Enhance sham-- improving dps

[flak]

Of course it's possible - but only if the fight is short, or your rng is good (i.e. higher than average crit and trinket uptimes).

Or excessive external cooldowns of course e.g. TotT, more than one stormlash / skull banner.

[Deleted]

This part here is where you're off-base. Exceeding Simcraft numbers is impossible except in AoE or gimmick situations (debuff on boss, buff on you through mechanic). Therefore I find it very likely you got "100%" of your result in such a gimmick fight. Let me clear that getting 100% of your Sim result is, even for a perfect player, 1-5/100 times and only on very few fights.

Also, you didn't read my previous post. The reason why hardcasting LB is a bad idea in T16 is the 4P bonus. The LL proc comes often enough to warrant hoping for it. I certainly get up to 90ish% of my Sim results on fights like Juggernaut.

Just for argument's sake i'll reintroduce the 4MW hardcast into my rotation and see how it goes, i'll also test SS pre-burst again and log it.

3 and 2 stack LB are pretty much always a waste, simply because pulling these off without clipping the next important ability requires split-second timing and awareness that is nearly impossible for human reaction time. These are mathematical optimums, not realistic optimums, and especially 3- and 2stack LBs are barely worth an extra 1-2%, if that.

You're wrong about ss'ing before ascendance being a dps loss.

However right about everything in your post above. It's very doubtful that Whugzz matches and or exceeds his simcraft dps on the majority of fights.
On that note, I never hard cast LB as it's screwed me over many times with 2-3 MW stacks except when I'm unable to auto attack ( Garrosh comes to mind straight away ).

Then again Whugzz, if you do exceed the simcraft results, well played. Sadly I don't see the same name in the top 5 ranks for each boss on WoL though.

[Refridge]

Flame Shock uptime... raise this and you'll see your dps increase significantly, you want as close to 100 percent as possible.

[Felocity]

This part I disagree with, if you're in T16 gear.
4MW LB is mandatory in T15 2p, not so with T16 4P. Being ready for that LL proc is a far greater DPS gain than weaving the occasional 4MW LB, which more often than not clips another ability by a split second. I stopped doing it as soon as I lost my T15 2p, and haven't looked back (for the record, i'm peaking at around 90% of my Sim results on Patchwerk style fights).

As for opener and aligning CDs, yep. This is, strangely, what most DPS do wrong not just Enh - they simply don't make burst macros or align cooldowns.
For me as an Orc:
prepull: Pot -> FE / PULL / -> Bloodlust/Stormlash macro -> Ascendance/Racial/Feral Spirit/Elemental Mastery/Trinket macro -> Stormblast and normal rotation
Attacking with a ranged attack during pull before in melee range and with cooldowns up is a dps loss due to wasting proc uptime.
Hitting Stormstrike before using Ascendance macro is a DPS loss due to wasting combined Cooldown and Proc uptime.

Erm. I would really like to see logs compairing your "success" skipping initial stormstikes/ignoring 3> lightning bolts vs doing these things O_o
Also a Bloodlust/Stormlash macro is awful. What happens when you dont lust on the pull do you just yolo hold stormlash >_>

[Deleted]

HC wf AoC 2/2 with glyphed fire elemental makes earth elemental overlap by 1second


I've been using this macro for years, it frees up a lot of bar clutter and makes my rotation that much easier to focus on the little things.

/castsequence reset=10 unleash elements, flame shock, earth shock

However I still keep a separate flame shock keybind for aoe situations.

Yes this means I'm never using a 2nd earth shock in a row but my flame shocks are always being cast with unleash flame up.
Earth shock being so low on priority I feel the ease this macro brings outweighs the miniscule dps loss from a 2nd earth shock.

However, you still have to keep a good eye on your unleash elements cd, the 'reset=10' is a backup but if you are too late casting the earth shock your UE will be running of cooldown while the macro is still on earth shock. Especially with a AS/UF build use with caution or keep a separate UE keybind ready.

But like the others said, it's mostly about the way your raid does a fight, how long the fight takes and what your assignment is.
Get the most out of your burst and never waste half a fire elemental on a downtime or heavy movement phase.

