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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    Little off topic, but the "I paid my 15 bucks and want it all" attitude is strange and also one of the things, I think, that is cultivated by the anti-social aspect of online.
    It's very off-topic, but it frequently comes up in these threads because some people feel that it is implicitly obvious that LFR was made in response to some universal demand for raid content. Based on the lack of evidence to support this claim I sincerely believe that attitude to be, with a few exceptions, fictional. I believe that players insisting that it is real are confusing it for the more prevalent attitude that, "I paid my 15 bucks and want something to do in the game or I have no reason to remain subscribed." Since Blizzard opted to gut every form of end game that didn't directly relate to raiding in some manner the only option remaining to those players is LFR.

    The distinction is subtle, but it is a distinction nonetheless. I agree that, "I want it all," is entitled. However, "I want something in exchange for my money," is only logical. Why would anyone want to pay money for a game that gave them nothing to do?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #322
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But the question is now that they have Flexible scaling that allows drop in drop out gameplay, xrealm raiding and making a group search function, what space does LFR still hold?
    The same space it's occupied from the beginning: a guaranteed slot in a 'raid' (of sorts) not subject to the whims of a RL who demands 540 ilevel gear for an instance designed to be achievable in gear that's 20-30 ilevels lower. You are proposing that Flex does that? And see below. The point is to make raiding the only PVE end game for everyone, no matter the skill level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    It's very off-topic, but it frequently comes up in these threads because some people feel that it is implicitly obvious that LFR was made in response to some universal demand for raid content. Based on the lack of evidence to support this claim I sincerely believe that attitude to be, with a few exceptions, fictional. I believe that players insisting that it is real are confusing it for the more prevalent attitude that, "I paid my 15 bucks and want something to do in the game or I have no reason to remain subscribed." Since Blizzard opted to gut every form of end game that didn't directly relate to raiding in some manner the only option remaining to those players is LFR.
    It's an important point. Blizzard made a bet with LFR that beyond justifying the costs of raid design they could increase the long-term viability of their game by designing around raiding as a universal end game. A bet that I would have questioned to begin with and which observation over the course of an expansion would confirm to have been a loser. This is not to say that LFR should go away and that raiding should be returned to the five percent. It is to say that raiding as the only end game for all players was a bad idea.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-12-19 at 06:36 PM.
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  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If you're one of the "WoW should be hard work" crowd, other than telling you that it's a video game I don't have a lot for you. Your 'hard work' and success at the higher difficulties should be a source of self-satisfaction. What others do is really none of your business and I have no idea at all why you and others like yourself think it is.
    When you work hard at something and put your all into it, sometime it is difficult to watch other people piss and moan about how everything is too difficult even at their lower difficulty settings. It's hard to watch people want similar rewards and not have to at least try as hard as you did.

  4. #324
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    When you work hard at something and put your all into it, sometime it is difficult to watch other people piss and moan about how everything is too difficult even at their lower difficulty settings. It's hard to watch people want similar rewards and not have to at least try as hard as you did.
    Just as it's difficult to see posters whose armories show them to be competent at heroic mode raiding proud of the fact that they can AFK through Raid Finder because they need a trinket. There's plenty of bad behavior/whining on both sides. I don't approve of any of it personally.
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  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    To suggest that there is a universally accepted line that seperates "offensive" and "not offensive" is just wrong. Some people get offended at stuff that wouldn't offend 95% of people.
    Yes, but I regularly see stuff that would offend 95% of people. I honestly am waiting for the day I see a news "expose" featuring screenshots of the stuff that pops up in public chat channels daily. I've also seen people claim that content is inoffensive because 95% of people in their guild (that is, more often than not, entirely composed of young twenty-something males) don't take any offense to it. They fail to realize that their guild comprises a very small portion of the player population as a whole and that, even though they're free to say whatever they want in their own guild chat, the rest of the game should (and does) adhere to different standards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    I was in a raid going through Naxx one day and just to be flippant to a rather dumb question answered "your mamma".
    In many cultures insulting someone's mother is one of the worst possible offenses imaginable. I thought you were in the reserves. How did you get through basic training without getting your ass kicked?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Gear is the incentive for LFR. Without gear the mode would die. What I was getting at was why do LFR players have such an interest in the gear when they don't care about the game around them? Why are you so determined to earn a legendary if you don't plan on using it or more than soloing molten core?
    Not that I plan on soloing MC, but someone who did would want the cape because it would reduce the time it took for them to solo their MC runs. MC is an extreme example, however. I'm sure there are people soloing ICC or Firelands. Ironically, they're doing it for the Legendaries, even though those legendaries may be laughably bad in comparison to even MoP green gear. Sometimes it's fun to set a goal and work towards it, even if the goal is easy to accomplish. That's actually the driving principle behind most MMOs: give players easy goals to meet in a persistent virtual world. The number of people who take that to an extreme and set difficult virtual goals is much lower than what these forums lead you to believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But the question is now that they have Flexible scaling that allows drop in drop out gameplay, xrealm raiding and making a group search function, what space does LFR still hold? It seems simply like a place for those who are bad players or antisocial players, neither of which should be encouraged. Yes they will exist but enabling them is a mistake.
    It holds the space that used to be occupied by heroic 5-mans. Remember the ICC and ToC 5-mans? Those were discarded in favor of LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Flex is definitely not much more difficult than LF"R", of course none of the content is "hard" once you wrap your head around the root concepts that cause wipes.
    That's only because most people will only run with others in 540+ gear. I guarantee that if you ran Flex with 25 random players in 510 ilevel gear you would reconsider that statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    When you work hard at something and put your all into it, sometime it is difficult to watch other people piss and moan about how everything is too difficult even at their lower difficulty settings. It's hard to watch people want similar rewards and not have to at least try as hard as you did.
    When you "work hard" and "put your all" into a game it's hard to sympathize with the notion that everyone else should have to "work" as hard as you did at screwing around in a game in order to get something out of it. I guarantee that the sooner you step back and put in-game activities into perspective the happier you'll be in the long run.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    What I don't get is why would people keep playing a game that they suck royal ass at?
    They is no reason they should. And, more to the point, they often don't.

