Comparing Raid Guilds

[Deja Thoris]

It wasn't tight for us, we could easily have done another whirl and been 100% safe.

One post you had to squeeze every bit of damage, the next it wasn't tight. Stop contradicting yourself.

[Gliff]

#1 problem with comparing guilds based on attempts:

Guild #1 raids 20 hours a week and kills boss after 100 attempts. Due to their raid hours they kill it in week 1 with an average iLvl of 500.

Guild#2 raids 9 hours a week and kills boss after 100 attempts. Due to their lower raid hours they kill it in week 3, with an average ilvl of 515.

Both guilds killed the boss in 100 attempts but guild #1 had no strategy guides and 15 ilvls less gear than guild #2.

So in reality, the only fair metric is the time based metric. Attempt based metrics would be super complicated due to the need for average i lvl measurements on top of attempts measurements.

Except guilds that raid less hours usually have a much lower ilvl then guilds that raid more hours.

We were US 25 Garrosh and US 117 ilvl at the time.

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This is going pretty offtopic but do you understand what a patchwerk fight is? Garrosh is the exact definition of what it is not. It has 2 transitions, a 4th phase in SW, multiple parts of the encounter there interrupts come into play, etc. It took us 157 pulls to kill Garrosh and we had a 574.5 ilvl average - November 21st - (http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ting.tier16_25). In no way was a 1-2 ilevel difference going to make or break our kill. It more came down to people scumbagging as little as possible and getting every little bit of damage we could onto the boss and even playing it safe at times (doing an extra whirl). Obviously the fight is easier with more gear but that fight isn't really a gear check.

Idk how you can say it isn't a gear check. It's a 100% DPS check once you figure out a strat and the transitions. Gear only makes the DPS check easier.

Getting only 1 whirl in P3 makes it sooo much easier.

[nightfalls]

Sure, it doesn't give you a rank specifically for your time committed per week but that is fine by me. I would much rather me US#14 and beat a handful of other guilds that raid 4 or even 5 nights a week to 14/14H compared to being just known as the #1 3day guild. Sure, being in the top of your "time committed" bracket is nice (and that doesn't just mean #1) but I personally get a lot more satisfaction knowing that there are guilds out there still to this day that are 13/14H and raid 5+ nights a week.

I'll agree with this statement, and I think it sums it up (dare I call it a /thread post?)

I'm sort of wondering what point everyone here is trying to make, besides players comparing epeen sizes... (and this is a genuine question, I fell a few pages behind on it, and now can't really see what opinions people are defending).

---

I think it's obvious that any attempt to "rank" besides a simple "Guild X killed it #1, Guild Y killed it #2, etc." is just a total folly.

[Aqua]

Not really. On my realm we have 2 guilds who burn out vs us in the first 2 weeks and then inevitably fall behind as their newer raiders get disgruntled and can't handle the pressure.

Tortoise ftw.

It's a slow realm though. On any other realm we'd get stomped but on a tier with...9+ Bosses and a reasonably high difficulty curve, we usually come out better for it. Play the long game son. Cater for your raiders. Results will vary but it's worked out good for us long term.

[Novx]

One post you had to squeeze every bit of damage, the next it wasn't tight. Stop contradicting yourself.

Only 1 of my posts even has ANYTHING about damage and that was where I wrote " It more came down to people scumbagging as little as possible and getting every little bit of damage we could onto the boss"

That wasn't me saying that it was a gear check, that was me saying that it was a scumbag check. Our issue wasn't gear, it was people aoeing adds and stuff like that when it wasn't needed for the sake of having higher DPS. I think you read someone elses post and think its mine...In no way were we ever stonewalled by gear during our progression and in no way was a few ilvl going to make a difference (higher or lower). You need to go back and reread my post rather than claiming I am contradicting myself.

Except guilds that raid less hours usually have a much lower ilvl then guilds that raid more hours.

We were US 25 Garrosh and US 117 ilvl at the time.