Oh and watch out where you pop fire elemental, it's fire nova seems to aggro random adds at Norushen, even the wall at Dark Shaman kills it.
And make sure you pop it as close to the boss as possible, it's so slow plus it's fire nova opener makes it fall behind easily if it's a moving pull.
I tried to disable fire nova but having to constantly enable/disable it when needed is such a hassle. And it being linked to earth elemental..

Edit: Before I forget, depending on your tactics. Use the right talents and glyphs for every fight. The days of '1 build for all' are long gone.

Just my 2 cents

[Felocity]

Oh and watch out where you pop fire elemental, it's fire nova seems to aggro random adds at Norushen, even the wall at Dark Shaman kills it.
And make sure you pop it as close to the boss as possible, it's so slow plus it's fire nova opener makes it fall behind easily if it's a moving pull.
I tried to disable fire nova but having to constantly enable/disable it when needed is such a hassle. And it being linked to earth elemental..

Dark shaman wall ruins my week every week

Also relevant to fire ele "micro managing", I've noticed fire elemental recasts Immo when the previous immo has fallen off the target.
I've been playing around with applying immolate my self with the same idea as flame shock falling off for a tick being a dps loss. Dunno if anyone has any opinions on that.^_^

[Deleted]

Felocity can I ask what you do to rank that high at Norushen? I'm at a loss there.
I do my own logging for the test phase and run em/pe for this boss. But I end up so low on dps
Even when I'm ignoring adds and I'm the first to go into the other phase.

Wish my raid could bruteforce juggernaut without the cheese tactik :/ Standing still doing nothing sucks lol.

My proraider thingy, http://www.proraiders.com/player/ind...r&player=Zarod

PS: Y u no stay down @ galakras!

[Deleted]

The default simcraft priority list isn't always the best one.
Since I run UE, I figured by intuition that casting LB with less than 4 MW stacks should be a dps loss: UE buffs auto hit triggered damage significantly and hardcasting LB does interrupt auto hitting.

Lo and behold, I commented out the >=3 and >=1 MW stack LB in the simcraft priority and got better theoretical DPS.

It is perfectly possible to reach simcraft DPS in a patchwerk style fight, but it is also possible to miss it by a lot even if you play perfectly. Why?
Enhancement is extremely dependent on it's cooldowns. Getting in another ascendance in or not makes a huge difference in a fight, so does trinket procs lining up with your cooldowns. e.g. with the 115 sec ICD trinket and AOC nhc usually the third proc does run out right before your asc is up again. With the RRPM tinkets and 4pT16 you just gotta have luck. Of course it always helps to be a herbalist/engineer to stack even more.

The most important thing on any DPS class (and much more so with enhancement and its many CDs) is cooldowns management. You should track all of them and all relevant procs and stack them as much as possible (without, of course, delaying them too much). You should also know the fights inside out so you can ration your cooldowns appropriately.

Don't try to rely completely on dps meters. Usually you know after a fight how well it went and how good you played. If the parse is low even though you know that you played near perfectly, it's often outside influence like unfavorable fight length, bad RNG, bad raid cooldowns like stormlash/banner, bad debuff uptime, bad hero timing etc.

[whugzz]

This part here is where you're off-base. Exceeding Simcraft numbers is impossible except in AoE or gimmick situations (debuff on boss, buff on you through mechanic). Therefore I find it very likely you got "100%" of your result in such a gimmick fight. Let me clear that getting 100% of your Sim result is, even for a perfect player, 1-5/100 times and only on very few fights.

Also, you didn't read my previous post. The reason why hardcasting LB is a bad idea in T16 is the 4P bonus. The LL proc comes often enough to warrant hoping for it. I certainly get up to 90ish% of my Sim results on fights like Juggernaut.

Just for argument's sake i'll reintroduce the 4MW hardcast into my rotation and see how it goes, i'll also test SS pre-burst again and log it.

3 and 2 stack LB are pretty much always a waste, simply because pulling these off without clipping the next important ability requires split-second timing and awareness that is nearly impossible for human reaction time. These are mathematical optimums, not realistic optimums, and especially 3- and 2stack LBs are barely worth an extra 1-2%, if that.

a

Off-base? What are you talking about? I was simply giving my opinion as you did as well. This isn't a bash thread. I did read your post, yes. Simcraft simulates higher for me with the LBs in the priority for both UF and PE specs so I just wanted to make sure other people knew that as well.

