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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    The lack of entry requirements for LFR is bypassing the worst part of the raiding community in other formats, the ego factor.
    Quoted for truth. To be honest my view on people who complain about LFR being too tedious due to other player low gear/experience/skill etc.. are actually quite low themselves. Here's my reasoning behind that opinion.

    LFR is designated to be the most easy difficulty to offer an introduction how the late game content looks like,what's obtainable from it and what's the most important part - how it's like to try and work in a team with large group of people to achieve the same goal.

    And that's exactly the point where a lot of people stumble. Because, let's be honest,practically every single player joining the LFR queue does it for his own personal goals. Therefore no matter what the goal is on a failure they feel that the other 24 random people are holding him down or bashing him for trying to achieve that. And what you get in the end isn't a team of 25 working together to achieve victory but 25 individuals chasing each their own personal goal/benefit.

    Furthermore most complainers usually have gear or experience that exceeds the minimum necessary to join LFR usually even by a huge margin. Therefore their individual performance is a lot higher that the average bunch. It's pretty natural to feel dragged down if you perform together with people that make mistakes on things that you consider common sense. However it isn't. As surprising it may be to hear it's not common sense to evade squiggly purple lines on the floor when Malkorok does his bash. It's common knowledge. And the difference between those is that you actually have to KNOW what's happening to act accordingly.

    Which is often forgotten by those who have plenty of experience behind their belt. And here's the part why I think complainers are bad. Because they by no way try to improve the performance of the team. They do not explain the tactics (or where,who and why did wrong) in a sensible way but instead insult other people. They think that the simple fact of them attending the boss fight is all that's required from them. And what I want to say by that is....

    If you are not ready to raid in LFR with a group that most likely doesn't know what they are doing and can't be arsed to say more than "STFU Noob Tank/DPS/Healer" and simply don't have the balls to take up leadership of the group and share your experience then keep silent yourself and let other people do their best.

    Because honestly if you complain LFR being so much worse than the alternatives then why you just don't use those? That's what they are made for.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The point isnt that the dungeon journal = perfection. The point is that you should go into a Siegecrafter fight knowing that the bombs move towards you and not to touch them.
    If the person on the conveyor belt is doing their job then no bombs should get through. All you should really have to know is not to run the red beam through the raid, to get out of those sawblades he flings at random people, and to not stand between the sawblades and magnet when the time to let a magnet through comes. Unfortunately it never goes down that way. The raid doesn't stack, so sawblades go everywhere. Someone runs the red beam all through the raid, making sure to weave back and forth a couple of times for max coverage. Most players remain parked when the drills come up out of the ground, and some even follow them around just to make sure they can soak up extra damage. The bombs keep coming and no one bothers to acknowledge them. But do you know what? I find it absolutely hilarious, and it provides me with far more of a healing challenge than any organized flex run. So what if I'm usually doing 40-60% of the healing? So what if all these other so-called "dumbasses" have a shot at the same loot that I will probably vendor anyway? It's all in good fun, just like a game should be. When I want to participate in a serious raid run I do so with my guild. When I want to queue for the lolz and help others faceroll their way to "victory" I do that too. There's a little something for everybody, and that's the way it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    You should go into a Nazgarim fight knowing to not attack in defensive stance.
    I know. The tank shouts it over raid chat until his fingers bleed but there's always someone who just can't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    You should go into a Immerseus fight knowing what you do with the blobs.
    Well, sometimes you queued with the intent to read up before hand but the queue pops unexpectedly early and you barely manage to zone in seconds before the tank pulls. At that point you just go with the flow. Killing the black slimes and staying out of the goo on the ground is relatively intuitive. Healing the blue slimes is not. Ideally the game would have some kind of indicator to clue players into the fact that healing the blue slimes is good, but the game is far from ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    These are the problems with the LFR playerbase.
    And that's where we disagree. Expecting players to do "homework" before playing the game is just bad/lazy game design. That's not a player failure. That's a Blizzard failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    If you aren't ready to peel from the boss immediately or forget to not refresh DoTs on Nazgarim during defensive thats one thing. If you are there tunneling him because you have no idea what you're doing then you are a problem. Unfortunately LFR had many problem players.
    Not really. Blizzard is the problem because they don't sufficiently penalize individual players in an obvious manner for tunnelling Nazgrim. Instead everyone else pays for that player's failure in a manner that is not even intuitively connected to said failure. A better design for LFR would cause the player to get a stacking debuff that lowers their damage and ultimately stuns the player for thirty seconds every time the player hits him. Instead one guy beats on him and everyone else has to deal with the axes later. That's not not a "dumbass player" problem. That's a "dumbass designer" problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    Quoted for truth. To be honest my view on people who complain about LFR being too tedious due to other player low gear/experience/skill etc.. are actually quite low themselves. Here's my reasoning behind that opinion.

