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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Mori123 View Post
    I'm sorry but did you say haste is better than crit in aoe situations? I was under the impression crit was a slight gain in aoe fights whereas haste is a slight gain in pure single target, please correct me if I'm wrong though.
    To simply put it, you are wrong. Look at Sparkuggz Destro 5.4 guide is my suggestion.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    I use KJC for every fight except Thok and I'm usually #1 on the meters in my 9/14h guild. I'm at 568 ilvl. KJC is still an incredibly good talent.

    We're going to need your logs to have any idea what's going on here. What server are you on and what is your guild/character names?
    KJC is hardly worth it on any fights since Fel flame is so good

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastig View Post
    KJC is hardly worth it on any fights since Fel flame is so good
    Tell me how fel flame is good, when it deals half the damage of an incinerate, and when you have to move you have to cancel your current spell, with KJC you just get to move away without losing dps, even simcraft doesn't consider archimonde's darkness to be much better, it's at a measily 0.4% damage increase on patchwerk fights.
    I don't really know how to consider it a decent talent, Also I play resto druid main, so my playstyle is heavily centered around being able to move quite freely and KJC allows me to do that, would consider it if it was a 15k dps increase.

    Btw how good is the 4p bonus for destro, I am currently in 563 ilvl gear, and I am doing best of our locks on all fights, unless they are dpsing something they shouldn't, sometimes behind the guy with both kadris and immerseus trinket hc wf and hc weapon. Though I still dont have the 4p and everyone else has it. And I still pull their dps or better single target, and decimate it at multitarget. Also note that the other warlocks is at 568, 566 and 567 (and extra one at 560 but hes not considered as he doesnt have cloak yet.
    Needless to say they are doing lots of misplays, not sure how they handle the single target dps, but they seem to be doing better single target than multitarget at least, because of shadowburn and havoc, last raid they even said they glyphed havoc and really there are some rare cases where that could be considered, but quite sure sha of pride is not one of them, also using them with double chaos bolts. And checking logs from nazgrim kill they used 19,18,8 and 13 shadowburns while I did 48. and 10 havocs vs 6,6,5,6.
    Sorry for maybe falling off topic a little but my point is I really can't use their gains from the 4p bonus as you can see.
    Also how much of an upgrade can I expect on the 4p bonus? atm around 300k simdps, also next in line to get the kadris totem hc (or hc wf if lucky, doubt it would drop 2 weeks in a row hc wf though.) how much is that of an upgrade from black blood flex?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerraMagus View Post
    We know Deathwing's plan perfectly well.
    Bang Alexstrasza and Ysera
    Do lines of coke and have a bitchin' party for next ten thousand years

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastig View Post
    KJC is hardly worth it on any fights since Fel flame is so good
    disregard this advice completely, this is complete BS. Please provide some numbers to backup your claim. I'm waiting. Or, just dont post on stuff you apparently have no clue about.

  5. #25
    last raid they even said they glyphed havoc and really there are some rare cases where that could be considered, but quite sure sha of pride is not one of them
    Actually sha of pride is one of the few fights that really benefits from the glyph of havoc because the add from the side spawns roughly every minute which you need to burn down. That's of course if you are progressing on that fight or still having trouble on it. I'm sure there are ways to increase your damage on the fight without the glyph and havoc/SB everything you can.

    And checking logs from nazgrim kill they used 19,18,8 and 13 shadowburns while I did 48. and 10 havocs vs 6,6,5,6. Sorry for maybe falling off topic a little but my point is I really can't use their gains from the 4p bonus as you can see.
    No, I can't see. I see nothing in what you just said that says 4p is bad. The other locks in your guild are the ones not utilizing their class right. If one of the other locks who has 4p played like you did, depending on procs of course, they would definitely be ahead of you without the 4p.

    also next in line to get the kadris totem hc (or hc wf if lucky, doubt it would drop 2 weeks in a row hc wf though.) how much is that of an upgrade from black blood flex?
    BBoY and totem are roughly the same when compared to the same ilvl, totem actually is slightly better. So I would suggest using whatever one has the higher ilvl.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Klavarnae View Post
    Actually sha of pride is one of the few fights that really benefits from the glyph of havoc because the add from the side spawns roughly every minute which you need to burn down. That's of course if you are progressing on that fight or still having trouble on it. I'm sure there are ways to increase your damage on the fight without the glyph and havoc/SB everything you can.



    No, I can't see. I see nothing in what you just said that says 4p is bad. The other locks in your guild are the ones not utilizing their class right. If one of the other locks who has 4p played like you did, depending on procs of course, they would definitely be ahead of you without the 4p.