You're wrong about ss'ing before ascendance being a dps loss.

However right about everything in your post above. It's very doubtful that Whugzz matches and or exceeds his simcraft dps on the majority of fights.
On that note, I never hard cast LB as it's screwed me over many times with 2-3 MW stacks except when I'm unable to auto attack ( Garrosh comes to mind straight away ).

Then again Whugzz, if you do exceed the simcraft results, well played. Sadly I don't see the same name in the top 5 ranks for each boss on WoL though.

Hey, yea I never said I match or exceed simcraft numbers in majority of fights. I said I have hit 100%/exceeded simcraft numbers in the past. Also, why are we bringing ranks into this? I believe this is supposed to be to help the op up his enhance game by giving constructive input rather than bash people in the thread.

[resti]

I usually burst quite well, but my opener consists of Pot at 1 second -> EM->SS to get all trinkets procced with double dancing steel -> FE(specced PE) ->ascendance-> LB or SS depending on 5 stacks -> wolves
Is trying to stack all those procs with my FE + wolves worth it? I usually try and save my wolves until the very end of vicious from haromms or pot.
Trinkets are WF AoC + Heroic Haromms

[Hekili]

I usually burst quite well, but my opener consists of Pot at 1 second -> EM->SS to get all trinkets procced with double dancing steel -> FE(specced PE) ->ascendance-> LB or SS depending on 5 stacks -> wolves
Is trying to stack all those procs with my FE + wolves worth it? I usually try and save my wolves until the very end of vicious from haromms or pot.
Trinkets are WF AoC + Heroic Haromms

Stacking anything and everything with FE is worth it. Holding your FE until the procs go up is questionable. If the procs go off after your FE is up, your FE will benefit when the proc goes off. If your procs tick down a few seconds before you get your FE up and actively attacking, you've lost some of the benefit of synching up the procs.

[miffy23]

Erm. I would really like to see logs compairing your "success" skipping initial stormstikes/ignoring 3> lightning bolts vs doing these things O_o
Also a Bloodlust/Stormlash macro is awful. What happens when you dont lust on the pull do you just yolo hold stormlash >_>

Skipping Stormstrike may be debated, i'll log that when i get the time and see for myself.
3mw lbs are a dps loss atm unless you pull of absolute perfect, <1 second reaction times, more often than not you will clip the next priority or even worse, a 4p proc with it and that's less dps.

Since i am the Bloodlust popper in my team and the raidleader, the two are always aligned. I pop a Stormlash manually when we don't lust pull and the cooldown will reset in time, ofc. Fail to see what's wrong with that.

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a

Off-base? What are you talking about? I was simply giving my opinion as you did as well. This isn't a bash thread. I did read your post, yes. Simcraft simulates higher for me with the LBs in the priority for both UF and PE specs so I just wanted to make sure other people knew that as well.



Hey, yea I never said I match or exceed simcraft numbers in majority of fights. I said I have hit 100%/exceeded simcraft numbers in the past. Also, why are we bringing ranks into this? I believe this is supposed to be to help the op up his enhance game by giving constructive input rather than bash people in the thread.

Telling you facts isn't "bashing". It's nearly impossible to achieve "100%" of your Sim result in a realistic encounter, as i stated in my post. Even the absolute top players don't achieve this, it's simply humanly not doable. We're simply telling you that you're exaggerating.

Most good players will achieve around 85-95% of their Sim on a good performance on Patchwerk style fights, without any buffs or debuffs on boss not used by Simcraft.

Yes, LB will SIM higher, however pulling it OFF perfectly requires reaction times in high ilvl gear that are near impossible to pull off. I'm talking about 2/3 mw LBs with 4p T16. 2/3 MW bolts especially have a very tiny, less than 0.5second window where if you start casting them too late or too early, you're already messing up by clipping another priority, or if ur unlucky u had a LL proc pop up in that time and ur delaying it. It's not advisable to go for this with the 4piece, at the very least, and i would never advise going for 2mw LBs, these are almost always a dps loss. 3 and 4MW may be considered in sub-T16 gear with higher haste.