    LFR is designated to be the most easy difficulty to offer an introduction how the late game content looks like,what's obtainable from it and what's the most important part - how it's like to try and work in a team with large group of people to achieve the same goal.

    And that's exactly the point where a lot of people stumble. Because, let's be honest,practically every single player joining the LFR queue does it for his own personal goals. Therefore no matter what the goal is on a failure they feel that the other 24 random people are holding him down or bashing him for trying to achieve that. And what you get in the end isn't a team of 25 working together to achieve victory but 25 individuals chasing each their own personal goal/benefit.

    Furthermore most complainers usually have gear or experience that exceeds the minimum necessary to join LFR usually even by a huge margin. Therefore their individual performance is a lot higher that the average bunch. It's pretty natural to feel dragged down if you perform together with people that make mistakes on things that you consider common sense. However it isn't. As surprising it may be to hear it's not common sense to evade squiggly purple lines on the floor when Malkorok does his bash. It's common knowledge. And the difference between those is that you actually have to KNOW what's happening to act accordingly.

    Which is often forgotten by those who have plenty of experience behind their belt. And here's the part why I think complainers are bad. Because they by no way try to improve the performance of the team. They do not explain the tactics (or where,who and why did wrong) in a sensible way but instead insult other people. They think that the simple fact of them attending the boss fight is all that's required from them. And what I want to say by that is....

    If you are not ready to raid in LFR with a group that most likely doesn't know what they are doing and can't be arsed to say more than "STFU Noob Tank/DPS/Healer" and simply don't have the balls to take up leadership of the group and share your experience then keep silent yourself and let other people do their best.

    Because honestly if you complain LFR being so much worse than the alternatives then why you just don't use those? That's what they are made for.
    how it's like to try and work in a team with large group of people to achieve the same goal I remember a blue saying something like "Flex still feels like raiding" which would imply LFR doesn't even in Blizzards view. And it most definitely doesn't feel like raiding.

    complainers usually have gear or experience that exceeds the minimum necessary to join LFR usually even by a huge margin. Therefore their individual performance is a lot higher that the average bunch. its one thing when somebody brags about pulling 95k dps when they were in 496 gear. its another to say that 60k dps is not even close to acceptable for 496 (Siege minimum)

    they by no way try to improve the performance of the team because people will listen? Most have instance chat ignored or if you whisper them respond angrily. They don't want to get better, because those who do want to get better have already bothered to learn to play.

    take up leadership of the group and share your experience then keep silent yourself and let other people do their best.
    and get called a controlling elitist and kicked or just flat out ignored? They're not going to try, you can't make them try, the group is accepting that they won't try because many other members are not trying. If there was some way to actually let experience players LEAD a LFR group that would be one thing, but hiding chat or simply ignoring people is a problem. Unless they let those with AoTC or something queue as a leader and have control over pulls, groups and the authority to kick, the bads will protect the bads from the mean elitists who expect them to carry their weight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    If the person on the conveyor belt is doing their job then no bombs should get through. All you should really have to know is not to run the red beam through the raid, to get out of those sawblades he flings at random people, and to not stand between the sawblades and magnet when the time to let a magnet through comes. Unfortunately it never goes down that way. The raid doesn't stack, so sawblades go everywhere. Someone runs the red beam all through the raid, making sure to weave back and forth a couple of times for max coverage. Most players remain parked when the drills come up out of the ground, and some even follow them around just to make sure they can soak up extra damage. The bombs keep coming and no one bothers to acknowledge them. But do you know what? I find it absolutely hilarious, and it provides me with far more of a healing challenge than any organized flex run. So what if I'm usually doing 40-60% of the healing? So what if all these other so-called "dumbasses" have a shot at the same loot that I will probably vendor anyway? It's all in good fun, just like a game should be. When I want to participate in a serious raid run I do so with my guild. When I want to queue for the lolz and help others faceroll their way to "victory" I do that too. There's a little something for everybody, and that's the way it should be.