    Which leads the developers of said game to change the game. And then the Snowflake Brigade complains about "dumbing down".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The issue would be how you get the gear to move into normal/heroic raiding from LFR. Not only that if players do LFR and think ok so I can do this other mode and get better gear cool. How do I do that? Oh I need to join a raiding guild and set aside x amount of time each week and I have to bid on gear etc etc. You see where I am going with this. For me it has never been a problem but I can see why players may (new players) see the road to raiding as a bit daunting.

    Flex has proven popular and I think is not really much more difficult than LFR from the wings ive completed so far. I am all for them trying to get players into other raid modes but I think removing gear is not an option. Have the gear as a watered down version and have the other modes have more gear items (so say 15 extra items in normal and 25 in heroic and extra 10 in mythic for example along with mounts etc). LFR is an easy and effective way to get gear catchups for later tiers for new and returning players and removing gear also hurts that (and filthy alts!).

    I've suggested it before, make proving grounds a factor in your raid progression. Have it so for LFR you require item level at "x" amount along with a bronze achievement in proving grounds for your chosen spec. Bronze proving grounds are very easy and can be used as a way to teach new players about things to expect in the raid.
    Well having 4 modes isn't helping that transition be easier. If we didn't have a ton of different modes people wouldn't need to hear through LFR to gear through Flex to get into normal do they could do heroic. ToT is barely a viable gearing path right now, which is a shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yes, but I regularly see stuff that would offend 95% of people. I honestly am waiting for the day I see a news "expose" featuring screenshots of the stuff that pops up in public chat channels daily. I've also seen people claim that content is inoffensive because 95% of people in their guild (that is, more often than not, entirely composed of young twenty-something males) don't take any offense to it. They fail to realize that their guild comprises a very small portion of the player population as a whole and that, even though they're free to say whatever they want in their own guild chat, the rest of the game should (and does) adhere to different standards.

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    In many cultures insulting someone's mother is one of the worst possible offenses imaginable. I thought you were in the reserves. How did you get through basic training without getting your ass kicked?

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    Not that I plan on soloing MC, but someone who did would want the cape because it would reduce the time it took for them to solo their MC runs. MC is an extreme example, however. I'm sure there are people soloing ICC or Firelands. Ironically, they're doing it for the Legendaries, even though those legendaries may be laughably bad in comparison to even MoP green gear. Sometimes it's fun to set a goal and work towards it, even if the goal is easy to accomplish. That's actually the driving principle behind most MMOs: give players easy goals to meet in a persistent virtual world. The number of people who take that to an extreme and set difficult virtual goals is much lower than what these forums lead you to believe.

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    It holds the space that used to be occupied by heroic 5-mans. Remember the ICC and ToC 5-mans? Those were discarded in favor of LFR.

