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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    The only fix for the social problems in WoW is to shut the game down and start up a different MMO in a different genre with a different enough playstyle that the "problems" from WoW will shun it.

    The behaviors have become so ingrained and people have become so self-righteous about being assholes to strangers that I can't see any way back out of it.

    But, good work folks, you trolled WoW, and you have wounded the game fatally.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Grindy content just makes the evildoers run in packs because the game makes grinding in groups more efficient. If anything it makes the trolls worse.

    Individual grindy content that was required for the holy heroic raiders to do their thing, hah, we'll never see that in the game again.
    No, not necessarily grindy as in "kill 1,000,000 stupid ox dudes to get anywhere in this zone" but grindy as in "takes a long time to accomplish". It doesn't have to be boring at all- just quit with the difficulty nerfs. And it's not a magic fix; you can never weed out all the assholes. Ever. But it would go a looong way.

    They can use common sense. No one likes to do the same quest a million times. So for each character you raise to 90, you get a permanent leveling buff for your other characters. But that very first 90 should still be an epic journey- by the time you get there, you should have learned your class in and out by necessity because you had to work your way through different difficult situations, not because the devs pushed off the burden of teaching you how to play well to fucking websites that don't even belong to them. Hell, it was harder to hit 40 in vanilla than it is to reach max level now. AND the content on the way is stupid easy. No one has to group, no one has to work together for quests. It's a welcome mat for anti-social assholes.

    Edit: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Leveling design (and some game design in general) on this game has gotten really, really lazy. You can tell when a business shifts its agenda from "making a good product and thereby a good profit" to "making a good profit however we can". I'm fairly certain the focus isn't creating a good game any longer, it's simply keeping as many subscriptions for as long as possible. That approach never works in creative endeavors, the end product ends up stale, two-dimensional and lacking. You can see it with TV shows that took off and were too successful for their own good. Surprise hit movies that get shitty soul-less sequels pumped out. And it happens to games. Sure, they can fool people for a little while, but after people realize they're not buying "Cool Thing 2.0", but "Supposedly Cool Thing designed to make you buy it again and made as cheaply as possible to get as much money out of it before people wise up and realize we're not even really the same fuckers who made the first product", they STOP BUYING IT.
    Last edited by Alternategray; 2013-12-18 at 06:37 AM.

  2. #242
    I would simply suggest removing LFR all together. It has only proven a few things:

    1) As OP posted, there is zero accountability. People are morons, a-holes, etc.
    2) It provides a welfare system for the lazy that want to faceroll the raid, be done in a week then cancel sub and leave WoW till end of next expansion. As others have pointed out, Blizzard is a business. To keep people subbed, there has to be a hook/incentive. If people can just simply steamroll a raid without any work they get bored and leave.
    3) Flex raid grants the accountability to some degree over LFR, as there is a bit more organization and structure. People are required to know their class to some degree and have to know not to stand in bad stuff. It allows the "casual" a chance to come and go as they please but also requires a little more discipline.
    4) without any required skills to run LFR, and without any reward and "heck yeah!" moments when a boss is downed the morons/slackers turn to the forums to cry there isn't enough to do. It wasn't enough for them to clear the raid that was handed to them, they take that for granted and want "more" despite being given something.
    5) Seeing as there is now no significant difference in recognition between LFR and Flex/normal much less anything to make the heroic raiders stand out as it can be handed to people in the next expansion when content becomes moot, there is less incentive to climb any ladder to work toward any higher goals. In the business world, if the poor high school dropout was given a ferrari and mansion and $50/hr there would be no incentive to climb any ladders. Such is the way I view this game, that without a ladder to climb or any incentive to do so, the game will stagnate and you will wind up with an increase in the morons/slackers populace.

    Remove LFR, and just have flex as the new lower standard, to replace it.

    Lastly, I leave you with this post

    https://twitter.com/Gnomerix/status/407484659548033024

    I would wholly agree, Flex is a far better idea than LFR ever was. It gives a sense of community and effort back and feels like proper raiding and you don't have to carry the morons and slackers.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    I have close to 100 LFR runs on all my characters combined, and out of those encounters, I have had bad experiences (meaning wiping constantly and the group dissolving) about three times. All the rest were pretty smooth and people were cordial. There are several wipes here and there especially on the later Bosses, but the groups usually end up succeeding the second/third try.

    Most of the time I breeze through the 4 SOO Wings in under 2 hours.