    I know. The tank shouts it over raid chat until his fingers bleed but there's always someone who just can't read.


    Well, sometimes you queued with the intent to read up before hand but the queue pops unexpectedly early and you barely manage to zone in seconds before the tank pulls. At that point you just go with the flow. Killing the black slimes and staying out of the goo on the ground is relatively intuitive. Healing the blue slimes is not. Ideally the game would have some kind of indicator to clue players into the fact that healing the blue slimes is good, but the game is far from ideal.


    And that's where we disagree. Expecting players to do "homework" before playing the game is just bad/lazy game design. That's not a player failure. That's a Blizzard failure.


    Not really. Blizzard is the problem because they don't sufficiently penalize individual players in an obvious manner for tunnelling Nazgrim. Instead everyone else pays for that player's failure in a manner that is not even intuitively connected to said failure. A better design for LFR would cause the player to get a stacking debuff that lowers their damage and ultimately stuns the player for thirty seconds every time the player hits him. Instead one guy beats on him and everyone else has to deal with the axes later. That's not not a "dumbass player" problem. That's a "dumbass designer" problem.
    You don't have to do homework. You could learn as you go. but find a group WILLING to learn with you. LFR is not a learning area because the Determination buff means that you will end up just tunneling through everything eventually.

    Why give the player a debuff? Ive been in groups where we decided to put some high, like 220k+ dps on him the entire time. It is the player base who needs to decide what to do, not make Blizzard force a 1-way only raid encounter. I know on Malkorok I rarely stack with the group unless Blood Fury is up, because I know where the safe zones are on my own. Don't make it so that there is only 1 space to stand, let players move how they wish, but at the same time need to stack sometimes.

    You do have a way to tell players healing the blue slimes is good. its called the dungeon journal. Dont queue until you read the fights.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Oh god the irony haha. LFR was introduced because whiny bads were upset there was content not for them. They had content for them and the raiders had content, but these players insisted on more. 4.1 players could have spent their time enjoying the dungeons as raiders did raids, but oh no, there better not be content for somebody else!
    Not really because those dungeons were even harder than LFR despite dropping loot that was not even as good as the crap you bought through rep farming. The only players enjoying those dungeons were raiders, and that's because they could outgear them through their raid drops. The progression path was rep farm -> raid -> dungeons. Those dungeons were only good for achievements because if you wanted actual gear you were going to have to raid for it. This design was brought about because raiders were crying that casual players were getting epic gear and hoarding gold by facerolling heroics while raiders were going broke paying for repairs, buying gems, and buying enchantments. No one was crying for LFR. They were simply leaving the game because it just wasn't fun anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    I am playing a healer and I remember getting insta pops at the beginning of MoP. It seems these days everyone rolled a healer, since I can wait up to an hour for SoO lfr before giving up.
    This morning I participated in four LFR raids in three hours as DPS starting at 5 am. I zoned into Dark Shamans the first time and one-shotted both bosses. Next raid we one-shotted everything from Jin'Rokh on. Next raid I did Tortos through Ji-Kun, all one-shots. Finally I did Durumu and logged out because I had to get ready for work. Some people were confused, some people pulled extra stuff, and players were reluctant to volunteer for nest duty, but other than that, everything went fairly smoothly. All in all the three hours didn't feel wasted. These reports about multi-hour waits for SoO LFR seem like exaggerations to me.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-19 at 10:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Blizzard will have their own version of Oqueue in WoD, so that argument goes out the window more than likely.(what they added is just a tiny bandaid, not indicative of what they are going to make).

