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  1. #381
    Brewmaster zozobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    I think the reason for that isn't LFR itself but the lack of appeal of taking up tanking/healer class. Because to be honest they are the ones usually you have to wait for. Which is why I'm looking forward to WoD tank DPS changes because it is discouraging to play a tank when outside taking damage in raids mostly what you can do is hit like a wet noodle.

    I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.
    Last edited by zozobra; 2013-12-19 at 10:53 PM.
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  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I stand corrected. So I guess it's easy, normal, hard 10-man, and super-hard 25-man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    You clearly have no idea about the current raiding scene.
    I believe I was referring to the future raiding scene. I don't take it too seriously because nothing they ever say that far in advance is set in stone and more often than not they change it beyond recognition by the time it hits. I still remember in late Wrath when Blizzard was saying that ideally every class should feel like they're OP and then Cataclysm hit and I felt decidedly underpowered. But I digress. I screwed up the super-hard 25-man. Evidently it's:

    Easy 10-man
    Normal 10-man
    Hard 10-man
    Super-hard 20-man

    If they actually bring back challenging heroics like they claim they are going to I doubt I will do any of those modes anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore.
    Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zozobra View Post
    In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less interesting because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector.
    Frankly, if you want to demonstrate calmness, experience, and leadership skills, there really is NO BETTER place to do it than as a tank in LFR. A good tank is just about the only one person who can really have a major effect on how LFR goes for 24 other people.

  4. #384
    Brewmaster zozobra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Frankly, if you want to demonstrate calmness, experience, and leadership skills, there really is NO BETTER place to do it than as a tank in LFR. A good tank is just about the only one person who can really have a major effect on how LFR goes for 24 other people.
    I completely agree, but the current damage-based design of tanking just isn't fun for me.
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  5. #385
    Warchief NuLogic's Avatar
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    In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.

    There really isn't much you can do about toxicity of players as long as it remains that hugely anonymous. Maybe a system that keeps track of you doing the correct mechanics for that instance? Would be rather difficult to do right though. Lfr will probably remain in bad shape for quite a while so it's best to just avoid it when possible.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    If you have relevant programming experience, it's interesting to think about how Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is implemented. It's really not "get in line and wait" at all. Not by a long shot.
    A queue is a queue. I don't know exactly how they implemented the LFR system, but as far as I can tell it goes something like this:

    There are three separate lines: one for tanks, one for DPS, and one for heals. As soon as a raid spot for the appropriate role opens up in an existing instance, the player in front is pulled. If a group happens to fill up and an instance is available the group gets to go.

    When you queue for multiples your place in line is held. If you happen to advance to the head of the line while you're doing your other raid you will simply cut straight to the front when you're done. Otherwise you're back in your old spot. The reason you can't tell why the queues are long is that there are several possible scenarios:

    1. Too many instances are running so you have to wait until one opens up.
    2. As tanks and heals leave other instances the ones queued up to run in your instance are getting redirected to those instead.
    3. There simply aren't enough tanks and/or heals running LFR to get even a single group together.

    Everyone seems to assume #3, but there's no way of knowing if that's really the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #387
    The Lightbringer Paula Deen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.
    This is a joke right? Tell me how that it is rude, hostile, and a "social-no-no," to help people when they are having trouble...... You know what... no don't, quite frankly I am disgusted that its considered a bad thing to try and be polite and make conversation in an MMO, really.

    This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.
    Last edited by Paula Deen; 2013-12-19 at 11:08 PM.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    No, because I don't regularly get up at 5 am, and very few guilds (none?) are running HCs at that hour. 400 valor in three hours is still faster than no valor in three hours.
    Sorry ment to type HS for Heroic Scenario. 3 people no guild required .

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by NuLogic View Post
    In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.
    Tank failures are seldom related to ilevel. Admittedly they are sometimes, but very rarely. More often than not the problem is a tank failing to taunt at the appropriate number of stacks or a tank failing to turn the boss from the raid at the appropriate time or even an overconfident tank who thinks he should pull the entire room because he managed to survive the pull when he ran flex with 24 other people in 560+ gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    This is a joke right? Tell me how that it is rude, hostile, and a "social-no-no," to help people when they are having trouble...... You know what... no don't, quite frankly I am disgusted that its considered a bad thing to try and be polite and make conversation in an MMO, really.

