malkorok this Opening Burst is essential.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    The problem with juggling chainsaws with one hand on top of an elephant while wearing a fuchsia colored tutu is that it'll be hard for you to find matching shoes.

    ...

    Yes, that's how I felt after reading the Tito thing.
    Which is exactly what i meant. You might have detected the slight hint of sarcasm throughout the post. My message is that playing shadow to its absolute maximum is a massive PITA. I dont know any other specc whose Dps is reliant on either the first pull after trash or random pet proccs pre pull. Ridiculous.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowyFanatic View Post
    I'm sorry, can you clarify where you're getting this sentiment from exactly? True, Blizzard occaisionally experiments with certain mechanics at the cost of player's sanity, but how else are they supposed to get reliable real world data? (that's a trick question, the answer is they can't, so please no "sim's" straw men). They will not allow a talent to completely overwrite one play style if their entire point is to provide two. Now, on a single target fight might this be the "best" choice by a slim margin? Possibly. But that's min/maxing tripe and if people really feel the need to justify their toxic elitist behavior by arguing how an incremental, minisicule, theoretical increase like that (and boy will they ever), then they can, but ultimately people will choose to play with the way they are comfortable proficient with. Also consider that at present the current, "traditional" play style of shadow priests is ridiculously inferior on fights were there are not 3+ extra targets for multi-dotting.






    Haven't done a whole lot of reasoning on this one, have you? Two buttons? Try 5 - which is the magic number Blizzard has been aiming at since the end of WotLK. Mind Spike > Mind Blast > Devouring Plague > Shadow Word: Insanity > Shadow Word: Death (with the glyph, yes, that's right, Divine Clarity would actually make that glyph useful). Remember, it buffs all the non-damage over time spells, and SW is one of them. As it stands you'd have to spend the Shadow Orbs on Devouring Plague still, which means you'd wind up taking Solace/Insanity - FDCL is worthless as you won't be casting VT, and Mindbender isn't so much a viable option when you're casting DP anyway, unless your goal is to just be recalcitrant. Granted Blizz may shake it up and make it actually optional, but we won't know until we get the beta and start doing some math. /shrug


    Don't shout the sky is falling because Blizzard wants to give spriests an alternative playstyle (we've only got one damage spec after all), it could very well be the answer to spriests abyssmal competitiveness. That and PEWPEWPEW. Heh.

    - - - Updated - - -



    DoTs have defined Afflication as a Spec too. And Warlocks have two other forms of inflicting top tier damage. I'd be far more affronted at the notion of an alternative to DoT's on shadow priests if we weren't the weakest damage dealer on any fight without 3+ adds and the 3rd weakest DoT damage dealing class (behind Warlock and Boomkin, respectively). And I'm talking about progressive end game people, not LFR - In order to be "good" at Shadow Priest you basically have to come out of the gate as a try hard, essentially like wearing weighted training gear. You get used to playing at such a disadvantage that you feel so good when you do well, when in reality all that extra effort should have you seated prominently at the #1 slot. It'd be less noticable if people were recruited and brought to raids based off their apptitude and ability, instead of how much potential damage they can/should be doing.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    From what I can tell, the reason the designers considered that a problem was because they didn't want anyone to have "niches" that could be exploited via stacking...if shadow priests are way more powerful than others on council fights, some raid teams might try to bring multiple shadow priests for that fight. The design team, rightly or wrongly, believes in a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy and giving different classes disproportionate power in different types of fights encourages stacking different classes for different fights.