    They've also strongly hinted its rewards will be nerfed. Recently GC tweeted that LFR should be for seeing content and "some gear". They don't like that everyone is forced into LFR for end game progression, even though most probably don't care for the style of play raiding is.
    That's assuming if Blizzard can pull it off and making a feature that does what oQueue does. Seeing how Blizzard isn't really great at bringing things into the game that addons have allowed in the past, highly doubt the Group System will be as good as oQueue. Hopefully it will be good enough though. Also I think LFR should be there for people to gear up their alts to do flex/pugs and not for end game raiding. I think the problem is now is people want to do normal pugs, but it's quite impossible. I want it to be like it was back in WotLK or TBC, where you could go into the newest raid on normal and knock out the first bosses, like ICC, the first 4 bosses. Full ToC, few bosses in Ulduar, even whole naxx was pug-able. And lots of bosses in TBC were also. But now you don't see those normal pug runs, they used to be fun, getting decent items for alts or if you missed out on your guild raid. Now all the bosses have too many tactics so majority of players can't even attempt them cause they're too complicated.

    Anyways OT. I think they're fixing LFR at least a little bit. I saw at the panel at Blizzcon it said "LFR (10 - 25 Player)" which I'm assuming will be 10-25 depending on how many people are queueing perhaps? Maybe the system will try and make the most fitting group for LFR when you queue, weather it will be 10, 25 or somewhere in between. I at least hope so.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Queue times up, completion rates down. Yes LFR is really doing great! remember because everybody uses it that means everybody loves it!
    I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well. Yes, the tank/healer/dps ratios are still screwed up, but that problem is only magnified when more people queue. Longer queue times don't necessarily imply that LFR is doing worse. Like I just said in another post, I was able to farm about 400 valor from LFR as DPS in less than three hours today.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Yea the guy without gems and enchants half afk in the corner is a heroic raider...
    No, raiders carry the groups. Raiders are those healers and dps doing twice what the next highest one is doing. Raiders are the ones who actually handle mechanics. Expecting you to contribute to the group and not slack off is not a douchebag move, but slacking off is.

    There is plenty of evidence, on these very forums, that contradicts your assertion. Every week I read dozens of posts, from players who claim that they are "real raiders", commenting on how worthless and horrible LFR is, while at the same time bragging about how they queue for LFR and then go AFK.

    Here's a random example from this thread about the legendary cloak :
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I afk'd in LFRs before my normal/heroic raids to get the quest items. It is a welfare item PER DEFINITION and there's nothing wrong calling it that.
    I like the cape as a reward, I like the idea of the cape being from a long, long quest line. In fact, I love it! And I hope Blizzard has more of those ideas. But I still consider it a welfare legendary.

    These posts by Vargas and MoanaLisa are right on the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    I only ever see normal/heroic raiders causing problems, not LFR users. The former always seems to be the guys who pull when the group isn't all present, who ignore mechanics and strats because "lol its LFR" and then blame everyone but themselves when the group wipes.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for people AFKing through it, those people--many of whom are quick to call others lazy without a shred of self-awareness--are more the problem than the design ever will be.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well.
    That's a bad analogy. A theme park queue is due to finite capacity. LFR queues are due to lack of one of the roles making the other roles wait.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Maggibesti View Post
    Seeing how Blizzard isn't really great at bringing things into the game that addons have allowed in the past, highly doubt the Group System will be as good as oQueue.
    Really? When was the last time you used that equipment manager addon? I can't even remember its name. How about Atlas Loot? Granted, there are some features that Blizzard didn't pull off as well as addons (I'm specifically referring to the AH UI). For the most part, however, Blizzard does a pretty good job of replacing addons when they're actually serious about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I remember a blue saying something like "Flex still feels like raiding" which would imply LFR doesn't even in Blizzards view. And it most definitely doesn't feel like raiding.

