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  1. #1
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    What fights do you use certain talents?

    What fights do you all use grimoire of supremacy or sacrifice on?

    Also, which fights would you say Archimondes vengeance is better than Kil'jaedans cunning?

    The reason i ask this is because we're starting to do more heroic progression and I would like to maximize my damage and use the talents that are best for each fight. So if you all have a certain talent for the last two tiers that you change each fights, let me know so i can give it a try! But for normal modes i dont ever change from Grim of sac and KJC. Thanks all!

  2. #2
    If you have KTT you can pretty much just stay GrimSac for everything on destro.

    I'm assuming you're talking Destro since GrimSac is useless for Aff.

    Since I play destro for 7 fights and aff for 7 fights because of the way mechanics are I generally run KJC on Destro and AV on Aff. The only fight where I switch from AV to KJC on Aff is for H IJ where you are moving alot. I also switch between SacPact and Soul Link depending on the fight as well. There are quite a few fights where Aff feels alot better though, obviously H Protectors and H IJ as well because you're going to be breaking CBolt casts alot when you need to move and many times your trinkets may proc and and you won't have time to plant for a CB. I started doing H IJ as destruction and found I was either taking way too much damage or not getting optimal CBolts. Switching to Aff and KJC made it way easier and I went down to taking the least amount of damage behind the hunter while still doing top dps. Depending on how you do phase 2 you'll also be getting more dps over Destro if you top your dots off before the first shockwave.

  3. #3
    Mannoroth's Fury on Immersius, Protectors, Sha of Pride, Galakras, Shaman, Spoils, Thok and Siegecrafter. Archimonde's Darkness on the rest, I never use KJC.

    I only ever use Grimoire of Service too, regardless of spec.

  4. #4
    Pretty much use gosac and kjc on every boss unless i play affli then gosup

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Mannoroth's Fury on Immersius, Protectors, Sha of Pride, Galakras, Shaman, Spoils, Thok and Siegecrafter. Archimonde's Darkness on the rest, I never use KJC.

    I only ever use Grimoire of Service too, regardless of spec.
    You should probably mention that you Play Demo mainspec aswell.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Decrepitate View Post
    You should probably mention that you Play Demo mainspec aswell.
    I do, but I don't think that would impact much on my choices, certainly not for Destruction.

  7. #7
    Standard talents
    Soul Leech
    shadowfury.
    Soul Link
    Burning rush
    GoSup
    KJC
    glyph of demon training, eternal resolve, siphon life

    pets imp and observer

    I got 8/14hc 25man on my lock and 11/14 hc 10man on my resto druid. 10 man is far harder than 25man for what I've experienced, if not only because of gear.
    On Immerseus using the imp for best burst with the demon training glyph
    Mannoroth's fury should be considered, on 10 man either using GoSac imp for dispel and the unbound will talent is helpful. Shivarra can be a dps increase with good utility.
    Protectors GoSac imp or felhunter depending if you are on interrupt duty.
    Norushen imp if you are going in late because of target swapping, or observer if going in fast.
    Sha of pride GoSac imp for dispel, or GoSup observer. unbound will can be considered, use twilight ward for soaking and swelling pride, dispel yourself if you are aware of soaking projections.
    galakras, GoSac felhunter if in both towers otherwise GoSup imp for target swapping, observer is also good because of interrupts on shamans.
    Iron Juggernaught, GoSup Imp, GoSac voidwalker works too if you need to soak mines (combine with unending resolve), Dark bargain (combine with twilight ward for low damage) good for soaking, glyphs that make your healthstones and ember taps heal for more over time is good too.
    Dark shamans, GoSup observer for best dps, mannoroth's fury can be considered but KJC will let you move which is important on the fight.
    Nazgrim, GoSup Imp or GoSac felhunter. Most important things on this fight is just maximizing the amount of shadowburns, combine with havoc whenever you see someone at 30% hp, havoc another target and dps it until you see the target go below 20% and be ready with 3 embers and just shadowburn both adds to death.
    Malkorok currently progressing, but placing your portal + gateway to cover a bigger area is preferred, GoSup observer or possibly GoSac, pet of choice, either void or shivarra (doubt shivarra would be useful though) if GoSup soul link is really going to heal you a lot. If GoSac dark bargain combined with twilight ward, would not recommend sacrificial pact for GoSac as you have no way to refill hp, Haven't really tested it because I use GoSup and soul link just feels too strong on that fight, but if it doesnt remove your hp, but soaks your shield, it would be worth considering.
    Spoils have not started here yet so can't be sure but from what I am planning GoSup imp for target swapping, might go for dark bargain for bombs, but probably won't.
    This is one of the fights where I can consider archimondes darkness, and saving the 2nd dark soul for BL at first big add in 2nd room, this allows you to have cd's up for every big add at least. If you find you are pulling lots of aoe packs mannoroth's fury should be used. Otherwise KJC allows you to move a lot, there isn't that much movement in the fight so it can be covered by conflagrate/shadowburns alone thus not being a dps loss. Have to test around with havoc glyph to see if its worth it, but I doubt it.
    Thok Glyph of unending resolve, the interrupt protection is very valuable, Mannoroth's fury can be considered for bats, GoSup Imp or GoSup observer depending on how fast your burn phases you have. If your pet seems to be dying get one of the others.