What we adressed was not to "bash" you Whugzz, it's to clarify some things. 100% of Sim result are simply nearly impossible to achieve in real raid situations, unless you are getting a buff in the fight, aoe is involved, or the boss takes increased damage through a fight mechanic. These are factors not considered in a Simcraft run.

Example: single target result is 320 average, Garrosh average ends up at 450 due to massive AOE cheesing in P1 and in transition and minion phases. That doesn't mean the player "exceeded or attained 100% of Sim".

Take a fight like Juggernaut and see if you reach 95% of your Sim, and that's a very very good execution, with the little bit of movement involved.

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I usually burst quite well, but my opener consists of Pot at 1 second -> EM->SS to get all trinkets procced with double dancing steel -> FE(specced PE) ->ascendance-> LB or SS depending on 5 stacks -> wolves
Is trying to stack all those procs with my FE + wolves worth it? I usually try and save my wolves until the very end of vicious from haromms or pot.
Trinkets are WF AoC + Heroic Haromms

Never delay any cooldowns as Enh, unless it's a question of just a few seconds to line up for example EM+ FE + Ascendance or any version of that. But never longer than a few secs.

[Hekili]

I disagree with several of your assertions, miffy23.

First, when I sim my character, skipping LB with 3 or fewer MW stacks is a DPS loss. Not a dramatic one, and perhaps its worth losing 0.5% DPS for a more convenient rotation, but it's a DPS loss. This is consistent with my personal experience.

Second, you asserted that casting LB as a higher priority ability comes off cooldown is a loss compared to SimulationCraft. That's not true. The SimulationCraft profile will cast the highest priority ability that is off CD. There is syntax to force the addon to wait for higher priority abilities that is not used by the SimC profile in our single-target rotation (Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Unleash Elements, Shocks). The syntax IS used in our AOE rotation:

actions.aoe+=/wait,sec=cooldown.fire_nova.remains,if=active_flame_shock>=4&cooldown.fire_nova.remains<0. 67

This means that, when SimulationCraft runs, it will prioritize whatever is off cooldown over anything that is on cooldown, even if the cooldown is very tiny. I admit, it may be a real world DPS gain to hold a low MW LB for a fraction of a second in order to catch Lava Lash coming off CD in 0.05 seconds, but the SimulationCraft profile does not do that. Saying that weaving LB the way SimC does isn't realistic is completely false. If anything, SimC is likely to do it worse than a player in cases like your example.

Never delay any cooldowns as Enh, unless it's a question of just a few seconds to line up for example EM+ FE + Ascendance or any version of that. But never longer than a few secs.

Mmm, also debatable. The real rule for delaying cooldowns is "don't hold a cooldown for so long that you don't get to use it again later." Take EM for instance. If you're going into a 6 minute boss fight, you could use it at 0 seconds, 90 seconds, 180 seconds, and 270 seconds. 360 seconds is the end of the fight, so that usage doesn't really count for anything. EM lasts 20 seconds, so your last ideal use ends at 290 seconds. Between 290 and 360 seconds is pure downtime.

That means in 4 uses over the course of a fight, you have a total of 70 seconds of leeway before you cause yourself to lose uptime. You can split that up however you like... Delay each EM by 17.5 seconds! Delay every other by 35 seconds! If it improves synergy between major CDs, do it. But if you hold EM for more than 70 seconds total, the lost uptime has started to cost you.

Anyway, with regard to achieving X% of your SimulationCraft DPS, unless you're implementing a "Fight Style" that matches the actual boss you'll fight in game, your SimC number isn't the real target for many fights. You recommended Iron Juggernaut as a Patchwerk fight, but a lot of people don't do that fight in a Patchwerk sort of way. Malkorok (even H Malkorok, since the adds probably die before you contribute much damage to them) is pretty much Patchwerk if your raid allows it. My raid has me on boss full-time for Siegecrafter, so that's effectively a Patchwerk fight for me, too.

That said, you're correct that pulling 85 - 95% of your SimC number is rather good. We sim fairly high, and if you're in that range, you're probably not consciously making choices that hinder your DPS. And you're correct that fight mechanics drive us further from SimC DPS than a lot of people expect. (That can go either way, though, as you noted. Adds are basically a free DPS increase compared to SimC Patchwerk.)

