Page 14 of 25 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
24
... LastLast
  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    I think LFR is a good service to the game by allowing people to see extremely watered down versions of fights and of course seeing the Lore.

    The biggest issues I have with lfr are
    1. People have basically 0 accountability
    2. Que times are horrendous

    my suggestions
    1. Offer tanks and healers some incentive to que, no the satchel is horrible. One idea is for every wing of lfr you tank or heal you can be placed in the front of the line as a dps toon.

    You tank Vale of Eternal on your warrior
    you then que for Vale of Eternal on your druid dps and skip the line

    or give an increased loot drop for healers and tanks nothing major

    or double valor for tanks/healers



    As for accountability, the vote kick rule basically ensures every group will have trolls or afkers. People should be able to vote kick whenever they want. The dps in the SOO tier has been 20k-40k lower than it was last patch. If someone wants to roll in and do 20k dps than the group should be able to kick them.
    As a Tank going through LFR right now to try and get this Legendary done I can say that for me, there's pretty much nothing outside of a free subscription that would get me to go back there. It's not the ease of it, it's not even that people are bad. It's because people are just down right nasty. I don't mind Tanking with a few badly performing people in there as long as Enrage times are met. Hell, our guild is one of the very few that will try and take "bad" players and help them out by going over logs, working with them on their rotations, etc.

    LFR just isn't a nice place at all mainly due to the way people treat each other. it's not even directed at me but just seeing what people say to each other makes it extremely hard to want to go there.

  2. #262
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    The Frozen Wasteland
    Posts
    2,573
    So here's a funny thing.

    Where is the only place in LFR I have seen a pair of boomkins doing 250-350k DPS, APIECE?

    (a) MSV Wing 1
    (b) SoO Wing 4

    You guess right, MSV Wing 1.

    I feel like Blizzard really fucked the LFR crowd over by making the earlier tiers a more fun playground. And I do it too. I would MUCH rather go play MSV LFR for "fun" on an overgeared character than set foot in the epic trash and trolling of SoO LFR.

  3. #263
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Welcome to the Metachronopolis!
    Posts
    12,015
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    this is a really good soloution as long as it was super easy to find flexi runs through an Oqueue or blizzard group finder.
    There's a very large difference between being guaranteed a spot in a run through matchmaking versus getting a spot in a flex raid. Especially given the rather ridiculous requirements that most groups seem to have. If the answer to this is to "Make your own group" then that's not a solution that 'fixes' Raid Finder in the least. People theoretically can do that now for both Flex and Raid Finder.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  4. #264
    WoW needs to add more options and more avenues for personal progression that doesn't rely on other players exclusively.

    LFR gets all of the "bads" because there is no further avenue for advancement after a week of heroics. Timeless Isle was a horrible idea because it allows bads to gear up to LFR without even having to learn heroics! Not like heroics require any learning these days, another failure of MoP.

    LFR should be for people who like to and want to raid, but can't commit the consistent time and like that on-demand content, not just "everyone who wants to continue to progress their character."

    If you could get LFR level gear in 5-man content, or through solo content that actually presented some challenge (like a re-worked Proving Grounds system), I would STILL do LFR for the lore, to see the fights/bosses, and because I like large-group content in MMOs.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    But, you might think, hey, I could just leave right now, and the instance would ALSO be over.
    And from there it's a short step to "if I don't run it again, it's also over. And why exactly do I want to run it again?"
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  6. #266
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    The Frozen Wasteland
    Posts
    2,573
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And from there it's a short step to "if I don't run it again, it's also over. And why exactly do I want to run it again?"
    I really think Blizzard can do better than providing players with something that has them thinking "I sure wish this was over."

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by heerobya View Post
    WoW needs to add more options and more avenues for personal progression that doesn't rely on other players exclusively.

    LFR gets all of the "bads" because there is no further avenue for advancement after a week of heroics. Timeless Isle was a horrible idea because it allows bads to gear up to LFR without even having to learn heroics! Not like heroics require any learning these days, another failure of MoP.

    LFR should be for people who like to and want to raid, but can't commit the consistent time and like that on-demand content, not just "everyone who wants to continue to progress their character."