    Edit:
    You should really get affliction OS for bosses like protectors, (nazgrim) and thok. Simply because of the multidotting chances.
    Nazgrim on 10 man you have to consider wheter or not you need the 70% slow from curse of exhaustion, or you need the target focused dps.
    Last edited by theburned; 2013-12-13 at 04:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerraMagus View Post
    We know Deathwing's plan perfectly well.
    Bang Alexstrasza and Ysera
    Do lines of coke and have a bitchin' party for next ten thousand years

  8. #8
    Blademaster Swo's Avatar
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    From the title I thought this was going to be a really interesting thread.. Appreciate "theburners" post not just another Go:Sac/Go:Sup and AD/KJC debate. Was hoping for more what glyphs people used for certain fights or if certain talents could cheese things... theres 6 tiers of talents and 3 major glyph slots... so much of them are overlooked... I like the fact that when progressing on protectors i have to use around 6 tomes to change all my talents around... I go for Dark Regen, Dark bargain (use twilight ward for dot afterwards) I DO NOT glyph unending resolve, I DO glyph healthstones, Glyph Siphon Life cause... affliction..... I use imp with Go:Sup for AoE dispel and heal(I'm affliction) have symb from Druid for Rejuv and I can take the Mark of anguish for 25+ seconds which i just ridiculous between that and our hunter who has the cd reducing trinket with 2 deterrence face roll... I like that there are fights in SoO that well for me made me feel i couldn't just keep everything the same for every fight. Like having mortal coil on Iron Jugg HC we stack just as shock pulse happens but still drop to 60-50% hp but if you cast Mortal Coil as soon as the pulse comes or just before it, it has a travel time so you drop to 60% MC hits back to 75%+... same as having it for Malkorok HC saved me countless times if I had low shield and I had to soak throw an aul Mortal coil out save my ass and don't forget to glyph life tap GG... SO many examples of talent switching and glyphing... Done it a lot more this patch than I ever did in ToT

    but as for KJC/AD and Go:Sac/Go:Sup
    never ever.. ever ever...ever ever pick KJC its so unbelievably shit its scary... come on guys are you for real... having these Rppm trinkets its just so insanely better to have that banked dark soul for when they proc again... priest and mages can't move why would be... such a crap talent... if they switched it that you could cast cheebs instead of incinerate I think people would pick it.. and BBoY would be the default trinket...

    And simply put Go:Sac every fight ever as Destro
    Go:Sup every fight ever as Affliction

    /End of line
    Last edited by Swo; 2013-12-13 at 08:31 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I do, but I don't think that would impact much on my choices, certainly not for Destruction.
    You´ll never, EVER use mannoroths fury for destro. Even on Immserseus you´ll do better without it. It´s the biggest crap they implemented so far regarding destro.

  10. #10
    Only time I've seen MF work for destro is on sha when there is no DK. It actually does seem to work on F&B spells despite not listing it in the tooltip. (or did pre 5.4.2) Generally demo I "always" use AD and grim of svc..the rest is situational. Aff is superiority, destro is sac...the rest can vary.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    It actually does seem to work on F&B spells despite not listing it in the tooltip.
    100% sure it doesn´t work with 5.4.2, just tested it. can´t speak for pre 5.4.2

  12. #12
    never ever.. ever ever...ever ever pick KJC its so unbelievably shit its scary...
    KJC is amazing on any boss with lots of movement (Sha, Shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok, Thok, Siegecrafter, Paragons and Garrosh), what are you smoking?