    I don't know if it's people with an anti-LFR agenda trying to exaggerate or just focusing on their bad experiences, trying to make it look as if every single LFR group was crap. They aren't.

    There is really nothing to fix in LFR, it's basically a PUG for Christ's sakes. If you have bad luck and get a bad group, just leave and requeue again. It's not like BGs you don't get a deserter debuff last I checked. If you introduce too many mechanics to vote/kick people , those mechanics WILL BE ABUSED. If you have such hate towards LFR, don't run it simple as that. There are three other difficulty modes to choose from.
    What the what?! I hear stories like this occasionally, and it boggles my mind. I've run LFR in the hundreds, and I have no idea where you people come from, but I want to go there. Not to be rude, but all 4 wings in 2 hours EVER, much less "most of the time"? I have to call you out on that one. That's total bullshit. In flex groups that down the bosses in 3-ish minutes, it still takes longer than that. Unless you mean 2 hours per wing, which is actually realistic for LFR. If not, I have no idea why you'd claim that, but lying is not helping the discussion. And in easily the majority of every SoO LFR wing I've ever run someone seriously goes off on someone else. It's a nice change when it doesn't happen.

    If you're talking about PRIOR tiers... Before SoO MSV was usually pretty smooth. Heart of Fear seemed to attract assholes like no tomorrow. Terrace mostly ran into technical issues, some bickering but that's about it. Some wings in ToT was where you started to see some griefing similar to HoF, like in the Forgotten Depths (fuck that place). But aside from the Depths, ToT wasn't that bad and got way better over time. Three months in and hardly anyone was wiping in my experience (unless it was a ninja-pull etc.). SoO? Holy shit. That's where the hot mess is. Thing is, it's been 3 months and most groups do no better now than in the first month, in my experience.

    LFR runs nothing like a PUG. I pugged through the end of vanilla, all of BC, and much of Wrath and MoP and the dynamics of LFR are completely different. If it was a PUG, most of these problems wouldn't exist. Either you haven't ever pugged or you haven't done LFR or someone's standing beside you wiping your drool off your keyboard so it doesn't short out.

    No deserter debuff? You've done a hundred LFR runs, and you leave whenever you have a bad group and you claim you don't know if there's a deserter debuff? Last you checked, of course. I smell pathological Blizzard ass-kissing. Or it's possible you're just looking to get others banned by coming into the thread and making the most inane dumbass statements you can think up.
    Last edited by Alternategray; 2013-12-18 at 07:13 AM.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanketsu View Post
    Remove LFR, and just have flex as the new lower standard, to replace it.
    this is a really good soloution as long as it was super easy to find flexi runs through an Oqueue or blizzard group finder.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss the Warlords of Draenor launch night and a butcher that goes insane

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    you mean the chart that only had like 2 months of data for SoO? unlike the rest of the raids.
    They posted stats for earlier raids earlier.

    By 5.4, some 54% of players had downed LS (on LFR or above). This was more than 4x the number that had downed Garrosh (on LFR or above) in that more recent dump. Yes, we're not at the end up 5.4, but this is LFR we're talking about.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They posted stats for earlier raids earlier.

    By 5.4, some 54% of players had downed LS (on LFR or above). This was more than 4x the number that had downed Garrosh (on LFR or above) in that more recent dump. Yes, we're not at the end up 5.4, but this is LFR we're talking about.
    This. Its not like LFR has progression, those who are going to kill Garrosh have killed Garrosh.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    This. Its not like LFR has progression, those who are going to kill Garrosh have killed Garrosh.
    Yup. More than 3/4 of those who were doing LFR in the prior tier (and possibly more, if most of those Garrosh kills are non-LFR raiders) have said "screw this, not going to bother" about clearing SoO.

    LFR has failed to keep people engaged in the last tier, as some of us had long been predicting. I think the Q4 sub numbers are going to be really bad.

    The last tier of Cataclysm, you had more people clearing DS on LFR. Imagine how badly subs would have tanked then if LFR had been like SoO.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  8. #248
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    I wish there was some formula that could judge the player.

    For example
    A player in this case for example DPS, measures:
    - Dps done
    - Damage taken
    - Activity
    - Number of kills in LFR

    Then when that formula ends up in a certain number it rewards the player to become a Flex Lfr player.
    That way it could make the LFR player a LFRFlex player.