    If you could get LFR level gear in 5-man content, or through solo content that actually presented some challenge (like a re-worked Proving Grounds system), I would STILL do LFR for the lore, to see the fights/bosses, and because I like large-group content in MMOs.
    Gear is a means to and end. Personal progression such as raising rank was done in the Brawlers Guild and reputation grinds. The issue with other gearing paths, especially solo ones, is that they are easier than the other paths and generally leave them dead. Solo content should never reward gear near group content because it just cannot be made as hard as group content, it either ends up very spec/gear dependent or it would need to be tuned to match each of the 34 specs differently. 5-man content doesn't have the weekly loot lockout, which means it is faster to gear through it than LFR. 5-mans giving the same as or better gear than LFR would kill LFR in a day. Those who use it to "see the content" do it once at the start of the patch and never again.

  8. #268
    I am Murloc! roahn the warlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In your base, killing your dudes
    Posts
    5,461
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    LFR is facing issues because flex has finally separated actual casuals from shitters.

    Casuals run flex because it is quick, interesting and offers better rewards.

    Shitters do LFR because 50k dps isn't tolerated in flex groups.
    Pretty much this. Flex is the best thing to happen to wow. And since that new patch 5.4.2 it's so easy to find a flex group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by heerobya View Post
    WoW needs to add more options and more avenues for personal progression that doesn't rely on other players exclusively.

    LFR gets all of the "bads" because there is no further avenue for advancement after a week of heroics. Timeless Isle was a horrible idea because it allows bads to gear up to LFR without even having to learn heroics! Not like heroics require any learning these days, another failure of MoP.

    LFR should be for people who like to and want to raid, but can't commit the consistent time and like that on-demand content, not just "everyone who wants to continue to progress their character."

    If you could get LFR level gear in 5-man content, or through solo content that actually presented some challenge (like a re-worked Proving Grounds system), I would STILL do LFR for the lore, to see the fights/bosses, and because I like large-group content in MMOs.
    Nah, don't like that idea. Wow is a MMO. Multiplayer is in the name
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    T16 is a pain in the ass in LFR. T15 was, on the other hand, except for Megaera and the trash in the first wing, a very LFR-friendly tier.

    Everyone who's done the second wing of T16 knows it's a slog, but at least the worst of the trash inside Org was nerfed.

    So, then, you come to the fourth wing of T16. You have all that trash. Hopefully Blackfuse dies in one shot. Then some bug trash where a bunch of people are going to die but hopefully there won't be more wipes. Then hopefully Paragons die in one shot.

    Then, most of an hour into things if they have gone well. you are standing in front of the giant hallway of "trash that needs CC" looking at squares and moons and thinking "Oh great now the fun is going to start," and hopefully there is actually some CC that doesn't get broken. If you have seen this go badly before, you will have a powerful urge to leave group the moment you look into this hallway.

    Then, once you get through the hallway, perhaps without dying, perhaps after five wipes and 45 minutes and several changes of group membership, you get to Garrosh. Where basically the only reward is, once he's dead, the instance is over. NO HEIRLOOMS FOR YOU despite what is honestly a pretty arduous voyage to get here.

    But, you might think, hey, I could just leave right now, and the instance would ALSO be over.

    - - - Updated - - -


    EVERY tier drops tier/trinkets better than the last patch heroic ones. If Flex is so awesome, go get them there? Normal's on a different lockout ... get them there too?
    The LFR ToT trinkets certainly were not better than heroic tier 14 trinkets in most cases. The rppm didn't come into play until you had the legendary meta and by that time groups who had heroic were fairly deep into ToT multiple weeks of farming.

    Tier 16 was the MOSt friendly tier yet. there were so many completely faceroll fights. Immersues is a joke, the protectors are faceroll. Norushen was only broken at the start, Sha doesnt even care about Pride, Galakras doesn't have any mechanics whatsoever, Jugg the bombs dont hurt when they explode. Shamans was the first fight with actual mechanics oops wait no now falling ash doesnt even dent your healthpool. Nazgarim was not hard, at all, it was a combination of people tunneling and inability to dodge ravagers that was the issue. Oh and the ravagers were still super light hitting. Malkorok? 3 pools for 25 people. Spoils was hard because of opening boxes and bombs. Thok? lol he doesnt even eat people. Siegecrafter mechanics are tuned down heavily damage wise, same with Paragons. Garrosh was hard-ish at first but then they nerfed mind control to the point where you don't need to be ready to handle the mechanic.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Tier 16 was the MOSt friendly tier yet.
    So why did completion rates drop off so steadily from wing to wing? T16 LFR is so friendly it shed most of its intended audience -- what?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  11. #271
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    The Frozen Wasteland
    Posts
    2,573
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The LFR ToT trinkets certainly were not better than heroic tier 14 trinkets in most cases. The rppm didn't come into play until you had the legendary meta and by that time groups who had heroic were fairly deep into ToT multiple weeks of farming.