    BBoY and totem are roughly the same when compared to the same ilvl, totem actually is slightly better. So I would suggest using whatever one has the higher ilvl.
    Sha of pride has a 1 minute rotation, first he casts self reflection after around 10 seconds, then corrupted fragments 5 seconds after they have spawned perhaps 20 sec into the rotation then he casts prison, the Big add quite late and the add after 45 sec at least, and resets after the swelling pride.
    This means you have to time it pretty well to not lose out on a havoc, also it means you can't use it on corrupted fragments which are more important to get out fast, as they adds an extra person when you get them out and its a higher risk, the extra pride from the add being up is not big enough. also it requires less timing and is more efficient, also this might be one of the cases where copying a chaos bolt might be favorable, but I think they copy chaos bolts on galakras and nazgrim too.

    I mean as you can see I can't compare my gain from getting 4p by checking their logs, just because they don't play anywhere close to how I play on multi target fights.

    Yes I know the totem is roughly equal, just wondering how much of a dps upgrade it would be to get a hc trinket over a flex trinket, and is slightly better for destro while the black blood is way better for affli.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerraMagus View Post
    We know Deathwing's plan perfectly well.
    Bang Alexstrasza and Ysera
    Do lines of coke and have a bitchin' party for next ten thousand years

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastig View Post
    KJC is hardly worth it on any fights since Fel flame is so good
    Someone hasn't played destro since the 5.4 PTR it seems

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    , also next in line to get the kadris totem hc (or hc wf if lucky, doubt it would drop 2 weeks in a row hc wf though.) how much is that of an upgrade from black blood flex?
    Massive BBoY only pulls ahead of KTT if BBoY is heroic I believe. And even then it's marginal

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mori123 View Post
    I'm sorry but did you say haste is better than crit in aoe situations? I was under the impression crit was a slight gain in aoe fights whereas haste is a slight gain in pure single target, please correct me if I'm wrong though.
    Haste beat out crit single target in 5.2 before the chaos bolt buffs when people were running gosup. Since 5.4 the reverse has been true due to 15% extra damage from chaos bolt and buffs to ember regen from incinerate and conflagrate etc

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    Sha of pride has a 1 minute rotation, first he casts self reflection after around 10 seconds, then corrupted fragments 5 seconds after they have spawned perhaps 20 sec into the rotation then he casts prison, the Big add quite late and the add after 45 sec at least, and resets after the swelling pride.
    This means you have to time it pretty well to not lose out on a havoc, also it means you can't use it on corrupted fragments which are more important to get out fast, as they adds an extra person when you get them out and its a higher risk, the extra pride from the add being up is not big enough. also it requires less timing and is more efficient, also this might be one of the cases where copying a chaos bolt might be favorable, but I think they copy chaos bolts on galakras and nazgrim too.

    I mean as you can see I can't compare my gain from getting 4p by checking their logs, just because they don't play anywhere close to how I play on multi target fights.

    Yes I know the totem is roughly equal, just wondering how much of a dps upgrade it would be to get a hc trinket over a flex trinket, and is slightly better for destro while the black blood is way better for affli.
    I copy chaos bolts on Galakras, but that's because the locks in my guild help kill the side add for the first half of the fight .

    I don't actually know the dps difference between 4p and 5 WF items, so I can't help you there. If it's like anything like previous tiers, 2p ~2.5% and 4p is ~5%, but don't think 4p is like that because you could potentially be bad at managing proc or good.

    As far as how much the trinket is better, I don't know anyone who knows this stuff off-heart. But the chart for simcraft at a 571 ilvl on Sparkuggz site says it should be a 8143 dps upgrade to the heroic version of totem from flex BBoY.
    Last edited by Klavarnae; 2013-12-14 at 11:47 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Klavarnae View Post
    I copy chaos bolts on Galakras, but that's because the locks in my guild help kill the side add for the first half of the fight .
    .
    If you are handling the grunts on galakras chaos bolt isnt a bad idea, but they seem to think its always the preferable choice.

    the question for 4p is not wf vs tier its hc shoulders vs normal shoulders, and normal hands vs hc hands. then I need an upgrade on chest eitherway, from flex -> hc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerraMagus View Post
    We know Deathwing's plan perfectly well.
    Bang Alexstrasza and Ysera
    Do lines of coke and have a bitchin' party for next ten thousand years

  10. #30
    The best thing would be to use simcraft to find out. Personally I would think that 4p is better than 26 ilvls, even if they are shoulder/gloves.

  11. #31
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    just glancing thru comments here and i want to point out two things
    1. what you stack after mastery boils down to personal preferences , haste and crit sims almost identical
    2. fel flame is borderline useless after blizz taxed its mana cost to stupid ammounts, if you've chosen mastery>crit way, KjC will make your life so much easier at least during fillers, casting CB will take a week tho xD

  12. #32
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    wait, so on aoe fights which is basically all of SoO, crit is best after mastery? or haste? Or is mast>haste purely single target fights which is like 2 bosses

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by nsgid View Post
    wait, so on aoe fights which is basically all of SoO, crit is best after mastery? or haste? Or is mast>haste purely single target fights which is like 2 bosses
    mastery> haste>crit is aoe while mastery > crit > haste is single target....
    Really though for SoO you go mastery> haste=crit and go more in the preferred one. I get good results with haste so I will stick with it, and other people have good results with crit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyeranth View Post
    Why dont we just have thrall and Malfurion whip it out and someone can measure and then we can be done with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TerraMagus View Post
    We know Deathwing's plan perfectly well.
    Bang Alexstrasza and Ysera
    Do lines of coke and have a bitchin' party for next ten thousand years

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    mastery> haste>crit is aoe while mastery > crit > haste is single target....
    Really though for SoO you go mastery> haste=crit and go more in the preferred one. I get good results with haste so I will stick with it, and other people have good results with crit.
    Pretty much this, I choose mastery>haste>crit for compatibility with respeccing though.

