My suggestions to fix LFR

[Osmeric]

I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well.

That's a bad analogy. A theme park queue is due to finite capacity. LFR queues are due to lack of one of the roles making the other roles wait.

[Ronduwil]

Seeing how Blizzard isn't really great at bringing things into the game that addons have allowed in the past, highly doubt the Group System will be as good as oQueue.

Really? When was the last time you used that equipment manager addon? I can't even remember its name. How about Atlas Loot? Granted, there are some features that Blizzard didn't pull off as well as addons (I'm specifically referring to the AH UI). For the most part, however, Blizzard does a pretty good job of replacing addons when they're actually serious about it.

[Deleted]

I remember a blue saying something like "Flex still feels like raiding" which would imply LFR doesn't even in Blizzards view. And it most definitely doesn't feel like raiding.

its one thing when somebody brags about pulling 95k dps when they were in 496 gear. its another to say that 60k dps is not even close to acceptable for 496 (Siege minimum)

because people will listen? Most have instance chat ignored or if you whisper them respond angrily. They don't want to get better, because those who do want to get better have already bothered to learn to play.

and get called a controlling elitist and kicked or just flat out ignored? They're not going to try, you can't make them try, the group is accepting that they won't try because many other members are not trying. If there was some way to actually let experience players LEAD a LFR group that would be one thing, but hiding chat or simply ignoring people is a problem. Unless they let those with AoTC or something queue as a leader and have control over pulls, groups and the authority to kick, the bads will protect the bads from the mean elitists who expect them to carry their weight.

While LFR isn't the same thing as they say "actual" raiding for 25 mans.(Which I agree to. It isn't.) It still is a group activity by,usually, 25 people trying to achieve the same goal and I don't see how saying "LFR isn't like raiding at all" actually has any meaning that would be relevant to my statement.

Bragging about performing better than others is indeed different than insulting others about not performing as good as they could. However once again I can not understand what are you trying to say by stating that. Because it's clear that as persons experience grows so does their performance and if it's lacking it's possible to perform worse than you could if you knew how.

Sour taste sure lingers. It might come as surprise but people actually do listen if you offer a comment or advice in a sensible and non-offensive way. You are looking at the problem as if there are only one way of leading a raid which would be an elitist taking control of others like dumb sheep. But it's not like that. Most people playing WoW aren't stupid(There are always exceptions), and such simple things as placing the markers for people can improve the performance of a group by a lot.

[cabyio]

I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well. Yes, the tank/healer/dps ratios are still screwed up, but that problem is only magnified when more people queue. Longer queue times don't necessarily imply that LFR is doing worse. Like I just said in another post, I was able to farm about 400 valor from LFR as DPS in less than three hours today.

But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs

[Deleted]

But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs

And it's even faster if you speed run Scenarios. But Valor isn't the only thing obtainable from LFR.

[Sir Loin]

The major problem I have as it currently stands is my queues are always averaged over an hour for LFR sometimes 80 min wait sometimes 40 mins. The only time its shorter if it happens to be a last boss. So LFR is becoming impossible for someone with a shorter time to raid. i.e. a casual. So instead I try and jump on flex but you run into the good ol gearscore/ilvl issue. I am often in queues for 40ish mins only to get pulled in for a last attempt at the boss where I am one of the last people alive and have dps equivalent to the same class and role, 20 ilvls higher than me. I really enjoy flex raiding but the community for competent casuals is basically non existant.
The only time I can remember something akin to LFR working was back when ToC when groups used to carry people to auction off pieces of loot. So incentive could be there for people to go back and help out LFR but the game would have to track not only ilvl and role but also some how their actual input and then reward it with higher levels of gold or something.

[Draknalor186]

But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs

indeed.. HC scenario gives 100 valor each (with the timed bonus ofc) and not counting the first(wich give even more) and each hc scenario take at max 15 min

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And it's even faster if you speed run Scenarios. But Valor isn't the only thing obtainable from LFR.

then why use it as an example "LFR is so good i got 400 valor in 3hrs"

[MoanaLisa]

What I don't get is why would people keep playing a game that they suck royal ass at? Even if a game showers me with rewards, if I am shitty at it (compared to other players) and I cannot improve, I don't continue to play it. The ability of people to accept mediocrity just stuns the shit out of me.