    Tier 16 was the MOSt friendly tier yet. there were so many completely faceroll fights. Immersues is a joke, the protectors are faceroll. Norushen was only broken at the start, Sha doesnt even care about Pride, Galakras doesn't have any mechanics whatsoever, Jugg the bombs dont hurt when they explode. Shamans was the first fight with actual mechanics oops wait no now falling ash doesnt even dent your healthpool. Nazgarim was not hard, at all, it was a combination of people tunneling and inability to dodge ravagers that was the issue. Oh and the ravagers were still super light hitting. Malkorok? 3 pools for 25 people. Spoils was hard because of opening boxes and bombs. Thok? lol he doesnt even eat people. Siegecrafter mechanics are tuned down heavily damage wise, same with Paragons. Garrosh was hard-ish at first but then they nerfed mind control to the point where you don't need to be ready to handle the mechanic.
    You're pretty much 100% wrong in every possible way about what makes T16 the least friendly thing ever introduced into LFR.

    It's like you haven't even been in it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So why did completion rates drop off so steadily from wing to wing? T16 LFR is so friendly it shed most of its intended audience -- what?
    He does not understand the implications of shitloads of trash that is a long way from the instance portal in LFR.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Again, this is inconsistent with reality. LFR is still the most popular form of raiding in the game. Wishful thinking doesn't generate facts. If I had to speculate I would say that Flex probably siphoned more players from Normal than it did from LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    Do you have any evidence to back that up?
    Ghostcrawler said it on his Twitter feed while he was still working at Blizzard:
    LFR is still more popular than flex. However we think flex will be more fun for many of our players so we don't mind some transition
    Like I said, LFR is still more popular and wishing that Flex would overtake it won't make it so. Blizzard acknowledges that many players like Flex better, but they also realize that inclusion is good for business so they're going to continue to cater to everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So why did completion rates drop off so steadily from wing to wing? T16 LFR is so friendly it shed most of its intended audience -- what?
    Simple, casual players, those who don't have the TIME to raid are using Flex. Flex is fast, better rewards, significantly more difficult and as the devs put it, feels like raiding.

    Most flex groups are wing 1 and 2 since 3+4 hate significantly harder than the first two. Many players have abandoned LFR completely and simply do Flex, but not all of flex. The number of 1/2 pugs is far greater than 3/4 pugs, so they gear up in those raids and may touch later difficulties eventually.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Then, once you get through the hallway, perhaps without dying, perhaps after five wipes and 45 minutes and several changes of group membership, you get to Garrosh. Where basically the only reward is, once he's dead, the instance is over. NO HEIRLOOMS FOR YOU despite what is honestly a pretty arduous voyage to get here.
    Well... we also get that tree in the Vale from the quest. :<
    This is why all my characters have a single kill of each boss of SoO in LFR, I just want that tree then I never return.

    But yeah, lack of any worthwhile rewards from the final tier in LFR really kills my motivation. With the gear reset incoming, the only motivation to see it is the lore since I'll be vendoring my SoO LFR gear for quest greens in a few months. If there were heirlooms off Garrosh, I'd probably be motivated to go, but there isn't so I'm not.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    You're pretty much 100% wrong in every possible way about what makes T16 the least friendly thing ever introduced into LFR.

    It's like you haven't even been in it.

    - - - Updated - - -


    He does not understand the implications of shitloads of trash that is a long way from the instance portal in LFR.
    Tier 15 was full of soft enrages that LFR players just couldn't handle. Jinrokh frequently had all 4 pools up before LFR downed him, Horridon tunneling left adds overwhelming the group. If you don't have the dps to nuke Sul before sandstorm you wiped, if the nest group couldn't keep up Jikun would wipe you, Durumu...yea. Iron Qon had te stacks at the end that would kill groups if they had lost too may dps. Li Shen was entirely soft enrages.

    Tier 16 doesn't have that. The fights either enrage or don't, it doesn't get harder and harder a the fight goes on. Low dps in ToT meant the fight was harder whether or not you met the enrage. In siege it is only a problem if you meet the enrage on most bosses.