    This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told you are doing something wrong, then just quit.
    It seems that your rudeness is in fact being handled perfectly competently, by your being kicked.

    Offering unsolicited advice is not "polite conversation."

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.
    But if no one ever offers to help them they will just keep doing what they are doing (sucking) forever. If I was doing something completely the wrong way and sucking at it, I would want someone to at least point it out so I know.

    I would offer advice because I would want advice offered to me.

  12. #392
    The Lightbringer Paula Deen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    It seems that your rudeness is in fact being handled perfectly competently, by your being kicked.

    Offering unsolicited advice is not "polite conversation."
    First off, what does that even mean? I am serious, I am actually confused by the way that is worded. Second, offering advice is never a bad thing unless you are a jerk about it, which I am not. People need to learn somehow, Proving Grounds didn't do it, and no one else is doing it, so why doesn't the nice DPS who pulls 430k try and help some people out? Once again: This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by zozobra View Post
    I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.
    i completely agree.... long time tank and now I DPS some just b.c. of how tanking is. I hate "active" mitigation, and tank dps numbers. I liked it when my focus on was generating threat, grabbing adds, boss positioning, and watching out for the big hits. Heck if you had a threat lead you could auto attack and focus on other things if needed, and help direct the raid but now your expected to put up decent numbers, and use some CD's almost every time they are up.

  14. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    A queue is a queue. I don't know exactly how they implemented the LFR system, but as far as I can tell it goes something like this:

    There are three separate lines: one for tanks, one for DPS, and one for heals. As soon as a raid spot for the appropriate role opens up in an existing instance, the player in front is pulled. If a group happens to fill up and an instance is available the group gets to go.

    When you queue for multiples your place in line is held. If you happen to advance to the head of the line while you're doing your other raid you will simply cut straight to the front when you're done. Otherwise you're back in your old spot. The reason you can't tell why the queues are long is that there are several possible scenarios:

    1. Too many instances are running so you have to wait until one opens up.
    2. As tanks and heals leave other instances the ones queued up to run in your instance are getting redirected to those instead.
    3. There simply aren't enough tanks and/or heals running LFR to get even a single group together.

    Everyone seems to assume #3, but there's no way of knowing if that's really the case.
    It doesn't really work any of those ways.

    There is no "pausing" or "holding your place." Blizzard explains the feature that way but it doesn't/can't possibly work that way. Blizzard uses the time spent while inside content as a bonus to artificially advance players who have queued for multiple instances.

    Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is really quite complex and I think pretty versatile and overall amazing. It's something I think a fair bit about. It is elegant in that they have managed to make it look like something that players can understand and relate to, while in reality the implementation is necessarily something vastly more different and complex and counterintuitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    But if no one ever offers to help them they will just keep doing what they are doing (sucking) forever. If I was doing something completely the wrong way and sucking at it, I would want someone to at least point it out so I know.

    I would offer advice because I would want advice offered to me.
    You would ask for advice from a stranger if you wanted it.

    No one wants advice from strangers. Ever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    First off, what does that even mean? I am serious, I am actually confused by the way that is worded. Second, offering advice is never a bad thing unless you are a jerk about it, which I am not. People need to learn somehow, Proving Grounds didn't do it, and no one else is doing it, so why doesn't the nice DPS who pulls 430k try and help some people out? Once again: This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.
    Unsolicited advice from a stranger is always unwelcome. There just aren't any exceptions to this. Should you experience exceptions anyway, they are exceptions, not some kind of new social rule that applies only to video games.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    My says hello, as well as a lot of other players. The problem with LFR is not that at all, its the lack of accountability. I am fine if you pull 50k and still do mechanics its the people that STILL die to Durumu Beam and wipe groups on trash in Seige that need to be held accountable, another really good way they could fix LFR is offer incentive for ME and my friends to go through and teach and be helpful with the others who see LFR as a casual raiding environment. I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore. Its incredibly painful and LFR is awful because of the accountability, not because of Gearscore and Ego, give higher geared players an incentive to go, other than the crappy loot bag, and have some kind of accountability for actions in LFR.