    Not sure if this is doable but would be great if there was some mechanic to measure the players.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Because Flex still requires a third party addon
    No it doesn't, Blizzard put their own version hit, hit O and go to raid then other raids and voila.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultragrisen View Post
    I wish there was some formula that could judge the player.

    For example
    A player in this case for example DPS, measures:
    - Dps done
    - Damage taken
    - Activity
    - Number of kills in LFR
    That would probably wipe out unskilled players and afkers.
    It wont fix the attitude of players.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultragrisen View Post
    I wish there was some formula that could judge the player.

    For example
    A player in this case for example DPS, measures:
    - Dps done
    - Damage taken
    - Activity
    - Number of kills in LFR

    Then when that formula ends up in a certain number it rewards the player to become a Flex Lfr player.
    That way it could make the LFR player a LFRFlex player.

    Not sure if this is doable but would be great if there was some mechanic to measure the players.
    What about Damage Done? People put too high of an emphasis on DPS and not Damage done, someone could pound for the first 30 seconds of a fight do awesome DPS die and do jack for damage.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  12. #252
    I wonder how many of the players who complain about people in LFR are the ones who are runining LFR w/ their judmental behavior? The only solution if for people to realize they need to stop taking LFR serious and just roll w/ it, if it has too many wipes or low dps, or something u dont like then leave, instead of flaming or being condecending to the group.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    When one Ironstar, and only one, rolls over 8 people and they don't die that means it ha been nerfed to remove any expectation from the group. What they should have done is have only one engineer spawn, rotating which side it spawns on, and have the star kill people. Then there is no personal requirement for anybody, like whoever is assigned to do engineer, an am actual group requirement of moving.
    Then you should be furious about Flex too because I've seen players fail on the star time and again on Flex without any deaths to show for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by sozo View Post
    I wonder how many of the players who complain about people in LFR are the ones who are runining LFR w/ their judmental behavior? The only solution if for people to realize they need to stop taking LFR serious and just roll w/ it, if it has too many wipes or low dps, or something u dont like then leave, instead of flaming or being condecending to the group.
    just be accepting of bad play and deal with the time spent in queue, repair bills and the debuff for leaving

    It's not judgemental. When you are doing 60k dps you are WAY below where you can be and that level of dps isn't enough to beat the enrage on most encounters. There is such thing as bad dps Blizzard doors have enrage mechanics and fights that are dps checks like Norushn.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Then you should be furious about Flex too because I've seen players fail on the star time and again on Flex without any deaths to show for it.
    Except that it IS fatal on Flex and I've seen it kill many people. There is a reason I ask for AoTC for heirloom farm groups.

  15. #255
    Here is how to fix it. Don't do it.

    Have an alternative to it if you hate doing LFR (I.E future hard Heroic Dungeons) so I never have to step into that cesspool of stupidity.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Blizzard has only recently been getting their collective heads around the massive social problems in the game. Still a long way to go and I'm not certain that they understand what to do about it.
    It's because they take too much of a laissez faire approach to player interactions. In Guild Wars about 75% of the crap I see coming over trade chat daily would be a perma-ban. Of course, they can afford to do this because they're not dependent on subscriptions, but the result was that 90% of the players in Guild Wars were polite and pleasant to interact with. In WoW pretty much anything goes. Hate speech, public sexting, and blatant trolling get a slap on the wrist at the very most. Blizzard says that we just don't see the consequences, and that may be true, but when you see the same people time and again engaging in the same behavior you can only conclude that there are no consequences. There's also the fact that the right-click "Report for Language" option only shows up sporadically. I still can't predict when it is and isn't available. Even if I click that I get the feeling it goes into the void. Blizzard even came right out on their forums and threw their hands up in the air saying, "Well, we can't police every player interaction." In other words, if we can't do it right just fuck it and don't do it at all. This is why the community is in the state it is today, not because of LFR.

    Besides, they don't have to police everything. They already have mature language filters. Just redirect questionable statements from public channels and public (LFR/LFD) instances to a log file and have one guy look over them to verify whether or not the interaction was appropriate. If Blizzard would just spend a few months focusing on player interactions I think that they would find the problem quickly resolve itself and then they wouldn't have so many player interactions to police because the culture will change for the better.