That's just bad luck on gear. Guilds that raid less hours are going to have a higher ilvl because they get to farm 13/14H more. We are US#14 and are a 3day/12 hr guild and therefore we took a few extra weeks to kill Garrosh and in turn get a few extra weeks worth of gear - I think we were US#50ish when we killed Garrosh. Blood Legion and Method killed it weeks ahead of us and therefore they only had a couple weeks worth of 13/14H gear compared to guilds in the top 10-20 that had a few extra weeks of gear behind them.

I'll agree with this statement, and I think it sums it up (dare I call it a /thread post?)

I'm sort of wondering what point everyone here is trying to make, besides players comparing epeen sizes... (and this is a genuine question, I fell a few pages behind on it, and now can't really see what opinions people are defending).

Yeah, the thread kinda fell off topic about 2 pages ago - now it is just a "Is Garrosh a gear check?" thread. /shrug

[nightfalls]

Yeah, the thread kinda fell off topic about 2 pages ago - now it is just a "Is Garrosh a gear check?" thread. /shrug

Regarding that... "guild item level" from WowProgress as far as I know is extremely unreliable, unless their metrics are better than I thought. For instance, I log out in lower-than-"true" item level on a regular basis.

[Novx]

Regarding that... "guild item level" from WowProgress as far as I know is extremely unreliable, unless their metrics are better than I thought. For instance, I log out in lower-than-"true" item level on a regular basis.

Im aware but there really isn't any true 100% accurate metric for it. Wowprogress does log the ilvl of the people that were in for kills though so you can see the raids ilevel after each week they kill Garrosh. (I guess if you log out in low ilvl gear right after you kill him it may get messed up? idk)

[Buxton McGraff]

Wow.. I usually just look at the beginning and the ends of these threads,
but now I took the last 15-20 minutes reading every page and there are some cool people with really in depth knowledge about the game.

[nightfalls]

Im aware but there really isn't any true 100% accurate metric for it. Wowprogress does log the ilvl of the people that were in for kills though so you can see the raids ilevel after each week they kill Garrosh. (I guess if you log out in low ilvl gear right after you kill him it may get messed up? idk)

Yeah, I'd imagine right after a kill would be more accurate (my comment wasn't 100% or even really 50% directed at you, at any rate). I guess the main source of inaccuracy for me would be people logging off in off-spec (tanks/healers especially?) or especially PvP (say, on PvP servers) gear.

[Deleted]

P4 was a joke, we killed it accidentally on our third ever attempt at it.

We spent a lot of time trying to do toes in under 50 energy before we gave up and we spent a lot of time working on doing p3 whirlings with little gear and 3 melee. We also had several unfortunately flaky trials so re-teaching 1-2 new people every night soaked up a lot of time.

I don't think 1-2 ilvls was as big of a deal as you say it is. It is certainly not 100+ pulls worth of gear.

Pretty much as I presumed. P4 as you said was a joke, we also accidently killed it on the third or fourth or something like that time in that phase. At the time we reached it there was barely no information about that phase aswell. What we knew was basically 1. We need some soaking rotation on Malice, 2. You need to kite the ball into the boss at 100 energy. So we had one wipe during bombardment due to not spreading out, but blizzard boss mod pretty much tells you that you should so that was easy fix.

Phase 3 was also extremely easy, we got 4 whirlings several times but it did not really matter much. The by far hardest parts of the fight for us was reaching the dps checks in P1 and P2. Even after we had reached P3 and P4 we could still wipe in P1 and P2 due to people getting bad RNG or messing up. We had quite a bit of wiping in Jade Serpent aswell, but that is probably because we had a different goal than most guilds doing Garrosh nowadays.

Once our item level went up to 568, we were feeling like we were overgearing the encounter a bit. It made the P1 dps check trivial, or maybe it was just all the wipes we had in P1. The P2 dps checks was still a bit tough though and required a lot of focus from everyone.
Find it quite funny that you think 572 is "low gear" for Garrosh.

But that is the difference when you overgear and dont overgear the encounter. The by far hardest parts of the fights for us was figuring out how to deal with the dps checks in P1 and P2, and why to me I also realise what an amazing feat Paragon did.