    edit: talking Destruction and heroic modes here
    Last edited by Thorakh; 2013-12-13 at 10:12 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swo View Post
    Was hoping for more what glyphs people used for certain fights or if certain talents could cheese things...
    Only glyph that is mandatory for the class is Siphon Life. Every other glyph is situational.
    • Are there targets that require slowing? Use conflag or exhaustion.
    • Are there more than 1 boss targets within 8 yards of each other? Use Curse of the Elements.
    • Are you Demo Tanking? Use Demon hunting and drain life.
    • Do you need a cooldown reduction to teleport because of a boss mechanic (see bombs on Iron Juggernaut)? Use demonic circle.
    • Do you taking constant damage but will never be in danger of taking a fatal spike in damage? Use healthstone, ember tap, or eternal resolve.
    • Do you need a shorter cooldown on Unending Resolve to take advantage of the interrupt protection or need a major damage reduction every 2-3 mins? Use Unending Resolve.
    • Are you destro and won't have a target to havoc every 30 seconds but will have a target every minute or longer? Use havoc.
    • Are you demo (and probably other conditions for this to be true)? Use Imp Swarm.
    • Does the boss have a mechanic that prevents you from healing (malk)? Use life tap.
    • Is there a mechanic that could potentially kill someone if they were not at full HP when soulstone resurrected? Use soulstone.
    • Heavy movement fight as affliction? Use UA.
    • Are you demo and casting carrion swarm? Use Carrion Swarm.
    • Are you demo and afraid your target might die while HoG is in flight? Use Hand of Gul'dan.
    • Is there more than 1 lock in the raid banishing? One of you use Crimson Banish.
    • Ever have to heal your pet yourself? Use health funnel.
    • Fighting underwater? Use unending breath.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swo View Post
    never ever.. ever ever...ever ever pick KJC its so unbelievably shit its scary...
    I don't understand this. There is no snare anymore so why would it be scary? For most of the fights in late SoO, KJC is quite amazing for destruction and affliction, not as much so for demo, but still solid.

    As for talents,
    • 15: Soul Leech. Dark Regen if you absolutely need a healing cooldown for large spikes in damage. Harvest Life if you are demo tanking.
    • 30: Mortal coil. Shadowfury if you need to stun something.
    • 45: Sac Pact. Dark Bargain if you need to cooldown something that will hit harder than your max effective health. Soul Link if you have a pet and want to offset constant damage.
    • 60: Unbound Will. Burning rush if you need snare protection or need to run from something.
    • 75: Spec/Fight/Gear dependent.
    • 90: Spec/Fight dependent. MF not as good for destro. KJC good but not amazing for Demo.

    And little tricks for some of these heroic fights:
    • Immerseus - Unbound Will + Imp Dispel allows you to take more stacks if your raid is slacking. Dispel at 5 for each.
    • Sha of pride - Keep your teleport on the furthest prison actuator (you can place prepull) and just teleport after he finishes his prison cast.
    • Iron Juggernaut - Rather than soaking a mine, glyph teleport and make sure its not on cooldown and available. When a mine comes up, click it and as you are "hopping" onto it, cast teleport (action should be relatively quick between the two). If you do it right (which is very easy to do), you'll activate the mine and won't take damage. If you are slow, enjoy the break you get while your raid kills the boss.
    • Shamans - Sac Pact negates the iron prison debuff, so if you are sure you won't take fatal damage at any point in the fight, cast it whenever Iron Prison has less than 20s to expire. If you might take fatal damage before iron prison expires, cast it as close to the expiration time as you possibly can. The latter situation only happens in strats that tank both shamans together.
    • Malkorok - Use twilight ward before you soak to reduce damage to your shield. Glyph Life Tap if you are not destro so you aren't losing health while life tapping. Consider Mortal Coil and Glyph of healthstone/ember tap if your healers are slow getting shields capped.
    • Spoils - If destro, dump havoc'd shadowburns from the 2nd monk into the 1st boss.
    • Thok - Glyph unending resolve for interrupt protection. If destro, glyph havoc and use liberally on the boss. Imp dispels are pretty strong here.
    • Siegecrafter - If you have to conveyer belt, pray you get assigned with a spriest for levitate.
    • Garrosh - If mind-controlled, use unbound will immediately to remove 20% max health.

    If you plan to play destro, get a weakaura that prints the current cast time of your chaos bolt and put it near your boss mod. That way, you'll always know whether or not its safe to cast before any upcoming mechanics.
    Last edited by Fanatik; 2013-12-13 at 11:20 PM.

