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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    From what I can tell, the reason the designers considered that a problem was because they didn't want anyone to have "niches" that could be exploited via stacking...if shadow priests are way more powerful than others on council fights, some raid teams might try to bring multiple shadow priests for that fight. The design team, rightly or wrongly, believes in a "bring the player, not the class" philosophy and giving different classes disproportionate power in different types of fights encourages stacking different classes for different fights.

    That's my take on what the developers are thinking regarding making shadow priest DoTs powerful.
    Let me tell you a story. Last time, people were looking for more for a Flex pug and even though I had the necessary gear and achi, I've gotten this response:

    Nah, Shadowpriests do 15% less dmg than any other class, no thanks. This means that people won't be stacking Shadowpriests for council-type fights but they most likely would not invite Shadowpriests in general when another equally geared/equally skilled class comes in play. Fantastic

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Let me tell you a story. Last time, people were looking for more for a Flex pug and even though I had the necessary gear and achi, I've gotten this response:

    Nah, Shadowpriests do 15% less dmg than any other class, no thanks. This means that people won't be stacking Shadowpriests for council-type fights but they most likely would not invite Shadowpriests in general when another equally geared/equally skilled class comes in play. Fantastic
    Okey.. that is just racis... inner inner sad stuff


  3. #183
    "It'd be less noticable if people were recruited and brought to raids based off their apptitude and ability, instead of how much potential damage they can/should be doing."

    Tbh, this one quote really just got to me. The WORLD would be different if more people thought like this. However, most people in WoW and the rest of the world hire/accept people based on statistical data/past experience. They don't know you, and in general they pick from the pool of applicants most likely to succeed, rather than trying out all 40 dozen people to find the most apt one.

    But in regards to the rotation, the 'dotless spec' would probably have 5 buttons at you said. Although, with the current implementation of SWD glyph, it wouldn't really be part of the rotation except for movement. SWD outside of execute range is pathetic, and if I'm going to spend a gcd on SWD or MS, MS will trump it hands down. Glyph of mind spike would probably be more likely, however. Outside of execute, the main rotation would be 4 buttons.

    Also, I'd have to say Mindbender would almost be a requirement in that spec. Without the mana regeneration from VT, the dotless spec would burn through mana like a fiend. Mindbender would need to take up that slack, and it probably still wouldn't be enough. The dotless spec would probably act similar to arcane in respect to mana consumption, which means it would need to have some decently high output. Otherwise you'd have to resort flopping back and forth from dotless mode to regenerating mana with VT.

    Secondly, with regards to min/maxing 'tripe' there are times that, yes, the difference is within the statistical margin of error. When you complete for top tier rankings, 2-3% can be the difference between a kill or a wipe. Just because you might have trouble understanding the work behind theorycrafting doesn't make it more or less true. Blizzard has occasionally implemented things that just don't work out as intended. Part of min/maxing is just that, find what works, regardless of whether it was originally intended or not. When you're not a numbers guy, sometimes you just don't see every angle. When you work the numbers, its not about what should or shouldn't be, its about what is and what appears to give the best result based on the data at hand. You work it out, you check the results, and accept them... even if you don't like the answer.

    In general though, when I see someone talk about 'min/maxing tripe,' "toxic elitist behavior," and that "everyone plays how they are most comfortable" it kind of weakens any argument you have. Rather than sounding like someone with some real understanding of theorycrafting or actual experience in high end raiding; it makes you sound more like someone who tried to get into a heroic guild, and then got booted because they 'played how they were most comfortable' rather than stepping up to do some real research into how their class actually worked. Rather than doing the work, they then justified their playstyle by dismissing the theorycrafting as BS, and that they were kicked out by players with 'toxic' and 'elitist' ideals, not by any shortcoming of their own.