    its one thing when somebody brags about pulling 95k dps when they were in 496 gear. its another to say that 60k dps is not even close to acceptable for 496 (Siege minimum)

    because people will listen? Most have instance chat ignored or if you whisper them respond angrily. They don't want to get better, because those who do want to get better have already bothered to learn to play.

    and get called a controlling elitist and kicked or just flat out ignored? They're not going to try, you can't make them try, the group is accepting that they won't try because many other members are not trying. If there was some way to actually let experience players LEAD a LFR group that would be one thing, but hiding chat or simply ignoring people is a problem. Unless they let those with AoTC or something queue as a leader and have control over pulls, groups and the authority to kick, the bads will protect the bads from the mean elitists who expect them to carry their weight.
    While LFR isn't the same thing as they say "actual" raiding for 25 mans.(Which I agree to. It isn't.) It still is a group activity by,usually, 25 people trying to achieve the same goal and I don't see how saying "LFR isn't like raiding at all" actually has any meaning that would be relevant to my statement.

    Bragging about performing better than others is indeed different than insulting others about not performing as good as they could. However once again I can not understand what are you trying to say by stating that. Because it's clear that as persons experience grows so does their performance and if it's lacking it's possible to perform worse than you could if you knew how.

    Sour taste sure lingers. It might come as surprise but people actually do listen if you offer a comment or advice in a sensible and non-offensive way. You are looking at the problem as if there are only one way of leading a raid which would be an elitist taking control of others like dumb sheep. But it's not like that. Most people playing WoW aren't stupid(There are always exceptions), and such simple things as placing the markers for people can improve the performance of a group by a lot.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well. Yes, the tank/healer/dps ratios are still screwed up, but that problem is only magnified when more people queue. Longer queue times don't necessarily imply that LFR is doing worse. Like I just said in another post, I was able to farm about 400 valor from LFR as DPS in less than three hours today.
    But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs
    And it's even faster if you speed run Scenarios. But Valor isn't the only thing obtainable from LFR.

  13. #373
    The major problem I have as it currently stands is my queues are always averaged over an hour for LFR sometimes 80 min wait sometimes 40 mins. The only time its shorter if it happens to be a last boss. So LFR is becoming impossible for someone with a shorter time to raid. i.e. a casual. So instead I try and jump on flex but you run into the good ol gearscore/ilvl issue. I am often in queues for 40ish mins only to get pulled in for a last attempt at the boss where I am one of the last people alive and have dps equivalent to the same class and role, 20 ilvls higher than me. I really enjoy flex raiding but the community for competent casuals is basically non existant.
    The only time I can remember something akin to LFR working was back when ToC when groups used to carry people to auction off pieces of loot. So incentive could be there for people to go back and help out LFR but the game would have to track not only ilvl and role but also some how their actual input and then reward it with higher levels of gold or something.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs
    indeed.. HC scenario gives 100 valor each (with the timed bonus ofc) and not counting the first(wich give even more) and each hc scenario take at max 15 min

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    And it's even faster if you speed run Scenarios. But Valor isn't the only thing obtainable from LFR.
    then why use it as an example "LFR is so good i got 400 valor in 3hrs"

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  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    What I don't get is why would people keep playing a game that they suck royal ass at? Even if a game showers me with rewards, if I am shitty at it (compared to other players) and I cannot improve, I don't continue to play it. The ability of people to accept mediocrity just stuns the shit out of me.
    Really? Your definition of the only reason people play games is because they're competent at them? Fun never enters into it?

    Some people play with friends or family. Does that mean they should stop if they don't meet your criteria for competence?

    Some people do little except raise alts in different ways. They find that fun. Is that terribly difficult? No. Would they suck at raiding? They very well might. Does that mean they should leave?

    Should they go into Raid Finder? Sure, if they want. That's who it's for. I'll give you they should actually...you know..try while they're in there. That right there makes them better than the AFK brigade many of whom seem to feel they're too good to bother actually pressing buttons while they're in there.

