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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    It's because they take too much of a laissez faire approach to player interactions. In Guild Wars about 75% of the crap I see coming over trade chat daily would be a perma-ban. Of course, they can afford to do this because they're not dependent on subscriptions, but the result was that 90% of the players in Guild Wars were polite and pleasant to interact with. In WoW pretty much anything goes. Hate speech, public sexting, and blatant trolling get a slap on the wrist at the very most. Blizzard says that we just don't see the consequences, and that may be true, but when you see the same people time and again engaging in the same behavior you can only conclude that there are no consequences. There's also the fact that the right-click "Report for Language" option only shows up sporadically. I still can't predict when it is and isn't available. Even if I click that I get the feeling it goes into the void. Blizzard even came right out on their forums and threw their hands up in the air saying, "Well, we can't police every player interaction." In other words, if we can't do it right just fuck it and don't do it at all. This is why the community is in the state it is today, not because of LFR.

    Besides, they don't have to police everything. They already have mature language filters. Just redirect questionable statements from public channels and public (LFR/LFD) instances to a log file and have one guy look over them to verify whether or not the interaction was appropriate. If Blizzard would just spend a few months focusing on player interactions I think that they would find the problem quickly resolve itself and then they wouldn't have so many player interactions to police because the culture will change for the better.

    Honestly the same restrictions should apply to LFD and LFR as supposedly apply to public channels. Unfortunately right now it feels like they don't give a crap about either.
    So you want blizzard to police everything people say just so delicate little flowers can avoid getting their feelings hurt? That is some grade A bullshit right there. There is an ignore function, use it. Also, don't be so sensitive to what people say, thats no way to go through life.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Tier 15 was full of soft enrages that LFR players just couldn't handle. Jinrokh frequently had all 4 pools up before LFR downed him, Horridon tunneling left adds overwhelming the group. If you don't have the dps to nuke Sul before sandstorm you wiped, if the nest group couldn't keep up Jikun would wipe you, Durumu...yea. Iron Qon had te stacks at the end that would kill groups if they had lost too may dps. Li Shen was entirely soft enrages.

    Tier 16 doesn't have that. The fights either enrage or don't, it doesn't get harder and harder a the fight goes on. Low dps in ToT meant the fight was harder whether or not you met the enrage. In siege it is only a problem if you meet the enrage on most bosses.

    Also Siege hardly has shitloads of trash and the portal is only far. On Thok. The ONLY trash in seige that is hard is before Garrosh and that's because bads are too used to AoE spamming every trash pull
    Yeah. You really don't spend any time in LFR. Which is fine, except you shouldn't pretend to know what its problems is if you don't know AT ALL what you're talking about. And you don't.

    I know you haven't seen Megaera in months.

    You could ASK what people find tedious, difficult, annoying, and/or discouraging about LFR, instead of making things up, and maybe stand a greater chance of being correct and/or learn something in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So you want blizzard to police everything people say just so delicate little flowers can avoid getting their feelings hurt? That is some grade A bullshit right there. There is an ignore function, use it. Also, don't be so sensitive to what people say, thats no way to go through life.
    I'm sorry, but that attitude won't cut it.

    On the one hand sure it is great to have thick skin, and I encourage it.

    On the other hand, disdain for the feelings of others because it's just more fun to be a self-absorbed asshole, and "you can always ignore it," no, that's not okay.

  3. #283
    High Overlord Kulzan's Avatar
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    LFR got too many issues at the moment.

    1. People underperform (LFR doesn't mean you should give everything you have)
    2. People do other things than playing wow while they are in lfr to get "free loot"
    3. Douchbags (most of those douchbags are normally the worst people in the raid with performance)
    4. Afking (normally there's like 2 healers and 5-6 dps's afking through a whole raid, and nothing is done about it)
    5. People doesn't accept failing at all, most of the time it goes on the tanks, but most of the times it is lack of dps, especially in SoO.
    6. Ilvl requirement for SoO lfr is abit low in my opinion. it should be around 510-520.
    7. People doesn't even the dungeon journal to learn the fights. it is one of the best tools you can get ingame for raiding.
    8. People are trying to be responsible for others (this is not right, you shouldn't need to tell a new guy tacts every lfr you go, they should look up themselves before they join.

    There are many other things that need to be fixed to make lfr more smooth as it is. It was ok to begin with, but it have just ended up really bad.

    Some of the worst situations I've had in LFR is in MSV first part. I was healing on my paladin. On Stone Guards I was most likely dpsing with denounce through the fight. because it was almost nothing to heal. After the bossfight I was "afk" because my healing was low. I tried to explain why I did so low healing. and he wanted to kick me because i wasn't healing so much, and I was a healer so I should just save up mana when it wasn't anything to heal. he was flaming me the rest of the raid. and tried to get me kicked.