    I don't think Drye really feels the sky is falling with the Dotless spec. However, I think we've spoken many times within the H2P circle that the Dotless spec is just very 'anti-shadow' in our opinion. Also, almost any time Blizzard tries to make shadow more dependent on direct damage spells it almost immediately backfires on them when the pvp season starts. Happened in both BC and Cata. I think we're more just skeptical in seeing how Blizz handles it, because if they really want it to work out, it could easily result in multiple patches of changes messing up the dotted specs. That, I think is a better explanation of the high possibility to be overtuned, especially with the addition of the new crit bonus and multistrike stats.

    I too believe Blizzard wouldn't allow one spec to dominate the other two. However, sometimes it just happens because of unforeseen consequences. That's what makes 'min/maxing tripe' even more important! You play with the numbers to see what gives an advantage, hopefully to give some good feedback when things seem out of line.
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  4. #184
    Stood in the Fire Koilie's Avatar
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    R.I.P. Snapshotting. The only thing separating Goods from greats and one of the great nuances of playing a dot class that kept me loving Shadow priests and feral druids so much Will get to watch more tv while I raid now so as not to get too bored., lol

  5. #185
    I'd agree with you if mods like greenlight didn't take the place of the skill involved. I think Blizz pretty much felt the same way. Not to say that dynamic dots won't have their own nuances. Since everyone's getting a pestilence type ability, spread your dots, pop PI, and any on use cds. Watch stuff drop.
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by ShottyMcShot View Post
    R.I.P. Snapshotting. The only thing separating Goods from greats and one of the great nuances of playing a dot class that kept me loving Shadow priests and feral druids so much Will get to watch more tv while I raid now so as not to get too bored., lol
    Don't give up on feral. They're keeping snapshotting.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazu View Post
    Unequipping Immerseus and reequipping it will trigger the full IcD.As far as i know RPPM trinkets are reset as soon as you enter Boss Combat( might be wrong though but i never experienced any issues with BBoYS).
    Tested it and you're right. The difference between 0 and 3 orbs is huge. They fixed Moonkin Eclipse in MoP (Ancestral Communion) I hope they fix Shadow Orb in WoD #notrerollingyet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmorgrim View Post
    "But in regards to the rotation, the 'dotless spec' would probably have 5 buttons at you said. Although, with the current implementation of SWD glyph, it wouldn't really be part of the rotation except for movement. SWD outside of execute range is pathetic, and if I'm going to spend a gcd on SWD or MS, MS will trump it hands down. Glyph of mind spike would probably be more likely, however. Outside of execute, the main rotation would be 4 buttons.

    Also, I'd have to say Mindbender would almost be a requirement in that spec. Without the mana regeneration from VT, the dotless spec would burn through mana like a fiend. Mindbender would need to take up that slack, and it probably still wouldn't be enough. The dotless spec would probably act similar to arcane in respect to mana consumption, which means it would need to have some decently high output. Otherwise you'd have to resort flopping back and forth from dotless mode to regenerating mana with VT.
    You assume you never dot up anything. This is not true. You can dot up the boss with VT for mana and mind spike targets with low TTL. Case in point: Norushen (esp farm).
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Don't give up on feral. They're keeping snapshotting.
    If I recall its only tiger's fury that's retaining snapshotting, they'll be losing the mastery/crit/attackpower snapshotting just like we are.

  9. #189
    At Blackmogrim - The game's biggest weakness thus far, in my opinion, is that it has yet to capture (or recapture, I really enjoyed WotLK) a balance between content that the hardcore and the non-hardcore (not to be confused with the fluctuating definition of "casual") in regards to PvE. Now, Mythic difficulty may very well provide that distinction; we shall see. My point is that min/maxing, and building the game around min/maxing caters to one kind of player, the hardcore. Cataclysm, for it's myriad of problems, was rife with features that really appeared to the hardcore endgame players. This was a terrible design because while these might be the community within the game that receives a lot of press, it is not by any means representative of the larger player population, and creates a game environment that is more frustrating than challenging.