    Your inability to see beyond your limited view of why people play is pretty stunning in itself.
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  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Loin View Post
    The major problem I have as it currently stands is my queues are always averaged over an hour for LFR sometimes 80 min wait sometimes 40 mins. The only time its shorter if it happens to be a last boss. So LFR is becoming impossible for someone with a shorter time to raid. i.e. a casual. So instead I try and jump on flex but you run into the good ol gearscore/ilvl issue. I am often in queues for 40ish mins only to get pulled in for a last attempt at the boss where I am one of the last people alive and have dps equivalent to the same class and role, 20 ilvls higher than me. I really enjoy flex raiding but the community for competent casuals is basically non existant.
    The only time I can remember something akin to LFR working was back when ToC when groups used to carry people to auction off pieces of loot. So incentive could be there for people to go back and help out LFR but the game would have to track not only ilvl and role but also some how their actual input and then reward it with higher levels of gold or something.
    I think the reason for that isn't LFR itself but the lack of appeal of taking up tanking/healer class. Because to be honest they are the ones usually you have to wait for. Which is why I'm looking forward to WoD tank DPS changes because it is discouraging to play a tank when outside taking damage in raids mostly what you can do is hit like a wet noodle.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs
    No, because I don't regularly get up at 5 am, and very few guilds (none?) are running HCs at that hour. 400 valor in three hours is still faster than no valor in three hours.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    And it's even faster if you speed run Scenarios. But Valor isn't the only thing obtainable from LFR.
    Exactly. I was actually in it for the Secrets of the Empire, but the valor was a nice bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And that's where we disagree. Expecting players to do "homework" before playing the game is just bad/lazy game design. That's not a player failure. That's a Blizzard failure.
    Yeah. That is just not the way I play the game. That is not how a supposedly immersive game is played, either.

    At low to moderate levels of tuning, the game should be playable -- successfully -- without anyone expecting or needing help from outside resources. If heroic content can't realistically be cleared without out-of-game effort, that's fine. That's a different game than plain old World of Warcraft.

    WoW mostly succeeds at that, but it fails in some ways. The player base fails too, in not understanding this basic premise of the game.

  19. #379
    The Lightbringer Paula Deen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    To be honest my view on people who complain about LFR being too tedious due to other player low gear/experience/skill etc.. are actually quite low themselves. Here's my reasoning behind that opinion.
    My armory says hello, as well as a lot of other players. The problem with LFR is not that at all, its the lack of accountability. I am fine if you pull 50k and still do mechanics its the people that STILL die to Durumu Beam and wipe groups on trash in Seige that need to be held accountable, another really good way they could fix LFR is offer incentive for ME and my friends to go through and teach and be helpful with the others who see LFR as a casual raiding environment. I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore. Its incredibly painful and LFR is awful because of the accountability, not because of Gearscore and Ego, give higher geared players an incentive to go, other than the crappy loot bag, and have some kind of accountability for actions in LFR.



    Side note: the creation of LFR was so casual players could see the content, there are some players that really have no place to even make it into LFR, its not mean, its not awful, its not rude, some people just do not have what it takes to do basic mechanics and those people can hurt the experience, not to mention the argument I hear ALOT is "I don't have time to raid 2 hours a night with a guild so I do LFR".... bad news LFR queues for DPS are almost 40 minutes on almost all wings of every LFR in Pandaria and once you get in prepare for another 2 hours of wiping. This stuff isn't mean, its a wake up call.

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well. Yes, the tank/healer/dps ratios are still screwed up, but that problem is only magnified when more people queue. Longer queue times don't necessarily imply that LFR is doing worse. Like I just said in another post, I was able to farm about 400 valor from LFR as DPS in less than three hours today.
    I agree with 98% of what you are saying, but instance queue times in WoW don't reflect the "length" of a queue. They only reflect the availability of people to fill required roles, and the time that each of those roles spends in the instance.

    Anyway if you have time to play LFR back to back, you can queue for a whole bunch and, like you said, have instant pops after you are done with the first one. That is not how queues actually work but Blizzard does people who are queued for multiple instances a FAVOR by moving them to the head of the line. You are actually delaying someone else in your role when you accept the instant pop when you finish an instance.

    If you have relevant programming experience, it's interesting to think about how Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is implemented. It's really not "get in line and wait" at all. Not by a long shot.

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