    That's my take on what the developers are thinking regarding making shadow priest DoTs powerful.
    Let me tell you a story. Last time, people were looking for more for a Flex pug and even though I had the necessary gear and achi, I've gotten this response:

    Nah, Shadowpriests do 15% less dmg than any other class, no thanks. This means that people won't be stacking Shadowpriests for council-type fights but they most likely would not invite Shadowpriests in general when another equally geared/equally skilled class comes in play. Fantastic

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Let me tell you a story. Last time, people were looking for more for a Flex pug and even though I had the necessary gear and achi, I've gotten this response:

    Nah, Shadowpriests do 15% less dmg than any other class, no thanks. This means that people won't be stacking Shadowpriests for council-type fights but they most likely would not invite Shadowpriests in general when another equally geared/equally skilled class comes in play. Fantastic
    Okey.. that is just racis... inner inner sad stuff


  19. #179
    "It'd be less noticable if people were recruited and brought to raids based off their apptitude and ability, instead of how much potential damage they can/should be doing."

    Tbh, this one quote really just got to me. The WORLD would be different if more people thought like this. However, most people in WoW and the rest of the world hire/accept people based on statistical data/past experience. They don't know you, and in general they pick from the pool of applicants most likely to succeed, rather than trying out all 40 dozen people to find the most apt one.

    But in regards to the rotation, the 'dotless spec' would probably have 5 buttons at you said. Although, with the current implementation of SWD glyph, it wouldn't really be part of the rotation except for movement. SWD outside of execute range is pathetic, and if I'm going to spend a gcd on SWD or MS, MS will trump it hands down. Glyph of mind spike would probably be more likely, however. Outside of execute, the main rotation would be 4 buttons.

    Also, I'd have to say Mindbender would almost be a requirement in that spec. Without the mana regeneration from VT, the dotless spec would burn through mana like a fiend. Mindbender would need to take up that slack, and it probably still wouldn't be enough. The dotless spec would probably act similar to arcane in respect to mana consumption, which means it would need to have some decently high output. Otherwise you'd have to resort flopping back and forth from dotless mode to regenerating mana with VT.

    Secondly, with regards to min/maxing 'tripe' there are times that, yes, the difference is within the statistical margin of error. When you complete for top tier rankings, 2-3% can be the difference between a kill or a wipe. Just because you might have trouble understanding the work behind theorycrafting doesn't make it more or less true. Blizzard has occasionally implemented things that just don't work out as intended. Part of min/maxing is just that, find what works, regardless of whether it was originally intended or not. When you're not a numbers guy, sometimes you just don't see every angle. When you work the numbers, its not about what should or shouldn't be, its about what is and what appears to give the best result based on the data at hand. You work it out, you check the results, and accept them... even if you don't like the answer.

    In general though, when I see someone talk about 'min/maxing tripe,' "toxic elitist behavior," and that "everyone plays how they are most comfortable" it kind of weakens any argument you have. Rather than sounding like someone with some real understanding of theorycrafting or actual experience in high end raiding; it makes you sound more like someone who tried to get into a heroic guild, and then got booted because they 'played how they were most comfortable' rather than stepping up to do some real research into how their class actually worked. Rather than doing the work, they then justified their playstyle by dismissing the theorycrafting as BS, and that they were kicked out by players with 'toxic' and 'elitist' ideals, not by any shortcoming of their own.

    I don't think Drye really feels the sky is falling with the Dotless spec. However, I think we've spoken many times within the H2P circle that the Dotless spec is just very 'anti-shadow' in our opinion. Also, almost any time Blizzard tries to make shadow more dependent on direct damage spells it almost immediately backfires on them when the pvp season starts. Happened in both BC and Cata. I think we're more just skeptical in seeing how Blizz handles it, because if they really want it to work out, it could easily result in multiple patches of changes messing up the dotted specs. That, I think is a better explanation of the high possibility to be overtuned, especially with the addition of the new crit bonus and multistrike stats.

    I too believe Blizzard wouldn't allow one spec to dominate the other two. However, sometimes it just happens because of unforeseen consequences. That's what makes 'min/maxing tripe' even more important! You play with the numbers to see what gives an advantage, hopefully to give some good feedback when things seem out of line.
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  20. #180
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    R.I.P. Snapshotting. The only thing separating Goods from greats and one of the great nuances of playing a dot class that kept me loving Shadow priests and feral druids so much Will get to watch more tv while I raid now so as not to get too bored., lol

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