  14. #14
    Blademaster Swo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorakh View Post
    KJC is amazing on any boss with lots of movement (Sha, Shamans, Nazgrim, Malkorok, Thok, Siegecrafter, Paragons and Garrosh), what are you smoking?

    edit: talking Destruction and heroic modes here
    Tomato, tomato (say them different for this to make sense). I just can't see how you need to move that much during most of those fights... bar Siegecrafter... but as I main Affli I probably will just never understand it. Sha should be very little movement if your raid does it right and theres not 20 rifts up, Shamans (where I play Destro) you need to move once every 30seconds usually during toxic storm and geyser RoF, Conflag and Fel Flame... Nazgrim literally patchwork fight, Malkorok also patchwork its all relative its a luxury no other caster has but yet we have the option to have an extra offensive cool down per fight?!?... AD just wins hands down for me. KJC is the lazy mans option. (despite the fact the move more.... oxymoron? yes!)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swo View Post
    Tomato, tomato (say them different for this to make sense). I just can't see how you need to move that much during most of those fights... bar Siegecrafter... but as I main Affli I probably will just never understand it. Sha should be very little movement if your raid does it right and theres not 20 rifts up, Shamans (where I play Destro) you need to move once every 30seconds usually during toxic storm and geyser RoF, Conflag and Fel Flame... Nazgrim literally patchwork fight, Malkorok also patchwork its all relative its a luxury no other caster has but yet we have the option to have an extra offensive cool down per fight?!?... AD just wins hands down for me. KJC is the lazy mans option. (despite the fact the move more.... oxymoron? yes!)
    You named the 2 fights where you can get away with not having to use KJC for affliction and destruction. If you have any responsibilities outside of standing there and dps'ing like orb clearing on heroic malk, bomb handling on heroic IJ, towers on galakras, keeping gateways down on heroic thok, doing anything on heroic spoils(destro)/siegecrafter/garrosh, KJC is a worthwhile talent for destro/aff. Looking at your IJ video, the number of times you excessively move and are forced to cast fel flame is the exact reason why KJC is a solid talent and not just the lazy mans option. Excessive fel flaming just means more life tapping for affliction and forced ember consumption for destro, which means wasted resources/GCDs.
    Last edited by Fanatik; 2013-12-14 at 12:57 AM.

  16. #16
    High Overlord
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    So are there any fights that it would be more beneficial to use grim supr and/or AV over kjc as destro? Or should inkust stick to grim sac and kjc?

    Also for affliction I know grim of supr is the go to talent but does anyone use AV over kjc on particular fights?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swo View Post
    Tomato, tomato (say them different for this to make sense). I just can't see how you need to move that much during most of those fights... bar Siegecrafter... but as I main Affli I probably will just never understand it. Sha should be very little movement if your raid does it right and theres not 20 rifts up, Shamans (where I play Destro) you need to move once every 30seconds usually during toxic storm and geyser RoF, Conflag and Fel Flame... Nazgrim literally patchwork fight, Malkorok also patchwork its all relative its a luxury no other caster has but yet we have the option to have an extra offensive cool down per fight?!?... AD just wins hands down for me. KJC is the lazy mans option. (despite the fact the move more.... oxymoron? yes!)
    It's called patchwerk btw....
    Sha has a lot of movement, unless you are only soaking nearby rifts.
    On Shamans you will lose damage everytime you have to move and getting knocked into the air by a toxic storm loses you massive amounts of hp and dps, with KJC you can both move away from it and keep your dps, though only moving pr 30 sec means you don't need to use felflame so might be ok as you can keep conflagrates for that.
    Nazgrim is neither a patchwerk fight or a standstill fight, You have to kite adds, move out of shit and position yourself to be able to put out nice amounts of dps. Also simming 1% higher or so with AD on patchwerk fights where you can stand still and just nuke the boss... yet to see any of those in siege though. Malkorok you have to move everytime it spawns and orb, and during the soaking phase, and all the times you have to soak pools, sure on normal you should use AD as it reduces the boss uptime a lot thus an extra cd is a lot more, and can probably kill it in 2:30-> 4:30, thus having 3 or 4 dark souls will be worth it. On 6 minute fights which are most heroic progress bosses, the KJC will come out on top unless there is no movement involved.
    KJC is not lazy it's for the people who can actually see the value of being able to move freely, it's an insane advantage that is part of the kit that makes locks one of the least dying classes.
    Minimizing movement is stuff that can make the difference between decent and good players in terms of dps, though a lot of times it makes the difference on both damage taken and can quickly be the difference between full hp and 0 hp too, and dead men do no dps. First of all we can remove this factor by moving during incinerate casts which is uhhm......... 60% of our uptime on the bossm so we add another skill factor to the play that will be a dps loss on every fight in siege, (If you can tell me a fight where you can stand still 100% of the time I will remove this comment.) though in return you get a cd, that is quite decent and in most cases won't even make up for the dps you lost while moving. Or you can trade it for an aoe ability that is quite weak for destro, or a decent one for affli and demo (though never tried demo sounds like KJC is bad for them in most cases eitherway.)