[mmokri]

Simcraft rotation is not perfect.

[Hekili]

My point wasn't that SimulationCraft is perfect. My point was that comparisons need to be consistent. If you're using SimC numbers as a metric, then the implication is that you're trying to do what SimC does. If you are doing something different than SimC would do (or fighting under different circumstances than the simulation), then comparing your performance doesn't really make sense. Or, at least, you'd need to justify it with data.

Should you avoid casting LB with MW<5? It's quantifiable and the answer is no. Casting LB with fewer than 5 MW stacks is a DPS gain, if you're following the SimC priority. Doing otherwise is a deviation that will cost you MW stacks over the course of a fight (MW stacks you gain while MW is already at 5). And it costs you the LB damage. Is it a dramatic DPS loss? Probably not.

You can tweak the simulation and prove that it's a loss nonetheless. I've simulated my character with all LB (MW<5) blocked out, and it's a loss. I've tweaked the sim to avoid hardcasting LB when Stormstrike or Lava Lash will come off CD w/in half a second. It's a DPS loss. Don't do it unless it's to address a boss mechanic (i.e., Thok).

Then you have the decision to not use Stormstrike before Ascendance. You've wasted the CD reset on your 4th highest DPET ability. Over the course of a typical boss fight, you'll lose 3 - 4 Stormstrikes. Is that a dramatic DPS loss? Maybe, maybe not. But you're choosing to give up some DPS (up to 10% of your Stormstrike damage) for no other perceivable benefit.

You start adding together these minor things that are demonstrable DPS losses, and it becomes significant. Why would you want to do things that you know reduce your overall DPS? If it doesn't help address a mechanic of the fight (i.e., movement, swapping to adds, etc.) and doesn't help your raid (i.e., utility/raid healing), why would you assertively choose to do something that you can test and see is not optimal?

[miffy23]

Hekili:
@ mw<4 LBs are a theoretical DPS gain, not always a realistic one. If you are able to pull off MW3 and MW2 LBs without wasting an LL 4p proc or delaying SS or base LL/UE, then yeah, it's a DPS gain. Problem is, this almost impossible to pull off.

@no SS pre Ascendance: the reason why I don't do this at pull only is to have the maximum effectiveness from the time of my combat initation, not the boss becoming active, and making the most of x/minute procs. An SS pre cooldown macros basically wastes nearly 2 GCDs of fully buffed Ascendance/EM/Wolves/FE/Racial/Trinket + Item procs uptime. I've so far always come out with superior burst numbers by poppin everything with the first cooldown macro and opening with a Stormblast.

@ minor things - i used to mw4 + mw 3 lb in T15 with far greater haste. I've dropped both since I've gone far higher Mastery (562 ilvl atm) and my DPS has consistently gone up, especially since gaining the T16 4P. People diss this tier bonus unfairly, it's actually a rather strong one and with some luck it fills those irking waiting phases between rotation iterations instead of a FN.
All in all, I do manage to pull off 90ish % of my DPS normally, i'll experiment with reintroducing 4mw LBs and pre-burst SS again and see if I see any difference.
My point was mostly about the theoretical optimum not always being the realistic optimum.

[Hekili]

miffy23, your thoughtful response is genuinely appreciated.

Re: MW<4 LBs, I would have an incredibly hard time "wasting" an LL 4p proc, given that it almost never actually procs anyway. It's just a CD reset, and, in simulations, is roughly equivalent to a CD reduction of less than a second. Remember that the simulation already accounts for any delays to SS/UE/LL from hardcasting LB, and still calculates it as a DPS increase.

Re: SS pre-Ascendance: You're correct that getting the full benefit of all your procs is critical to overall DPS, since we frontload most of our damage especially if we are Heroism/Bloodlusting on the pull. I disagree that SS pre-Asc wastes any proc time. You should be in melee by the time you cause your trinkets and enchants to trigger. The only thing you're really losing uptime on is your wolves and perhaps 1.5 seconds of your pre-potion, and your pre-potion should still last longer than your Ascendance anyway.

For the other stuff, I run with about 32.5% haste and that lets me bring 73.44% mastery in my current ilvl 574 gear. I don't think the T16 bonus is underrated. It doesn't accomplish much on single target, and its too unreliable to convince anyone to refrain from holding LL to spread FS during add phases. When you don't need it, it's there, and when you need it, you can't rely on it. That is pretty much the definition of a bad set bonus, IMO.