    Some other situations I had was in 2nd part SoO. Here I was healing on my priest and the problem was on kor'kron shamans. The problem here was that 1 dps decided to go as a tank and wanted to 3 tank and split the bosses. I told a million times it was no point to do this tactic unless the bosses was 100 yds apart and it was waste of time due to lack of dps. We wiped 4 times on the boss and after I told it was waste of time. some guy told me just leave if you don't want to be here. I told him that's not the issue here. why is the boss made harder because 1 dps decide to take over the tankrole. the dps is already worse as it is, and the answer I get is "U f**king elitist jerk, since you're so pro, why aren't you telling us what to do?
    First of all. It's not my responsibility to tell what everyone should do, I was kind and told an easy way to do the boss. and shitstorm was all I got.

    So from my opinion. The biggest issue in LFR is that people aren't thankful enough.

  4. #284
    The problem with your suggestion is this:

    Eventually, people that do decide to tank/heal just to be put in front of the line are going to suffer from queue times because a lot of people are doing it.

    In other words:

    If one person is doing it, it means other people are also.
    "When you've got to get down, but can't find the elevator, you have to do it any way you can. Even if it's with a shovel."- Dark Tower II: Drawing of the Three, Stephen King
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  5. #285
    The problem is... without a 'tangible' reward that benefits character growth... noone really gives a @!#$...

    but if you give tanks & heals better loot drops, more loot drops, or even bonus valor... the GOOD tanks & heals will overgear LFR faster then the dps so it only contributes to the problem.

    I havent really touched LFR in ages... except to speed along my dps buddies' queue times on the RARE occasion I can't talk them out of it.

    One of the few things that holds me back from LFR nowadays (aside from LFR itself) is the fact that if I queue with a friend, I lose the satchel incentive. If they allowed me to retain the satchel bonus while queueing with up to a party, it might make me approach LFR a little differently.

    Still wouldn't do it probably... but friends might have an easier time getting me in there when THEY want to do it.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yeah. You really don't spend any time in LFR. Which is fine, except you shouldn't pretend to know what its problems is if you don't know AT ALL what you're talking about. And you don't.

    I know you haven't seen Megaera in months.

    You could ASK what people find tedious, difficult, annoying, and/or discouraging about LFR, instead of making things up, and maybe stand a greater chance of being correct and/or learn something in the process.

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    I'm sorry, but that attitude won't cut it.

    On the one hand sure it is great to have thick skin, and I encourage it.

    On the other hand, disdain for the feelings of others because it's just more fun to be a self-absorbed asshole, and "you can always ignore it," no, that's not okay.
    I've done LFR, and last tier was a complete clusterfuck from day one to now. Siege ha been nerfed the moment they realized something might actually be fatal other than the sacrificial dagger.

    When there were 15 people dying to Durumus beam or not running with the colors beams, there are more problems than the one guy tunneling Nazgarim.

    ToT only got better because the vendors let you buy normal mode gear for doing nothing.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I've done LFR, and last tier was a complete clusterfuck from day one to now. Siege ha been nerfed the moment they realized something might actually be fatal other than the sacrificial dagger.

    When there were 15 people dying to Durumus beam or not running with the colors beams, there are more problems than the one guy tunneling Nazgarim.

    ToT only got better because the vendors let you buy normal mode gear for doing nothing.
    This is the sort of comment that lets everyone KNOW you don't understand LFR. The fact that half the group dies to the beam doesn't matter, because the remaining half kills Durumu anyway. It's an encounter where groups wipe once at most. People still die to the beam and in purple stuff because no one can tell where the path starts, but that's a separate problem. It's a crappy design but it was nerfed within a week or two to the point where the crappy design doesn't matter.

    Only problem encounter in ToT for a very long time now: Megaera. And you're not going to be able to tell me why.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    This is the sort of comment that lets everyone KNOW you don't understand LFR. The fact that half the group dies to the beam doesn't matter, because the remaining half kills Durumu anyway. It's an encounter where groups wipe once at most. People still die to the beam and in purple stuff because no one can tell where the path starts, but that's a separate problem. It's a crappy design but it was nerfed within a week or two to the point where the crappy design doesn't matter.

    Only problem encounter in ToT for a very long time now: Megaera. And you're not going to be able to tell me why.
    Except when you lose healers to the beam and the tanks die. Or even worse lose tanks to the beam. Maybe you don't have enough dps to make it through the next color phase in time. There was no issue seeing the beam and the eyesores never hurt, the issue was too many bad players not even staying around as warm bodies for the good ones to carry.

    Issue with Mag was the fact that at first many didn't know the order, tanks ended up facing the raid, the cinders were not dispelled right, people stood in poison bombs, tank not tanking current he's was forgotten by healers and low dps meant that tanks would gain high stack numbers. Again soft enrage like high number of breaths meant the fight was hard for LFR

  9. #289
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    Nothing personal, but I'll never step into LFR to be treated like shit and/or be kicked for the most ridiculous reasons.