  15. #35
    just bcoz you're in ilvl 569 gear, doesnt mean that the gear is optimal for the spec. also kinda difficult to provide help when we cant see the gear that you actually have.

  16. #36
    Epic! Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klavarnae View Post
    First off. Stop spewing out things like 'feels' better and simply throwing it out as logic or something based on that. Haste vs crit has been talked about so much lately and numbers have been posted where they are less than 1% difference between the two. Haste pulls [slightly ahead on multi-target and crit pulls slightly ahead on single-target, period. Of course there is the issue of preference, whether you 'feel' like one is better or the other depends entirely on you. But please stop saying/pushing your way is better then others because it 'feels' better or stuff like that. Stick to the numbers.

    That being said, I do agree with you Belloc though that he should try crit for awhile because like I said, it does depend on the person and what they prefer. I have played both ways and am an advocate of both ways. Bigger CB's look nicer to the eyes on some people.

    You did say that people would dispute you....

    For the OP. Sparkuggz imo has the best information available to locks atm. Maybe try checking out his guides and cite.
    Did you just tell someone to stick to the numbers, and then one sentence later tell them to do what they prefer rather than stick to the numbers?

    Never, in any situation, should someone just "do what they prefer" which is the same thing as "doing what feels better" (which you just snapped at someone for saying) when they are looking to improve their DPS.

    If the numbers say crit is better, you increase crit, not whatever you prefer.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...t&n=Swampmoose

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoll
    Stop getting horny goo, judge on cd.

  17. #37
    Hm... Latest simcrafts show that you can (and sometimes should) reforge as much from hit into other stats as possible on such high ilvls, esp. with PBoI ('cause of great scaling of your stats with this trinket, probably), so if I were you, I'd probably consider switching int-mastery gems to expertise-mastery gems. Plus, if we may believe your armory, I'd consider stripping your reforges from leggings and belt - it will bring your hit-overcap to low levels (20-30, I suppose) and will win you back some of your crit; otherwise, those reforges are meaningless.

    About regemming - try simcrafting your character. If your secondary stats outweight half of intelligence score (i.e., 2 points in haste/crit score more than 1 point of int), consider switching gems; otherwise, just optimize a bit around your hit-score. And gz with 4T16 =)

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    Did you just tell someone to stick to the numbers, and then one sentence later tell them to do what they prefer rather than stick to the numbers?

    Never, in any situation, should someone just "do what they prefer" which is the same thing as "doing what feels better" (which you just snapped at someone for saying) when they are looking to improve their DPS.

    If the numbers say crit is better, you increase crit, not whatever you prefer.
    Obviously you're not reading into the situation. Normally, no, you wouldn't do what 'feels better'. This tier happens to be a weird anomaly. The 'numbers' are actually in and they say there's a less then .3% (yes, point.3) difference between crit and haste in 571 ilvl gear.

    So yes, in this situation (unlike what you said), you can do what you 'feel' is better for yourself. Know the 'situation' at hand next time please.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klavarnae View Post
    Obviously you're not reading into the situation. Normally, no, you wouldn't do what 'feels better'. This tier happens to be a weird anomaly. The 'numbers' are actually in and they say there's a less then .3% (yes, point.3) difference between crit and haste in 571 ilvl gear.

    So yes, in this situation (unlike what you said), you can do what you 'feel' is better for yourself. Know the 'situation' at hand next time please.
    Stop making nonsensical posts. If they are equivalent, why would you suggest that someone who is looking to increase their DPS try crit for a while and then say it (it being DPS) depends on the person and what they prefer, knowing that it will do nothing to solve the problem they have?

    Are you suggesting they reforge/regem for whichever stat offers the biggest placebo effect? Your posts might make more sense if that's true. Although I'm not sure how placebo effect will help OP increase his ACTUAL DPS which is what he is looking for. Strong suggestion for the "situation" which you seemed to have missed altogether.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...t&n=Swampmoose

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikoll
    Stop getting horny goo, judge on cd.

  20. #40
    Looking at your logs for protectors , its very low to where it should be. Im 9/14h 560 ilvl and i consistently pull 300-330k and i keep up / beast it out with my guildies who are 565-570 ilvl.

    And your even playing afflic where i just stay destro.

    Looking also at your immers kill, dude that fight should be your bread and butter. Its hard to say without my logs being available right now for me to compare but your toon is set up pretty much like mine but with heroic trinkets over my flex so maybe its just the case of you over reacting to mechanics?

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