    Though demo can

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nsgid View Post
    So are there any fights that it would be more beneficial to use grim supr and/or AV over kjc as destro? Or should inkust stick to grim sac and kjc?

    Also for affliction I know grim of supr is the go to talent but does anyone use AV over kjc on particular fights?
    Iron juggernaught GoSup imp is best as it still dpses during the knockback phase, using GoSac for voidwalker cd might be more important.
    Every full out aoe fight, galakras GoSup imp and observer is useful, though for tower group GoSac fel hunter is better.

    then its about preference GoSup perform equal for a bad player and a good player, though GoSac scales with your skill, and at simcraft levels it pulls just ahead, though I doubt most people can play at that level thus GoSup seems to be slightly superior on single target and aoe, pretty much galakras, darkshamans split tactic, norushen, immerseus, thok, Malkorok. otherwise on classic multi dotting fights GoSac pulls ahead, as your pet usually have issues swapping target, except for the imp. While GoSac deals less damage on aoe as it doesn't deal more damage, while the pet does some damage at least, and summoning pets and sacrificing them is a lot of job for slightly extra dps if the situation calls for it, and is minimal if even there.

    AD isn't worth it for heroic progression, gives you a higher risk of dying, and usually a dps loss, and when it isn't the dps increase is too low to bother, though if the fight demands a 2nd set of cd's you should consider it.
    Though it's an overall dps loss on Nazgrim, having 2 sets of cds both in the start and during BL at 10% can be useful.
    Last edited by theburned; 2013-12-14 at 11:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerraMagus View Post
    We know Deathwing's plan perfectly well.
    Bang Alexstrasza and Ysera
    Do lines of coke and have a bitchin' party for next ten thousand years

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swo View Post
    KJC is the lazy mans option.
    lol... Have fun spamming fel flame on heroics
    Last edited by HiYouCanCallMeBen; 2013-12-14 at 11:48 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Mannoroth's Fury on Immersius, Protectors, Sha of Pride, Galakras, Shaman, Spoils, Thok and Siegecrafter. Archimonde's Darkness on the rest, I never use KJC.

    I only ever use Grimoire of Service too, regardless of spec.
    I must admit you're one of the only people I've heard say that MF is worth using on ANY fight as destro.

    EDIT: I realise now you mainspec demo so I'm assuming you meant as demo for those fights which would make alot more sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I do, but I don't think that would impact much on my choices, certainly not for Destruction.
    Please explain your choice of go serv with destruction? I can only seeing it be viable for demo due to the synergy between goserv and your mastery.
    Last edited by ItcheeBeard; 2013-12-14 at 01:45 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nsgid View Post
    So are there any fights that it would be more beneficial to use grim supr and/or AV over kjc as destro? Or should inkust stick to grim sac and kjc?

    Also for affliction I know grim of supr is the go to talent but does anyone use AV over kjc on particular fights?
    I´m using GoSup on Immerseus HC, Thok HC and Siegecrafter HC.
    Reasons? Immerseus is AoE heavy without the real option to shadowburn cleave the small adds. The most part of the fight you are AoEing the adds, after that, Immerseus is already at 1 HP or close to. maybe I should mention that FnB isn´t scaling with GoSac.
    Thok HC: You can´t use the true strength of destro because of the interrupts. lining up chaosbolts with trinketsproccs is quite difficult during p1 and also you can´t have an 100% casting uptime (I usually cast one incinerate/immolate/conflagrate and afterwards a felflame while he is interrupting). Having an Imp outside helps your raid with dispelling and is also a DPS gain for you (pettraining glyph to make sure he isn´t sitting on energy because of the interrupts)
    siegecrafter HC: we are playing a quite mine heavy strategy, that means I´m a big part of the fight just FnBing the mines. Same reason as Immerseus HC.

    regarding AV: besides protectors and malkorok I never use AV. It´s just a too small DPS gain compared to KJC on movement fights, especially when you are learning a new bossfight. Every time you are spamming felflame or interrupting a incinerate cast because you need to move, your wasting the DPS gain of AV, and that´s not much for destro.

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