    Sorry, but I don't see why LFR is still in game with Flex being a casual fun way to raid.
    LFR will always exist simply because there will always be players THAT BAD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    I run flex with guildies and friends, takes 1 min to invite everyone and queue, zone in and clear in ~2 hours.



    I tried LFR when SoO came out, gave up after 3 hours wiping on Dark Shamans.

    I thought LFR was a great addition to the game, only to have players ruin it. I might be biased since I hate tanking for people who can't be arsed to do their job properly.

    Maybe I just have really bad luck with groups.

    REALLY bad luck.
    although I feel your pain maybe not to the same degree. my first introduction to dark shamans LF"R" was a two shot, but only because I solo tanked it the second pull. The entire run lasted six hours with derpdeedoo players pulling all the less than competent moves in the book with Nazgrim ALMOST causing me to leave, the players in that group were just THAT BAD.







    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    LFR will always exist simply because there will always be players THAT BAD.

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    although I feel your pain maybe not to the same degree. my first introduction to dark shamans LF"R" was a two shot, but only because I solo tanked it the second pull. The entire run lasted six hours with derpdeedoo players pulling all the less than competent moves in the book with Nazgrim ALMOST causing me to leave, the players in that group were just THAT BAD.
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad

  11. #291
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Then you never really needed LFR to begin with. Why didn't you just run with them then?


    Why couldn't you run LFR with guildies and friends then? You would easily burn through a wing in a half hour.
    Why would anyone in an organized guild NEED LF"R" in its current incarnation?







    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad
    Bad players don't necessarily think they should be rewarded. But they also don't think that a game that doesn't reward them should get their business.

    "Should" is a two way street.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  13. #293
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Because Flex still requires a third party addon, ever-escalating gear requirements (530 a few weeks ago, 540 now), and about 2-3 hours to organize. I queue for 5 LFR instances at once, run dailies and/or dungeons, and knock out two or three LFRs at one time in 2-3 hours. While I got my dailies done and collected my Secrets of the Empire you were still waiting for your oqueue group to get going. What's casual and fun about your way?
    There is no requirement to us a third party addon in order to put a flex group together. You are in control of the gear requirements for YOUR group that YOU put together. Take a little personal responsibility for why you cannot complete a flex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Except when you lose healers to the beam and the tanks die. Or even worse lose tanks to the beam. Maybe you don't have enough dps to make it through the next color phase in time. There was no issue seeing the beam and the eyesores never hurt, the issue was too many bad players not even staying around as warm bodies for the good ones to carry.

    Issue with Mag was the fact that at first many didn't know the order, tanks ended up facing the raid, the cinders were not dispelled right, people stood in poison bombs, tank not tanking current he's was forgotten by healers and low dps meant that tanks would gain high stack numbers. Again soft enrage like high number of breaths meant the fight was hard for LFR
    Any mechanic that does not involve standing still while blindly mashing a button is too hard for LF"R" "raiders".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad
    Blizzard feeds them this sense of entitlement in order to keep them paying for more. Just like they offer ever increasing difficulty to real players in order to keep them mentally stimulated and coming back for more.







    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Bad players don't necessarily think they should be rewarded. But they also don't think that a game that doesn't reward them should get their business.

    "Should" is a two way street.
    And the issue is they are playing for rewards. Its like the people quiting because they can't fly in Draenor. Sure they might not like it but if you care more about flying on a drake than doing the raids and PvP Blizzard designs...why are you here again?

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    And the issue is they are playing for rewards. Its like the people quiting because they can't fly in Draenor. Sure they might not like it but if you care more about flying on a drake than doing the raids and PvP Blizzard designs...why are you here again?
    It's interesting to wonder about that, but the possible implication that some reasons for playing the game are illegitimate doesn't seem justified. People play for whatever reasons they have, or for no rational reasons at all. Blizzard gets their money, or they don't, regardless of what the motivations are.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's interesting to wonder about that, but the possible implication that some reasons for playing the game are illegitimate doesn't seem justified. People play for whatever reasons they have, or for no rational reasons at all. Blizzard gets their money, or they don't, regardless of what the motivations are.
    But I'm trying to understand. If you are a bad player and realize you are bad, hence in LFR difficulty, why do you expect to be downing the final boss, getting rewards, etc.? And why do you play if you are one of the people who only cares about rewards?

  17. #297
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But I'm trying to understand. If you are a bad player and realize you are bad, hence in LFR difficulty, why do you expect to be downing the final boss, getting rewards, etc.? And why do you play if you are one of the people who only cares about rewards?
    Simply because of "mah $15=yer$15" mentality.