    Side note: the creation of LFR was so casual players could see the content, there are some players that really have no place to even make it into LFR, its not mean, its not awful, its not rude, some people just do not have what it takes to do basic mechanics and those people can hurt the experience, not to mention the argument I hear ALOT is "I don't have time to raid 2 hours a night with a guild so I do LFR".... bad news LFR queues for DPS are almost 40 minutes on almost all wings of every LFR in Pandaria and once you get in prepare for another 2 hours of wiping. This stuff isn't mean, its a wake up call.
    You have a valid point there. I'm not saying you are wrong however I disagree with your viewpoint to a certain degree.

    The point I agree to is that to be honest as soon as you are Flex geared or raiding flex(Not even talking about further difficulty levels), there is really nothing to do in LFR. The gear drops are pretty much useless besides disenchanting them,valor is easily gained elsewhere,you probably already have the legendary quest done long ago from progressing Normals,HC so that's not an issue either. There really is no appeal to run an raid difficulty that people at your gear level can easily 10 man.

    However the point where I disagree is that you shouldn't allow certain people in LFR. As bad as they may be the feature is there right for that reason. The only thing that has changed is the people complaining about never raiding because they don't get invited because they are too "low" to people complaining about paired with players too "low". And that is something you just can't evade or fix. Because from business viewpoint it would be a bad decision by Blizzard to lock out certain people out from a feature otherwise accessible by all just because they are bluntly saying unmotivated,uneducated,experience lacking and with unpleasant personalities. So they offer them LFR and let people who are more raid oriented move on to other difficulties. It's like a sieve to sort out those who are actually interested in serious raiding and those who aren't.



    What I do not get in the end is why do you even want to return to same raid but with greatly lower difficulty settings that you have finished/are progressing now and expect to receive a significant motivation from Blizzard to do so.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Yea the guy without gems and enchants half afk in the corner is a heroic raider...

    No, raiders carry the groups. Raiders are those healers and dps doing twice what the next highest one is doing. Raiders are the ones who actually handle mechanics. Expecting you to contribute to the group and not slack off is not a douchebag move, but slacking off is.
    Like to point out my main is usually in top 3 for dps - and i never raid, cannot stand the elitist little bed wetters in the raiding guilds.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by NuLogic View Post
    In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.

    There really isn't much you can do about toxicity of players as long as it remains that hugely anonymous. Maybe a system that keeps track of you doing the correct mechanics for that instance? Would be rather difficult to do right though. Lfr will probably remain in bad shape for quite a while so it's best to just avoid it when possible.
    Shuffling around gear requirements wont make the role as whole more enjoying to play. I think they did go towards the right way with the entire active mitigation thing but still people don't play tanks not because of item requirement but how you have to play as a tank.

    Tracking them would be pointless as well. Because even a moderately Flex geared character currently can ignore about 80% of mechanics in LFR purely because his equipment scaling makes irrelevant the punishment received for ignoring them.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    No one wants advice from strangers. Ever.
    Bull. I just told you, if I was unwittingly doing something that was sub-optimal I would want someone to, at a minimum, tell me its not the best way to do it.

  19. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Bull. I just told you, if I was unwittingly doing something that was sub-optimal I would want someone to, at a minimum, tell me its not the best way to do it.
    Maybe from a friend or guildmate. Not from a stranger. Not just "someone."

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by zozobra View Post
    I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.
    I won't. It's just a matter of personal opinion. However I do agree that making tank into DPS in disguise is the wrong way to go. Tanking should actually feel like you know... tanking. However the DPS part in my argument was that sadly you need DPS to enjoy the rest of content.It's discouraging to do questing,farming,rep grinding etc. as a healer or tank if your specialization makes it terribly slower and sometimes even impossible unless overgeared compared to DPS class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Maybe from a friend or guildmate. Not from a stranger. Not just "someone."
    As they say never say never. People are different and mainly the whole argument in this thread is about it. There are those who don't mind being pointed out and there are those who do. It doesn't mean you should be afraid to ever tell people they are not doing what they should. Quite otherwise. You tell them that they are wrong and afterwards they can handle their own feelings however they want. The problems start when people start throwing around/replying to personal insults.

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