My point was mostly about the theoretical optimum not always being the realistic optimum.

This is one of those things that is technically true, but doesn't actually help anyone to improve their performance. I haven't encountered anyone who I could be convinced is butting up against the gulf between realistic optimum and theoretical optimum. I think it's not accurate for people to attain 80% or 90% of SimC values on a Patchwerk fight and decide that they're doing everything they can to optimize their DPS. Most of the time, people are comparing a non-Patchwerk fight to a Patchwerk simulation, anyway. Or their simulation doesn't match their raid comp (so they have more shattering blows, skull banners, etc.). In those cases, it's just as likely that they should be exceeding SimulationCraft as it is that their DPS is hindered by fight mechanics.

[miffy23]

I'm going to experiment a bit with changing up my priorities slightly and do some logging, see if i see any significant changes.

On a somewhat unrelated matter: 32.5 haste and 73.44 mastery in 574? I have 37.x and 81.x in 562 oO You got pretty unlucky on drops so far it seems.

[Hekili]

Haha, those are my from gear numbers, I guess. Battle.net says 45.68% haste and 73.44% mastery.

I know that I run with more haste than most people, I suppose. My reforge plot for haste vs. mastery bears it out, though.

[whugzz]

Skipping Stormstrike may be debated, i'll log that when i get the time and see for myself.
3mw lbs are a dps loss atm unless you pull of absolute perfect, <1 second reaction times, more often than not you will clip the next priority or even worse, a 4p proc with it and that's less dps.

Since i am the Bloodlust popper in my team and the raidleader, the two are always aligned. I pop a Stormlash manually when we don't lust pull and the cooldown will reset in time, ofc. Fail to see what's wrong with that.

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Telling you facts isn't "bashing". It's nearly impossible to achieve "100%" of your Sim result in a realistic encounter, as i stated in my post. Even the absolute top players don't achieve this, it's simply humanly not doable. We're simply telling you that you're exaggerating.

Most good players will achieve around 85-95% of their Sim on a good performance on Patchwerk style fights, without any buffs or debuffs on boss not used by Simcraft.

Yes, LB will SIM higher, however pulling it OFF perfectly requires reaction times in high ilvl gear that are near impossible to pull off. I'm talking about 2/3 mw LBs with 4p T16. 2/3 MW bolts especially have a very tiny, less than 0.5second window where if you start casting them too late or too early, you're already messing up by clipping another priority, or if ur unlucky u had a LL proc pop up in that time and ur delaying it. It's not advisable to go for this with the 4piece, at the very least, and i would never advise going for 2mw LBs, these are almost always a dps loss. 3 and 4MW may be considered in sub-T16 gear with higher haste.

What we adressed was not to "bash" you Whugzz, it's to clarify some things. 100% of Sim result are simply nearly impossible to achieve in real raid situations, unless you are getting a buff in the fight, aoe is involved, or the boss takes increased damage through a fight mechanic. These are factors not considered in a Simcraft run.

Example: single target result is 320 average, Garrosh average ends up at 450 due to massive AOE cheesing in P1 and in transition and minion phases. That doesn't mean the player "exceeded or attained 100% of Sim".

Take a fight like Juggernaut and see if you reach 95% of your Sim, and that's a very very good execution, with the little bit of movement involved.

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Never delay any cooldowns as Enh, unless it's a question of just a few seconds to line up for example EM+ FE + Ascendance or any version of that. But never longer than a few secs.

Ok, it's not impossible. I have a iron jug log for you just like you asked:
worldoflogs.com/reports/iw5l4xysz5w1de1t/sum/damageDone/?s=8074&e=8372

killed it 11/5 when I had approx 74ilvls lower than I do now (verifiable in activity log of new gear obtained).

Simcraft is simming on a 4m 57s Patchwerk style fight to be 413k in my current gear.

If we equate 25ilvls to at very minimum 5k dps (we know its more) then 413k - 15k = 398k dps theoretical on a patchwerk fight and we know there is also movement on iron jug as well.

I hit 402k DPS(e) in the log (which includes activity).

done.