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This is going pretty offtopic but do you understand what a patchwerk fight is? Garrosh is the exact definition of what it is not.

Except when you were not overgearing the encounter, all those "tactics" meant nothing. It was basically a patchwerk fight with some movement in it. In the end, the boss boiled down to a dps race, nothing else. Our voice communication was 100% about dealing damage and stepping up the dps for the first 2 phases.

Also funny when a 25 man guild talk about Garrosh. Sorry to say, but your experiences are totally irrelevant for 10 mans. It would be like a 10 man guild commenting on 25 man Klaxxi. The fights are fundamentally different, and every aspect of 25 Garrosh is easier than 10 Garrosh.

In no way was a 1-2 ilevel difference going to make or break our kill. It more came down to people scumbagging as little as possible and getting every little bit of damage we could onto the boss and even playing it safe at times (doing an extra whirl). Obviously the fight is easier with more gear but that fight isn't really a gear check.

Nah, 574 is already overgearing it so much, dropping to 572 or 573 you would still overgear it. But if you are down in the 56x, 1 or 2 item levels really can make it or break it.

[Novx]

A patchwerk encounter is an encounter where you stand there and attack a target until it dies. The most patchwerk-type fight this tier is IJ or Malkorok hands down. Sure, you are 10man and therefore you are going to have less gear and less warforged items but to try and complain that 10man is infinitely harder than 25man is ridiculous (as always - and it goes both ways). You experience is totally irrelevant for 25mans so stop trying to start shit. This isn't about 10 or 25man encounters, this is about a specific encounter that you are claiming to be patchwerk when in reality it is the LEAST patchwerk type fight of the entire tier with the exception of maybe Spoils.

119 25man guilds 14/14H
111 10man guilds 14/14H

I would hardly consider 25man "Easy" compared to 10man if there are only 8 more guilds that have cleared it.

[Tojara]

I don't really get the patchwerk argument either. In the end almost every super highly tuned end raid boss is patchwerk like, because you're always trying to strip encounters down to the bare essentials. Ultimately the only thing after a couple hundred wipes that hinders guilds is going to be DPS checks, all of which require taking risks or bringing less healers.

I don't think anybody would think of Heroic Ragnaros as 'patchwerk' but there were lots of times during that encounter where only DPS mattered.

The intermissions on Garrosh are anything but patchwerk like, and at least the first one requires a fair amount of planning going in. There are plenty of things you react to, MCs are random and weapons post second intermission aren't always going to be in ideal places because of where they land during empowered whirling.

Patchwerk to me, at least his incarnation this tier is Malkrook for sure.

[xiic]

Pretty much as I presumed. P4 as you said was a joke, we also accidently killed it on the third or fourth or something like that time in that phase. At the time we reached it there was barely no information about that phase aswell. What we knew was basically 1. We need some soaking rotation on Malice, 2. You need to kite the ball into the boss at 100 energy. So we had one wipe during bombardment due to not spreading out, but blizzard boss mod pretty much tells you that you should so that was easy fix.

Phase 3 was also extremely easy, we got 4 whirlings several times but it did not really matter much. The by far hardest parts of the fight for us was reaching the dps checks in P1 and P2. Even after we had reached P3 and P4 we could still wipe in P1 and P2 due to people getting bad RNG or messing up. We had quite a bit of wiping in Jade Serpent aswell, but that is probably because we had a different goal than most guilds doing Garrosh nowadays.

Once our item level went up to 568, we were feeling like we were overgearing the encounter a bit. It made the P1 dps check trivial, or maybe it was just all the wipes we had in P1. The P2 dps checks was still a bit tough though and required a lot of focus from everyone.
Find it quite funny that you think 572 is "low gear" for Garrosh.

But that is the difference when you overgear and dont overgear the encounter. The by far hardest parts of the fights for us was figuring out how to deal with the dps checks in P1 and P2, and why to me I also realise what an amazing feat Paragon did.

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Except when you were not overgearing the encounter, all those "tactics" meant nothing. It was basically a patchwerk fight with some movement in it. In the end, the boss boiled down to a dps race, nothing else. Our voice communication was 100% about dealing damage and stepping up the dps for the first 2 phases.