Really? Your definition of the only reason people play games is because they're competent at them? Fun never enters into it?

Some people play with friends or family. Does that mean they should stop if they don't meet your criteria for competence?

Some people do little except raise alts in different ways. They find that fun. Is that terribly difficult? No. Would they suck at raiding? They very well might. Does that mean they should leave?

Should they go into Raid Finder? Sure, if they want. That's who it's for. I'll give you they should actually...you know..try while they're in there. That right there makes them better than the AFK brigade many of whom seem to feel they're too good to bother actually pressing buttons while they're in there.

Your inability to see beyond your limited view of why people play is pretty stunning in itself.

[Deleted]

The major problem I have as it currently stands is my queues are always averaged over an hour for LFR sometimes 80 min wait sometimes 40 mins. The only time its shorter if it happens to be a last boss. So LFR is becoming impossible for someone with a shorter time to raid. i.e. a casual. So instead I try and jump on flex but you run into the good ol gearscore/ilvl issue. I am often in queues for 40ish mins only to get pulled in for a last attempt at the boss where I am one of the last people alive and have dps equivalent to the same class and role, 20 ilvls higher than me. I really enjoy flex raiding but the community for competent casuals is basically non existant.
The only time I can remember something akin to LFR working was back when ToC when groups used to carry people to auction off pieces of loot. So incentive could be there for people to go back and help out LFR but the game would have to track not only ilvl and role but also some how their actual input and then reward it with higher levels of gold or something.

I think the reason for that isn't LFR itself but the lack of appeal of taking up tanking/healer class. Because to be honest they are the ones usually you have to wait for. Which is why I'm looking forward to WoD tank DPS changes because it is discouraging to play a tank when outside taking damage in raids mostly what you can do is hit like a wet noodle.

[Ronduwil]

But you could have farmed 500ish in an hour by doing 4 HCs. Way faster to farm valor then LFRs

No, because I don't regularly get up at 5 am, and very few guilds (none?) are running HCs at that hour. 400 valor in three hours is still faster than no valor in three hours.

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And it's even faster if you speed run Scenarios. But Valor isn't the only thing obtainable from LFR.

Exactly. I was actually in it for the Secrets of the Empire, but the valor was a nice bonus.

[Normie]

And that's where we disagree. Expecting players to do "homework" before playing the game is just bad/lazy game design. That's not a player failure. That's a Blizzard failure.

Yeah. That is just not the way I play the game. That is not how a supposedly immersive game is played, either.

At low to moderate levels of tuning, the game should be playable -- successfully -- without anyone expecting or needing help from outside resources. If heroic content can't realistically be cleared without out-of-game effort, that's fine. That's a different game than plain old World of Warcraft.

WoW mostly succeeds at that, but it fails in some ways. The player base fails too, in not understanding this basic premise of the game.

[Paula Deen]

To be honest my view on people who complain about LFR being too tedious due to other player low gear/experience/skill etc.. are actually quite low themselves. Here's my reasoning behind that opinion.

My armory says hello, as well as a lot of other players. The problem with LFR is not that at all, its the lack of accountability. I am fine if you pull 50k and still do mechanics its the people that STILL die to Durumu Beam and wipe groups on trash in Seige that need to be held accountable, another really good way they could fix LFR is offer incentive for ME and my friends to go through and teach and be helpful with the others who see LFR as a casual raiding environment. I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore. Its incredibly painful and LFR is awful because of the accountability, not because of Gearscore and Ego, give higher geared players an incentive to go, other than the crappy loot bag, and have some kind of accountability for actions in LFR.



Side note: the creation of LFR was so casual players could see the content, there are some players that really have no place to even make it into LFR, its not mean, its not awful, its not rude, some people just do not have what it takes to do basic mechanics and those people can hurt the experience, not to mention the argument I hear ALOT is "I don't have time to raid 2 hours a night with a guild so I do LFR".... bad news LFR queues for DPS are almost 40 minutes on almost all wings of every LFR in Pandaria and once you get in prepare for another 2 hours of wiping. This stuff isn't mean, its a wake up call.