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    That's only because most people will only run with others in 540+ gear. I guarantee that if you ran Flex with 25 random players in 510 ilevel gear you would reconsider that statement.

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    When you "work hard" and "put your all" into a game it's hard to sympathize with the notion that everyone else should have to "work" as hard as you did at screwing around in a game in order to get something out of it. I guarantee that the sooner you step back and put in-game activities into perspective the happier you'll be in the long run.
    It was created in response to the drop in usage of Cata raids because the increase in difficulty. When it was created they released HoT heroics to act as a gear catchup to get into Dragon Soul. SINCE THEN Blizzard has been coasting on LFR as justification to develop less content and simply focus on one thing.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Well having 4 modes isn't helping that transition be easier. If we didn't have a ton of different modes people wouldn't need to hear through LFR to gear through Flex to get into normal do they could do heroic. ToT is barely a viable gearing path right now, which is a shame.
    And that's why they're scaling it back to three modes in WoD. Instead of easy, normal, hard, and super-hard they're just going to have easy, normal, and super-hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    When you "work hard" and "put your all" into a game it's hard to sympathize with the notion that everyone else should have to "work" as hard as you did at screwing around in a game in order to get something out of it. I guarantee that the sooner you step back and put in-game activities into perspective the happier you'll be in the long run.
    I put my all into everything I choose to do. I find it insulting that others do not. Why do something if your not even going to try your best? How would me being less good at the game then I can be make me any happier? Didn't know slothing your way through something makes you happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    then the Snowflake Brigade complains about "dumbing down".
    AKA the people who can handle basic mechanics and have eyeballs.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    It was created in response to the drop in usage of Cata raids because the increase in difficulty. When it was created they released HoT heroics to act as a gear catchup to get into Dragon Soul. SINCE THEN Blizzard has been coasting on LFR as justification to develop less content and simply focus on one thing.
    They had to back-pedal like crazy in that way because they had pedalled so far out there. At release raids dropped 359 and heroics dropped 346. Next raid patch raids were dropping 378 while heroics were still dropping 353 (still 6 points below the previous tier and 25 points behind current tier). In an effort to plug the subscription leak they put out LFR and required a 372 ilevel for it. This is purely speculative, but I'm pretty sure that they had already decided to make LFR into the primary method for casuals to obtain gear in the end game by then. However, at the time they introduced LFR they still needed an interim level of content to boost 353 players to a 372, and that's where the HoT heroics came in. In MoP they threw out heroics as a means of gearing altogether, and that's why we have what we have. From recent statements, however, it seems like it finally dawned on them that LFR wasn't a great way to spend the months between patches/expansions.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And that's why they're scaling it back to three modes in WoD. Instead of easy, normal, hard, and super-hard they're just going to have easy, normal, and super-hard.
    There is still 4 modes. LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Why do something if your not even going to try your best? How would me being less good at the game then I can be make me any happier? Didn't know slothing your way through something makes you happy.
    So by this logic after you've watched a TV show you can recite everyone's lines by heart, correct? When listening to music you listen for all the tracks and replay each of them on various instruments later, right? If you go clubbing it's not enough to sway with the crowd; if you're not on Travolta's level then you shouldn't even bother hitting the clubs. Some people take entertainment more seriously than others, and that's OK. What's not OK (or even reasonable) is to expect everyone else to take their entertainment as seriously as you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    There is still 4 modes. LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic.
    I stand corrected. So I guess it's easy, normal, hard 10-man, and super-hard 25-man.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I stand corrected. So I guess it's easy, normal, hard 10-man, and super-hard 25-man.
    well, easy 25 man queue, normal flex 10-25, hard flex 10-25, and super hard 20-man

  14. #334
    I smile everytime I go into LFR - it's so hilarious watching people argue over the most stupid topics.