    Honestly the same restrictions should apply to LFD and LFR as supposedly apply to public channels. Unfortunately right now it feels like they don't give a crap about either.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    It's because they take too much of a laissez faire approach to player interactions. In Guild Wars about 75% of the crap I see coming over trade chat daily would be a perma-ban. Of course, they can afford to do this because they're not dependent on subscriptions, but the result was that 90% of the players in Guild Wars were polite and pleasant to interact with. In WoW pretty much anything goes. Hate speech, public sexting, and blatant trolling get a slap on the wrist at the very most. Blizzard says that we just don't see the consequences, and that may be true, but when you see the same people time and again engaging in the same behavior you can only conclude that there are no consequences. There's also the fact that the right-click "Report for Language" option only shows up sporadically. I still can't predict when it is and isn't available. Even if I click that I get the feeling it goes into the void. Blizzard even came right out on their forums and threw their hands up in the air saying, "Well, we can't police every player interaction." In other words, if we can't do it right just fuck it and don't do it at all. This is why the community is in the state it is today, not because of LFR.

    Besides, they don't have to police everything. They already have mature language filters. Just redirect questionable statements from public channels and public (LFR/LFD) instances to a log file and have one guy look over them to verify whether or not the interaction was appropriate. If Blizzard would just spend a few months focusing on player interactions I think that they would find the problem quickly resolve itself and then they wouldn't have so many player interactions to police because the culture will change for the better.

    Honestly the same restrictions should apply to LFD and LFR as supposedly apply to public channels. Unfortunately right now it feels like they don't give a crap about either.
    Public sexting? Yea no. Your reports don't go to the void they just don't punish people for one or two reports because that means that just a few people are upset. Trade chat is a open discussion channel as sometimes stuff will come up, and people will have varying opinions on it, and you have to accept that. There ARE language rules but some words are allowed, especially since they appear ingame. If I'm not mistaken bitch comes up a lot. Every weeken on the forums the same DK starts a thread about why he loves to gank and every weekend people report him. There isn't a rule against hurting up your feelings in chat by saying something you don't like, and that is what people want inforced.

  18. #258
    tbh i think lfr is fine. if you want to raid in a more competitive / friendly / competent environment, get into flex + normal. you don't have to do lfr.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by saucyboy View Post
    tbh i think lfr is fine. if you want to raid in a more competitive / friendly / competent environment, get into flex + normal. you don't have to do lfr.
    Of course nobody has to do anything. That doesn't change the fact that LfR ha Ben crammed into hear progression in as many places as possible, contributes to item level inflation and drops tier/trinkets better than the ast patch heroic ones.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yup. More than 3/4 of those who were doing LFR in the prior tier (and possibly more, if most of those Garrosh kills are non-LFR raiders) have said "screw this, not going to bother" about clearing SoO.

    LFR has failed to keep people engaged in the last tier, as some of us had long been predicting. I think the Q4 sub numbers are going to be really bad.

    The last tier of Cataclysm, you had more people clearing DS on LFR. Imagine how badly subs would have tanked then if LFR had been like SoO.
    T16 is a pain in the ass in LFR. T15 was, on the other hand, except for Megaera and the trash in the first wing, a very LFR-friendly tier.

    Everyone who's done the second wing of T16 knows it's a slog, but at least the worst of the trash inside Org was nerfed.

    So, then, you come to the fourth wing of T16. You have all that trash. Hopefully Blackfuse dies in one shot. Then some bug trash where a bunch of people are going to die but hopefully there won't be more wipes. Then hopefully Paragons die in one shot.

    Then, most of an hour into things if they have gone well. you are standing in front of the giant hallway of "trash that needs CC" looking at squares and moons and thinking "Oh great now the fun is going to start," and hopefully there is actually some CC that doesn't get broken. If you have seen this go badly before, you will have a powerful urge to leave group the moment you look into this hallway.

    Then, once you get through the hallway, perhaps without dying, perhaps after five wipes and 45 minutes and several changes of group membership, you get to Garrosh. Where basically the only reward is, once he's dead, the instance is over. NO HEIRLOOMS FOR YOU despite what is honestly a pretty arduous voyage to get here.

    But, you might think, hey, I could just leave right now, and the instance would ALSO be over.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Of course nobody has to do anything. That doesn't change the fact that LfR ha Ben crammed into hear progression in as many places as possible, contributes to item level inflation and drops tier/trinkets better than the ast patch heroic ones.
    EVERY tier drops tier/trinkets better than the last patch heroic ones. If Flex is so awesome, go get them there? Normal's on a different lockout ... get them there too?

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