    At the end of the day anyone who says they go to LF"R" to "see" the content is not being truthful to themselves or anyone else or they would not get so heated about even the mere mention of rewards, there lack thereof, or their removal.







    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So you want blizzard to police everything people say just so delicate little flowers can avoid getting their feelings hurt? That is some grade A bullshit right there. There is an ignore function, use it. Also, don't be so sensitive to what people say, thats no way to go through life.
    The ignore function isn't account wide and the list fills up way too quickly.

    Also, don't go through life saying offensive things in front of complete strangers. Someday it will bite you in the butt. I speak from experience. I was in a light infantry unit for almost three years so it's pretty hard to offend me. Don't, however, make the mistake of assuming that everyone has your experiences and is as numb to offensive statements as you are. Also, this has very little to do with hurt feelings and more to do with creating a pleasant experience so that as many people as possible will want to return again and again.

    The homeless dude can't smell his own B.O., but I guarantee that the restaurant owner will do everything in his power to keep him out so that his patrons can enjoy their meals. He's not going to tell them to suck it up and eat, is he? Why do you expect Blizzard to behave any differently?

    So you're not offended by anything. Good for you. That doesn't mean that others aren't going to take offense. I'm pretty sure that most players are intelligent enough to distinguish between offensive and non-offensive chat. If not then they need to spend less time reading raid strats and more time consulting books on etiquette. I guarantee that etiquette will help far more in RL than a raid strat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad
    Do you really have to ask why players (bad or otherwise) believe that they should have fun playing a game that they pay for? You continue to see gear as a "reward," but it's really not. It's just a carrot on a stick designed to hold players' interest. The burden is not on players to remain interested. It's on Blizzard to keep them interested. Blizzard collects their subscription fee regardless of how "good" or "bad" the player is. Ultimately it's just a game. If you want to think of gear as a personal reward, then by all means do so. You can still run your heroics for your "reward" even though you know you're going to ditch that reward about a week into WoD. Just don't expect Blizzard to share your view on that. Their primary motive is to retain subscriptions, not to stroke your ego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Why would anyone in an organized guild NEED LF"R" in its current incarnation?
    That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Let me quote the post I was responding to again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    I run flex with guildies and friends, takes 1 min to invite everyone and queue, zone in and clear in ~2 hours.
    If someone in that situation is running LFR then they are opting to do so. No one needs to run LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    There is no requirement to us a third party addon in order to put a flex group together. You are in control of the gear requirements for YOUR group that YOU put together. Take a little personal responsibility for why you cannot complete a flex.
    I have plenty of real-life responsibilities. I don't need to add a game to my TODO list. I have much higher priorities. Most players are in the same boat. The burden of finding things to do in WoW is not on me. I just unsubscribe, save a little money, and find other more fun things to do. Blizzard is the one losing out in that scenario. What is so hard to understand about that? If you want to take "responsibility" for playing a game then more power to you. I'd rather channel my energies into activities with tangible rewards.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  19. #299
    Community downfall started already from server transfers. I saw so many assholes in vanilla that became good guys once they realized that others are doing fun stuff and they cant do anything because nobody wants to group with them. Once they had incentive to try being social, many found out that the game and life in general is more fun that way and stuck with it. LFD/LFR is just enhancing the problem. You can think of similar situations in all aspects of life. Just think how easy it is to be asshole inside you car to other drivers, when you can drive away and never see them again, compared to being asshole to someone in bus or train and having to see the same guy every morning after that.

    I think Blizzard is also realizing that they can't design one game for everyone, and that they are better off getting rid of the "I'll just unsub if I need to actually play" -crowd for MMO's and design a completely different game for them. Afterall it was the hardcore elitist jerks that made WoW so big with their enthusiasm that made it viral.

    So to fix the social problems, they need to merge most of servers and then disallow server transfers, name changes, faction changes etc. Give huge incentive to use premade groups for everything like loot being superiour over LFD/LFR. This will also get rid of the bads like cutting the bad parts of the plant or tree to make it smaller but healthier overall. Then you are left with a good base that you can actually build some growth on, instead of the slow death thats going on now.

    Then Blizzard will get some reputation as a good game house back (which is needed if they want WoW 2/titans to be even close to a phenomenon that Wow was), and they can always push the bads in to getting instant gratification from diablo and HS and get their cash anyway.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    I think Blizzard is also realizing that they can't design one game for everyone, and that they are better off getting rid of the "I'll just unsub if I need to actually play" -crowd for MMO's and design a completely different game for them. Afterall it was the hardcore elitist jerks that made WoW so big with their enthusiasm that made it viral.
    No, the hardcore elitist jerks did not make WoW so big. They have always been a pimple on the game's butt, irrelevant to the play experience of the great majority of average players who have churned through it over the years.

    What made WoW big was addictive gameplay, particularly for the large number of players for whom it was their first MMO, and word of mouth between non-hardcores.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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