    - Rift

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    So by this logic after you've watched a TV show you can recite everyone's lines by heart, correct? When listening to music you listen for all the tracks and replay each of them on various instruments later, right? If you go clubbing it's not enough to sway with the crowd; if you're not on Travolta's level then you shouldn't even bother hitting the clubs. Some people take entertainment more seriously than others, and that's OK. What's not OK (or even reasonable) is to expect everyone else to take their entertainment as seriously as you do.
    TV and music are different. They require no input from the consumer, therefore there is no measurement of comparison. Dancing on the other hand: Yes I suck ass at dancing, therefore I choose not to partake in it. If i did decide to do it, I would put my all into it and really learn how. I retain my right to make fun of dumbasses that choose to publicly do things that they suck royal ass at. If you do something that others can witness and you are not good at it you should expect some amount of ridicule.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I retain my right to make fun of dumbasses that choose to publicly do things that they suck royal ass at. If you do something that others can witness and you are not good at it you should expect some amount of ridicule.
    I guarantee that 99% of those "dumbasses" are meeting many more members of the opposite sex than you are. Ridicule all you want, but your fear of ridicule is your problem. I know because my attitude was similar to yours in high school. Fear of looking "stupid" is a stupid reason to deprive yourself of fun. A secure, confident person isn't afraid to face a little ridicule. What's more, they don't have to ridicule others just to feel better about themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And that's why they're scaling it back to three modes in WoD. Instead of easy, normal, hard, and super-hard they're just going to have easy, normal, and super-hard.
    You're wrong

    They have 4 modes still

    LFR (flexible scaling 10-25)
    Normal (flexible scaling 10-25)
    Heroic (flexible scaling 10-25)
    Mythic (20)

    So again, each mode just means more inflation and a longer gear grind. Now I normally wouldn't mind gear being harder to get, but running the same instance on 4 difficulties is not enjoyable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I guarantee that 99% of those "dumbasses" are meeting many more members of the opposite sex than you are. Ridicule all you want, but your fear of ridicule is your problem. I know because my attitude was similar to yours in high school. Fear of looking "stupid" is a stupid reason to deprive yourself of fun. A secure, confident person isn't afraid to face a little ridicule. What's more, they don't have to ridicule others just to feel better about themselves.
    So you've gone to the "they have a life, so its okay their terribad" excuse? lol you're desperate. See if you are being a dumbass somewhere, you are still a dumbass. You aren't a resounding success in real life if you lack the skill to comprehend dont stand in fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I stand corrected. So I guess it's easy, normal, hard 10-man, and super-hard 25-man.
    You clearly have no idea about the current raiding scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    They had to back-pedal like crazy in that way because they had pedalled so far out there. At release raids dropped 359 and heroics dropped 346. Next raid patch raids were dropping 378 while heroics were still dropping 353 (still 6 points below the previous tier and 25 points behind current tier). In an effort to plug the subscription leak they put out LFR and required a 372 ilevel for it. This is purely speculative, but I'm pretty sure that they had already decided to make LFR into the primary method for casuals to obtain gear in the end game by then. However, at the time they introduced LFR they still needed an interim level of content to boost 353 players to a 372, and that's where the HoT heroics came in. In MoP they threw out heroics as a means of gearing altogether, and that's why we have what we have. From recent statements, however, it seems like it finally dawned on them that LFR wasn't a great way to spend the months between patches/expansions.
    Here's the thing, the heroics in 4.1 helped people get further into the 4.0 raids, so they could be ready for 4.2 With 4.2 there also came some 363(?) crafted and bought pieces to further help. Don't forget Fireland trash runs. They had a good model at that point, and the heroics in 4.3 were 378 pieces for a raid balanced around 378 entry gear, that was quite easy in the first place.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I guarantee that 99% of those "dumbasses" are meeting many more members of the opposite sex than you are. Ridicule all you want, but your fear of ridicule is your problem. I know because my attitude was similar to yours in high school. Fear of looking "stupid" is a stupid reason to deprive yourself of fun. A secure, confident person isn't afraid to face a little ridicule. What's more, they don't have to ridicule others just to feel better about themselves.
    Ha. And yet you just ridiculed me for being "anti-social". In one statement you denounced ridicule and ridiculed. You're AWESOME.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    So you've gone to the "they have a life, so its okay their terribad" excuse? lol you're desperate. See if you are being a dumbass somewhere, you are still a dumbass. You aren't a resounding success in real life if you lack the skill to comprehend dont stand in fire.
    Someone making 250K a year with a beautiful wife, well-behaved children, two cars, and a nice house is a resounding success even if they wipe your raid the next time they queue for LFR. But who am I to judge if you prefer your T15 heroic warforged gear? I think that calling someone a "dumbass" just for underperforming in a game is a bit extreme, don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I put my all into everything I choose to do. I find it insulting that others do not. Why do something if your not even going to try your best? How would me being less good at the game then I can be make me any happier? Didn't know slothing your way through something makes you happy.

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    AKA the people who can handle basic mechanics and have eyeballs.
    Did you put your all into the grammar of that post? Or did you insult yourself by making mistakes? Or were you forced into doing it at gun point?

    No offense meant, just being flippant.

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