    The reason I have my feelings about min/maxing and call it tripe, has to do with the entire concept that people should bring players based on their capability as a player, not on theoretical figures that estimate performance. And contrary to what anyone on here claims, any guild that has even the faintest illusion of being "competitive" (side note: unless you're fighting for top 5/faction or top 10/server, give it a rest, there's no reward in rushing through content and stressing out over it unless your ego desperately needs that realm wide achievement, and unless you're in the top 3 of competitive guilds, it's not even something to fantasize about) will arrange it's raid comp based on the largest mathematical gain possible, ESPECIALLY when it's something as noticeable as ~12-15% in performance. And as for achievements which lead to things like mounts? Rushing through content, while devoting as much time to this game as one would at a part time, or in some cases full time job, is not fun, especially with the kind of things raid leaders wind up saying to their groups as they get frustrated (10 guilds worth of degenerate, negative put downs that never address personal failure or the failure of their friends later and I said goodbye to even "casual" raiding). Is Blizz heinously bad at releasing content in a timely fashion? Oh yes, in fact, the only people who should be paying subscriptions from this point out are people who are devoted to PvP - the expansion won't be out for 4, probably 5 months, and the fact that you'd be paying a fee to test their beta for them is ludicrous.

    Let's be honest: Anyone who makes the argument that they want to play their class the "way they want to," when it conflicts with what is, by consensus, the most effective, is just bad at the game, because people should want to be as effective as possible, and if they can't figure it out on their own, and they're not willing to research better ways, then they're not worth playing with. The problem is when the game is designed in such a way as to make a class/spec not competitively viable, and the bigger problem is when that difference is small (by Blizz's definition), such as 3-5%, and people STILL get blackballed because they won't theoretically perform as well as another class/spec. What makes me hopeful for this next Xpac is that GC is FINALLY gone. I won't go into why I feel that way, as there is a War and Peace amount of opinion on his contributions to past problems.

    In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any pvp in wow. A developer who left Blizz a couple years ago said that it was the feeling of many of the design team that adding arena was one of the worst decisions they made, and that their primary motivation was getting involved in that sweet, sweet competitive pvp tournament scene (the money from advertising specifically). Battlegrounds, in classic, were a fun diversion, and not taking to the degree of seriousness that makes the keyboard smashingly frustrating. PvP applies to such a small % of the overall playerbase, and yet it has such a massive impact on the way PvE is designed. It's very frustrating. The same is true for catering to the less than 1% of the playerbase devoted to the lifestyle of hardcore-competitive-world-first PvE raiding. Hopefully the dramatic simplifications that Blizz is advocating for WoD will help with that design problem.

    And lastly, keep this in mind - Shadow wasn't originally envisioned as a legitimate damage specialization. It made for great fun in PvP in classic. It made for great fun in PvP in BC (well, when combined with other classes) and was a delicious support-oriented mana battery in PvE. It was meh in PvP and semi-meh to decent fun in PvE in Wotlk. It was decent fun in PvE and PvP in Cata until it was nerfed. It's been unappealing throughout MoP across the board. The alternative play style approach of PEWPEWPEW instead of DOTDOTDOT is something that may give the game a breath of fresh air. And I FIRMLY believe the developers will do everything they can to balance it with a more dot-centric play style. Some fights it might do better or worse on, but there you go min/maxers, they're throwing you a bone! And as for the mana issue - has anyone considered that Dispersion is more than than just a life-saving tool? Sure there are some fights where you really wanna have it waiting in the wings for that soul-crushing boss ability, but some mage specs rely on evocating, and that's technically down-time for them too. Obviously Shadow will need some tweaking to make a new, no-dots-on-primary-target playstyle the peak of viability, but hey, it's not like the Xpac is launching tomorrow.

    If Blizz wants to diversify Shadow via a talent option, then let them, it could very well wind up making the class as compelling and complex as it was in previous expansions. Being pigeon-holed is a bad thing, not a good thing. Give it a chance to be great (and when it disappoint, THEN you can release your rage on the official forums).

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