[Normie]

I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well. Yes, the tank/healer/dps ratios are still screwed up, but that problem is only magnified when more people queue. Longer queue times don't necessarily imply that LFR is doing worse. Like I just said in another post, I was able to farm about 400 valor from LFR as DPS in less than three hours today.

I agree with 98% of what you are saying, but instance queue times in WoW don't reflect the "length" of a queue. They only reflect the availability of people to fill required roles, and the time that each of those roles spends in the instance.

Anyway if you have time to play LFR back to back, you can queue for a whole bunch and, like you said, have instant pops after you are done with the first one. That is not how queues actually work but Blizzard does people who are queued for multiple instances a FAVOR by moving them to the head of the line. You are actually delaying someone else in your role when you accept the instant pop when you finish an instance.

If you have relevant programming experience, it's interesting to think about how Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is implemented. It's really not "get in line and wait" at all. Not by a long shot.

[Cute Chen]

I think the reason for that isn't LFR itself but the lack of appeal of taking up tanking/healer class. Because to be honest they are the ones usually you have to wait for. Which is why I'm looking forward to WoD tank DPS changes because it is discouraging to play a tank when outside taking damage in raids mostly what you can do is hit like a wet noodle.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.

[Ronduwil]

I stand corrected. So I guess it's easy, normal, hard 10-man, and super-hard 25-man.

You clearly have no idea about the current raiding scene.

I believe I was referring to the future raiding scene. I don't take it too seriously because nothing they ever say that far in advance is set in stone and more often than not they change it beyond recognition by the time it hits. I still remember in late Wrath when Blizzard was saying that ideally every class should feel like they're OP and then Cataclysm hit and I felt decidedly underpowered. But I digress. I screwed up the super-hard 25-man. Evidently it's:

Easy 10-man
Normal 10-man
Hard 10-man
Super-hard 20-man

If they actually bring back challenging heroics like they claim they are going to I doubt I will do any of those modes anyway.

[Normie]

I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore.

Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.

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In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less interesting because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector.

Frankly, if you want to demonstrate calmness, experience, and leadership skills, there really is NO BETTER place to do it than as a tank in LFR. A good tank is just about the only one person who can really have a major effect on how LFR goes for 24 other people.

[Cute Chen]

Frankly, if you want to demonstrate calmness, experience, and leadership skills, there really is NO BETTER place to do it than as a tank in LFR. A good tank is just about the only one person who can really have a major effect on how LFR goes for 24 other people.

I completely agree, but the current damage-based design of tanking just isn't fun for me.

[NuLogic]

In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.

There really isn't much you can do about toxicity of players as long as it remains that hugely anonymous. Maybe a system that keeps track of you doing the correct mechanics for that instance? Would be rather difficult to do right though. Lfr will probably remain in bad shape for quite a while so it's best to just avoid it when possible.

[Ronduwil]

If you have relevant programming experience, it's interesting to think about how Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is implemented. It's really not "get in line and wait" at all. Not by a long shot.

A queue is a queue. I don't know exactly how they implemented the LFR system, but as far as I can tell it goes something like this:

There are three separate lines: one for tanks, one for DPS, and one for heals. As soon as a raid spot for the appropriate role opens up in an existing instance, the player in front is pulled. If a group happens to fill up and an instance is available the group gets to go.

When you queue for multiples your place in line is held. If you happen to advance to the head of the line while you're doing your other raid you will simply cut straight to the front when you're done. Otherwise you're back in your old spot. The reason you can't tell why the queues are long is that there are several possible scenarios:

1. Too many instances are running so you have to wait until one opens up.
2. As tanks and heals leave other instances the ones queued up to run in your instance are getting redirected to those instead.
3. There simply aren't enough tanks and/or heals running LFR to get even a single group together.

Everyone seems to assume #3, but there's no way of knowing if that's really the case.

[Paula Deen]

Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.

This is a joke right? Tell me how that it is rude, hostile, and a "social-no-no," to help people when they are having trouble...... You know what... no don't, quite frankly I am disgusted that its considered a bad thing to try and be polite and make conversation in an MMO, really.

This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.