Also funny when a 25 man guild talk about Garrosh. Sorry to say, but your experiences are totally irrelevant for 10 mans. It would be like a 10 man guild commenting on 25 man Klaxxi. The fights are fundamentally different, and every aspect of 25 Garrosh is easier than 10 Garrosh.




Nah, 574 is already overgearing it so much, dropping to 572 or 573 you would still overgear it. But if you are down in the 56x, 1 or 2 item levels really can make it or break it.

Our average ilvl was less than 572, our ret paladin likes to log out in ilvl spec with all his warforged offspec items. Our mage was 567, our enhancement shaman still has two normal mode weps, my monk is still using a TOT trinket and our rogue doesn't have combat weps so he played assassination.

You're jerking yourself off a little too much dude.

[Gliff]

119 25man guilds 14/14H
111 10man guilds 14/14H

I would hardly consider 25man "Easy" compared to 10man if there are only 8 more guilds that have cleared it.

Considering the % of 10 man guilds who have killed Paragons but have not killed Garrosh compared to the % of 25 man I would say Garrosh is considerably harder on 10 man (I cant look up the exact numbers because wow-progress is down).

Then again, Paragons is a joke on 10 man when comparing to the 25 man version and Siegecrafter is largely dependent on raid comp.

God I cannot wait till mythic so every thread doesnt have to turn into 10v25.

[Anzen]

Considering the % of 10 man guilds who have killed Paragons but have not killed Garrosh compared to the % of 25 man I would say Garrosh is considerably harder on 10 man (I cant look up the exact numbers because wow-progress is down).

Then again, Paragons is a joke on 10 man when comparing to the 25 man version and Siegecrafter is largely dependent on raid comp.

God I cannot wait till mythic so every thread doesnt have to turn into 10v25.

I raid X man, and I think X man raiding is significantly harder than Y man raiding.

[Gliff]

I raid X man, and I think X man raiding is significantly harder than Y man raiding.

Thats not what I said at all.

[Spotnick]

Considering the % of 10 man guilds who have killed Paragons but have not killed Garrosh compared to the % of 25 man I would say Garrosh is considerably harder on 10 man (I cant look up the exact numbers because wow-progress is down).

Then again, Paragons is a joke on 10 man when comparing to the 25 man version and Siegecrafter is largely dependent on raid comp.

God I cannot wait till mythic so every thread doesnt have to turn into 10v25.

Let's see, xmas holidays, we're doing a 10 man instead of 25, it took a full night for Thok, one full for Siegecrafter, 4 pulls for Paragons, and we're on night #2 on Garrosh.

Paragon being one of the hardest fight in 25 man, you can obviously say it's not balanced, and Garrosh is obviously harder because you can't cheese some mechanics and everybody has to be perfect.

So far 10 man need almost perfect raid comp to be done, granted we didn't adapt our strats much, which is an issue.

[xiic]

Let's see, xmas holidays, we're doing a 10 man instead of 25, it took a full night for Thok, one full for Siegecrafter, 4 pulls for Paragons, and we're on night #2 on Garrosh.

Paragon being one of the hardest fight in 25 man, you can obviously say it's not balanced, and Garrosh is obviously harder because you can't cheese some mechanics and everybody has to be perfect.

So far 10 man need almost perfect raid comp to be done, granted we didn't adapt our strats much, which is an issue.

Kill Garrosh 10H in less than 3 nights and you can say you're better than Blood Legion. Hell, I think even Duality gave up.

[Spotnick]

Kill Garrosh 10H in less than 3 nights and you can say you're better than Blood Legion. Hell, I think even Duality gave up.

Problem was having a consistent roster due to holidays, so a big learning curve, couple of phase 4 wipes sadly, no kill.

[Anzen]

Thats not what I said at all.

I didn't mean to quote you and put that as if it was directed at you. It was a vague joke aimed at some of the posters in the thread from the last line of your post.

My bad, probably shouldn't have quoted you when I put that :P