    Also Siege hardly has shitloads of trash and the portal is only far. On Thok. The ONLY trash in seige that is hard is before Garrosh and that's because bads are too used to AoE spamming every trash pull

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    Well... we also get that tree in the Vale from the quest. :<
    This is why all my characters have a single kill of each boss of SoO in LFR, I just want that tree then I never return.

    But yeah, lack of any worthwhile rewards from the final tier in LFR really kills my motivation. With the gear reset incoming, the only motivation to see it is the lore since I'll be vendoring my SoO LFR gear for quest greens in a few months. If there were heirlooms off Garrosh, I'd probably be motivated to go, but there isn't so I'm not.
    Exactly the kind of person LFR is for. I understand the interest in seeing the content, and the tree pretty.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Simple, casual players, those who don't have the TIME to raid are using Flex. Flex is fast, better rewards, significantly more difficult and as the devs put it, feels like raiding.

    Most flex groups are wing 1 and 2 since 3+4 hate significantly harder than the first two. Many players have abandoned LFR completely and simply do Flex, but not all of flex. The number of 1/2 pugs is far greater than 3/4 pugs, so they gear up in those raids and may touch later difficulties eventually.
    Except the TOTAL completion stats are down. Those include Flex (and normal, and heroic). People moving from LFR to Flex wouldn't have changed the numbers at all.

    These players aren't going back to to 3 or 4 in LFR, even if they cannot clear them in Flex.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Vormav View Post
    Yeah of course. That's how it always is. If you have anything positive to say about WoW pre-Cataclysm then you're nostalgia blinded only. Such bullshit too because I've commented so often on how bad certain things were in those days too. Newsflash for you my friend its possible to find things good and bad in every expac.

    And no - WoW didn't start to really bleed subs until LFR came in. Go look up the history if you don't believe me. Every single giant sub loss came after LFR was put in. And again for the record - I'm not claiming LFR was the cause of all the sub losses.

    Edit: Actually instead of just telling you this, I'll do you one better. - http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/05/09/wo...n-subscribers/ So as you see one month before Fireland's drops Blizzard was hovering at 11 mil+ subs still. Now fast forward today we're under 7.5 million subs. So nah WoW didn't start 'bleeding' subs 'long before LFR' came out unless you consider long before to mean just a couple months.
    YES. I get really, really tired of people telling me that I didn't really like This or That. "Nostalgia Rose-tinted Nostalgia yada yada". Honestly it pisses me off. I played the game for years before many of the current changes were implemented, and I obviously wasn't playing it because it made me miserable or because I had nothing else to do- not even counting other hobbies I have a hundred unplayed games on Steam. Saying the game is "so much better now" is purely subjective. For one thing easier =/= better, and all the people who insist that it does are the ones I want the fuck off my lawn. Remember when reaching a new level was enough of an achievement to actually say "ding" in guild? Guild chat would sound like a fucking pinball machine if players still did that. Flat out, the devs have removed the sense of achievement from too many things in the name of "Quality of Life" bullshit.
    Last edited by Alternategray; 2013-12-19 at 09:01 AM.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Exactly the kind of person LFR is for. I understand the interest in seeing the content, and the tree pretty.
    Well, there's also transmog. I hem and haw trying to decide if I want to send my mistweaver monk back into SoO to finish her teir set for transmogging.

    From Blizzard's PoV, it's probably a tangled mess of motivations to satisfy. I want gear, but only as a means to an end, the gear itself isn't a primary motivator for me. I want gear so I can finish quests more easily, help my friends, and mog hunt in old content more efficiently.

    On the other hand, a smooth running LFR is fun! Turn up the rock, turn off the instance chat, and feel like a powerhouse in a massive battle. There are times I've felt like that in SoO, but even when they were new previous tiers of LFR just never felt quite so painful. The whole thing feels overtuned for it's intended audience.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Except the TOTAL completion stats are down. Those include Flex (and normal, and heroic). People moving from LFR to Flex wouldn't have changed the numbers at all.

    These players aren't going back to to 3 or 4 in LFR, even if they cannot clear them in Flex.
    Because LFR is that horrible of an experience. They would rather raid part of the raid in Flex than all of it in LFR.

    but remember LFR isn't broken or anything!!!

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Because LFR is that horrible of an experience. They would rather raid part of the raid in Flex than all of it in LFR.

    but remember LFR isn't broken or anything!!!
    I know, I've been one of those people.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •