Low Level BGs...

[Redlikemyrage]

Now, before I even start, I know that low level BGs are imbalanced, and most people shouldn't take them seriously. But I think there is an underlying problem created by this.

You unlock the potential to queue for BGs at level 10. Now, imagine you are a rogue/hunter/prot warrior with BoAs. You are going to have a blast, smashing people left and right, one-shotting non-BoA geared people, and in general having your way with the opposing team.

Cool, whatever. But let's look at it from the perspective of a new WoW player.

You may or may not know what pvp is, but once you hit level 10, you become curious as to what these "battlegrounds" are. You queue up for one, equipped with your white questing gear and a massive 550 hp pool. Even if you are one of the classes mentioned above, you have no BoAs. You are fodder for the swarm (the will of the Klaxxi is eternal!). You can't assist your team (you don't even make a good distraction, getting one-shot doesn't distract anyone), you can't do objectives. And if your opponents are aggressive enough, you will spend your next 15-20 minutes in the GY getting farmed.

I guess the question I'm really asking you guys, do you think the atrocity that is low level pvp may instantly detract new players from trying it? Basically reacting like "okay, so that's pvp, I'll never touch that again!"

As a follow-up, if you agree that this may, and has, detracted new players from pvp, should Blizzard think about paying a little more attention to it?

For what it is worth, I'm of the opinion that they should either take a serious look at it, or disable it til higher level (not max, just high enough to where one-shotting no longer happens). I feel like if I were a new player and BGs at level 10ish was my first look at pvp, I'd never touch it again.

[Vexilius]

Seriously doubt it. When that happened to me at the start of vanilla, I was like...how do I become that powerful? Then I started making twinks and boom, I loved PVPing. Finding other twinks, fighting opposing twinks. I twink pvp'd for 6 months before I even got my first level 60.

The sky doesn't fall every time you fail at something on your first try. Stop exaggerating and complaining.

[Deleted]

It's pretty much the same regardless of level or gear. Obviously no oneshotting at higher levels, but experienced player will have more gear and will outplay unexperienced player in a fashion that he has no chance to win.

[Redlikemyrage]

Seriously doubt it. When that happened to me at the start of vanilla, I was like...how do I become that powerful? Then I started making twinks and boom, I loved PVPing. Finding other twinks, fighting opposing twinks. I twink pvp'd for 6 months before I even got my first level 60.

The sky doesn't fall every time you fail at something on your first try. Stop exaggerating and complaining.

I love how quickly you assumed that I'm both new at pvp, and that I failed at it. You are also further assuming all people are psychologically similar to you.

My actual reasoning for making this thread was because I'd spent some time recently trashing people in low level BGs on a rogue, and was thinking how demoralizing it would be if I were on the receiving end. Not because I got beat and decided to never pvp again. Also, please show me where I exaggerated or complained.

Don't bother, I'm not waiting around, your lack of reading comprehension leads me to believe you won't even be able to tell that I wasn't exaggerating or complaining.

It's pretty much the same regardless of level or gear. Obviously no oneshotting at higher levels, but experienced player will have more gear and will outplay unexperienced player in a fashion that he has no chance to win.

Yeah, this is true, for sure. But I'm more talking about the one-shotting people. The reason I even focus on this is because at level 10, when you can first begin BGing, this can and will happen to you if you don't have BoA gear. Getting outplayed can, at times, motivate one to become better. Getting one-shot, while it may motivate the select few, would generally deter players from attempting to BG again.

If two pro football teams face off against each other, and one team outplays the other soundly, the losing team is most likely motivated to improve. If a pee-wee football team is made to face off against a pro team, I promise you none of those kids will play football after that day.

[ChristopherD87]

IMHO I think of 2 things blizz should do, but wont...

1) make BOA's non wearable in BG's

2) make like a BOA only BG listing, that would be kidna difficult do to the difference between having 1 boa or 7 boa's...but something to where completely plain geared people would go against the same...and BOA vs BOA

But, I am not against BOA's I have almost all of them, and low level ganking is fun, but I see where you're coming from with new players, I kinda felt like that when I started playing in BC, But I don't think anything will get done about this, since once you hit 50ish or so, looms aren't as big of a gap with gear (sure they are still better) but you can play against them in quest greens and dungeon blues and not get ganked and win a few...sorry for the rant lol

[Johnkie]

hate boa gear so much, ruined so much fun in gathering gear while leveling... Char buildup.

[Aydinx2]

I love how quickly you assumed that I'm both new at pvp, and that I failed at it. You are also further assuming all people are psychologically similar to you.

He wasn't specifically targeting you with that sentence, but all players in general.
"I love how quickly you assume" -Irony.

[Nuditea]

I've gotten to the point where I level classes and test out what are good in the 10-14 bracket. Ones that aren't listed I've either yet to test out, or simply aren't worthy of being "good".

Druid - Definitely has the strongest most mobile healer. Rejuvenation is able to instantly top someone off, in addition to having small extra ticks and a tiny mana cost which can be spammed, its only counter is a Purging Shaman. Cat Form gives you a 30% movement speed, the fastest at this stage in the game, and that comes with the ability to shift out of any slow and snare. Quite formidable. I really can't say much about Feral, but Balance is strongly avoided due to long casts and horrible damage over time and Guardian isn't even worth giving a second though.

Hunter - Marksman is complete useless as it doesn't utilize Aimed Shot properly, due to it having to be cast. I personally prefer Survival as Explosive Shot just feels like it does more damage. Beast Mastery seems to be the popular choice, though, it does come with range requirements on Kill Command.

Mage - Fire is completely useless due to long casts, it is strongly recommended to avoid this. Arcane does some insane damage with Arcane Barrage and Arcane Blast also. Frost still with that extra snare, and quick Frostbolt casts can dish out a nice amount of damage too. I guess it goes to show whether you want the extra damage, or the snare between Arcane and Frost.

Monk - Mistweaver; a very mobile healer with a strong single-target heal. Albeit having to channel it, Soothing Mists is quite strong. You also have the ability to deal damage with Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick, this also comes to play that you'll die as fast as a Rogue. You're best standing at the back of the pack and rolling to avoid getting flanked. Brewmaster can be a pretty effective specialization, slowing down almost everyone with Dizzying Haze. Windwalker I've found to be a quite annoying to play. They don't exactly offer much at this level, besides Fists of Fury which is channeled and requires close proximity, with a small hit box.

Paladin - Holy comes a close second for being a strong offensive healer, being able to use Judgement, Crusader Strike and Holy Shock, landing some nice kills. With great support abilities, you're also able to top off at least 3 players almost instantly. Protection is quite a strong foe, destroying casters (especially healers) with Avenger's Shield and with its own survival kit of Word of Glory. Flash Heal costs a hefty amount of mana though, so use it carefully. Almost the same applies for Retribution, but those three Holy Power Templar's Verdicts will kill anyone almost instantly.

Priest - Discipline scales amazingly well, giving cheap heals and strong shields for sniping. Definitely the most offensive healer, with the ability to Shadow Word: Pain, start casting a Smite, and at the end, finish with a Penance for an insane kill speed. Holy does somewhat the same, minus the strong shields. It has an extra form of crowd control, though. Shadow does quite well in terms of damage, spreading Shadow Word: Pain and disabling players with Mind Flay. Cheap Flash Heals also make it a strong hybrid for off-healing.

Rogue - Go Subtlety, no questions asked. You'll be able to instantly kill someone in an Ambush. You don't survive long enough outside of stealth to do anything else effective so playing the other specializations is a wasted effort. Although I've played Assassination to a nice level, Mutilate does almost the equivalent of an Ambush but out of stealth. Its cost is too hefty to warrant being in the open, though.

Shaman - Elemental is not even worth playing at this level, too long a casts make it a horrible caster. Enhancement does some amazing instant damage, tearing through enemies as soon as they reach them. Restoration has the ability to keep someone alive simply with Earth Shield and Riptide, also very strong counter for Restoration Druids and Discipline Priests because of Purge.

Warlock - Destruction can be deadly, ending its casts with an instant ability makes for astounding burst. Affliction doesn't deal enough damage and Demonology has too long a cast time for its abilities.

Warrior - Arms can be quite strong, gimping you as soon as they charge into you with a Heroic Strike/Victory Rush macro. Fury isn't even worth trying at this level, but Protection is quite strong once you get Shield Slam.



Mostly though, the meta-game lies in what healers you have. The strongest healers are Druids and Priests, but assuming you have a Shaman who knows how to Purge, they're easily counterable. After that (disregarding Purge) it's then Paladin and Shaman and after that in Tier 3, Monks.

[Redlikemyrage]

He wasn't specifically targeting you with that sentence, but all players in general.
"I love how quickly you assume" -Irony.

He then when on to say "stop complaining and exaggerating," which was directed at me. This lead me to believe the first part of the statement was also directed at me. Sorry.

Oh, by the way, did you have anything to contribute or were you just coming to be an internet white knight?

- - - Updated - - -

-snip-

This seems true from my experiences as well. I've also seen Ele's cause some problems because of their strong off healing when no one has any kicks (save belf silence).

[Kognit0]

Is there still a active twink community?

I remember I had a lot of fun twinking some lvl 19s back in TBC. Getting head, shoulder and leg enchants were pretty tricky before you even had a char at max level.

[Nuditea]

Is there still a active twink community?

I remember I had a lot of fun twinking some lvl 19s back in TBC. Getting head, shoulder and leg enchants were pretty tricky before you even had a char at max level.

There are on a few servers, though the community is not as active as it used to be. They all twink level 60/70/80/85 now, that I know of. I'm not sure if anyone still does the 10-14 or 15-19 etc., brackets anymore.

[Senathor]

hate boa gear so much, ruined so much fun in gathering gear while leveling... Char buildup.

Yep I agree, they should serve more like buffs that increase the amount of xp you gain, rather than being gear.

[Kognit0]

Yep I agree, they should serve more like buffs that increase the amount of xp you gain, rather than being gear.

Definitely. Maybe a 5% or 10% increase in xp for every character above 80 or something. And then you can toggle the buff on or off by talking to a guy like the guy who locks your experience.

[Deleted]

I never tried to bg at low level, always waited till atleast lvl 15 I think. I never been a big BGer, cept a time in BC when I was gearing my panzerkin (moonkin tank)

Recently gotten into it again since I made a Horde toon on a pvp server and am having fun on it. It is a nice change from always losing.

[Redlikemyrage]

Definitely. Maybe a 5% or 10% increase in xp for every character above 80 or something. And then you can toggle the buff on or off by talking to a guy like the guy who locks your experience.

I kinda like this. There is no reason to have BoAs both increase leveling speed through xp gain and how much faster you can kill things.

I think a change like this would benefit the game as a whole, even outside of what BoAs do to low level pvp.

Low level dungeon runs that are actually fun anyone?

[Deleted]

I've leveled characters, such as my Mage and my Hunter, purely through battlegrounds more or less from start to finish. Both were done when the brackets were between 10-19, 20-29, etc, which obviously meant you could end up being targeted - because of this, I had a lot of fun tracking down bits of blue BoE gear and enchanting it and generally keeping my characters equipped for what they faced. It was a nice change from the constant grind of quests and dungeons that I normally did to level, and when i capped my characters I had a much better understanding of how to play them in all situations.

New WoW players are going to be put off, sure - I was exactly the same. I entered a battleground on my first character, my Druid, at level 11 and after the annihilation myself and my team experienced in WSG that day, I didn't open up the PvP tab again until Wrath was released

Once I'd come to terms with the game and was more comfortable with it, I started to PvP more often, both at high and low levels, with and without friends. It's a curve, and I don't think it's unfair to say that players who have spent more time learning the game are more likely to have the skill and the means to play better. If players are throwing in the towel altogether because they've been whooped the first time round, then that's fine, but I don't think it's a mentality that belongs to everyone.

[endersblade]

Is there still a active twink community?

I remember I had a lot of fun twinking some lvl 19s back in TBC. Getting head, shoulder and leg enchants were pretty tricky before you even had a char at max level.

I recently stepped into the wonderful world of Lvl 24 twinking. Lots of people seem to enjoy Trial twinking (level 20), but level 24 is the cap of that bracket, so once you turn off exp you're in a bracket with trial accounts and level 24 twinks, and at 24, you get to dominate the trial accounts :-) Of all the twinking I've tried over the past year or so, I get almost insta-queues at 24, whereas 19, 60, 70, 80, 84, all had insanely long queues, or never actually getting in at all.

Which classes and specs are viable/dominant completely depend on the level bracket you're twinking in. Some specs don't get the OP/iconic abilities until certain levels, so they are just sort of lackluster at lower levels. (Rogues don't get sprint at 24...this annoys me sooooo much lol). Some classes and specs just do ridiculous damage at lower levels, less so as they level, while some classes and specs just sort of do either even damage across the board or actually suck at lower levels, but get more powerful at higher levels.

I was leveling a holy pally, to twink at 84. (I have a group of friends who runs Cata instances at 84.) I was in a BG around level 20 or so. Full BoAs, of course. I stood in the middle of the map in WSG and obliterated people with Denounce and Holy Shock. In one WSG I got 62 kills and not a single death. Fast forward to about level 64 or so, I tried the same thing and just got murdered. More classes get their full toolbox by later levels, all of their CC/stuns/interrupts, higher damage abilities, etc. that they didn't have access to at lower levels. Never mind a bigger HP pool, more armor, etc.

So anyway, yes, twinking is alive and well. It's not as massively spread out and popular as it used to be, Blizzard seems hellbent on nerfing twinking into the ground, and it turns a lot of people off to it. But if you look hard enough, you'll find it. And, come WoD, with BoAs being account-wide like mounts and pets, you'll be able to hop servers and not have to worry about re-buying all of them. And even right now, as of 5.4.2, you can mail them across different servers. So find a server that has a good population of twinks, roll a char, and go to town.

[Baracuda]

The improved scaling in WoD and removal of hit rating and expertise will definitely help! But I still think the gap between white-geared noob and fully enchanted heirloom needs to be reduced a lot. Quest rewards need to be better and "starting gear" must be awarded from low-level BGs too (also new WoD feature).

[Senathor]

The improved scaling in WoD and removal of hit rating and expertise will definitely help! But I still think the gap between white-geared noob and fully enchanted heirloom needs to be reduced a lot. Quest rewards need to be better and "starting gear" must be awarded from low-level BGs too (also new WoD feature).

I kind of think that hit rating should stay in the game. Exp has always been a pain in the ass stat, but I always liked mentaining my hit cap, maybe it's just me. Back in the day being hit-capped made me feel powerful.

[Dessan]

I have to say I see your point, but I think anyone joining a game this old has to bear in mind that there will be players more experienced than themselves at every bracket.