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  1. #121
    Mechagnome reemi's Avatar
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    The problem is not LFR, there's too many raid level and timeless isle gear should be lower than LFR.

    Flex or Normal or Heroic, I don't care, All I want is the LFR tools to join any group any time, without using an addons like OQ.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You don't need a reason. It's just a game. If you don't want to "carry" people then don't run LFR. They don't want you in their instance anyway.
    Thats whats actually happening right now. People who didnt want to carry people in LFR moved to Flex.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    So when you're in LFR and after a quick alt+tab, bathroom break and drink refill you notice your raid wiped, do you feel guilty about putting up sub 100k dps in the gear you opened boxes and went afk to get? Or does the fact you paid $15 allow 24 strangers to be resposible for dressing up your ingame barbie doll so you can afk in Shrine and post on the forums about lack of content?
    No, because I do the best I can in the gear I have. Why would I play a game to AFK? The whole point of the game for me is the encounter. The loot at the end of the fight is a nice bonus. I was perfectly happy in the original Guild Wars where you bought the best gear in the game at max level and from then on it was all transmog. Gear just isn't a priority for me. I honestly am puzzled at all the rage people have at the thought of others in sub-par LFR gear. Most players in LFR are actually trying. I rarely see someone AFK in there. When someone is caught AFKing they are promptly kicked. This forum has a very skewed view of LFR. It's not 5 players trying while 20 others AFK. No bosses would ever go down that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  4. #124
    Mechagnome reemi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reemi View Post
    The problem is not LFR, there's too many raid level and timeless isle gear should be lower than LFR.

    Flex or Normal or Heroic, I don't care, All I want is the LFR tools to join any group any time, without using an addons like OQ.
    You want to give avantage to tank ? Then you should also punish them for leaving before the first boss, it's happening 50% of the time.

  5. #125
    High Overlord Sinyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Because Flex still requires a third party addon, ever-escalating gear requirements (530 a few weeks ago, 540 now), and about 2-3 hours to organize.
    2-3 hours to set up? Clearly this game isn't for you then.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    Thats whats actually happening right now. People who didnt want to carry people in LFR moved to Flex.
    Again, this is inconsistent with reality. LFR is still the most popular form of raiding in the game. Wishful thinking doesn't generate facts. If I had to speculate I would say that Flex probably siphoned more players from Normal than it did from LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yarmock View Post
    2-3 hours to set up? Clearly this game isn't for you then.
    Actually it is still for me because I can still run LFR on my own and go on the occasional Flex guild runs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    They're going to fix that in WoD. Bring down LFR rewards slightly (probably eliminating tier is all they need to do because getting tier in other content would be weird) and buff rewards from other content such as open world and hard heroic dungeons to be equal. There, now the people running it will all be the intended audience.
    Where did they say that? Is this going to be like that time in Cataclysm where they "fixed" Heroic Dungeons by removing starter epics from them? How much lower are they going to make the LFR rewards? Is 50 ilevels difference not enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Again, this is inconsistent with reality. LFR is still the most popular form of raiding in the game. Wishful thinking doesn't generate facts. If I had to speculate I would say that Flex probably siphoned more players from Normal than it did from LFR.

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    Actually it is still for me because I can still run LFR on my own and go on the occasional Flex guild runs.
    Popular doesnt mean fun, long lasting content. Leveling is popular. Everyone who is 90 leveled. Not everyone likes leveling.

    Same thing with LFR, it offers the best gear in game for casual players. The problem is its the only source of that gear. (TI close but has no weapons or 2nd trinket and no legendary rewards) So whether or not you like raid-style content you're forced into it. WoD should fix that. Blizzard has very strongly hinted its rewards will be more in line with other content like open world/garrisons/heroic 5 mans.

    There are many who like LFR. But its numbers are inflated by its rewards. In no way am I saying get rid of it, just that there should be more options for casual players.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Again, this is inconsistent with reality. LFR is still the most popular form of raiding in the game.
    I'm not entirely sure this is still true, if you consider the latter parts of SoO where LFR participation declines.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Again, this is inconsistent with reality. LFR is still the most popular form of raiding in the game. Wishful thinking doesn't generate facts. If I had to speculate I would say that Flex probably siphoned more players from Normal than it did from LFR.

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    Actually it is still for me because I can still run LFR on my own and go on the occasional Flex guild runs.
    Do you have any evidence to back that up? Because while I don't have anything either (as I'm not a Blizzard employee) I can say that a lot of players LOVE flex because it allows them the ability to actually face a challenge in an environment where they weren't just randomly tossed together by some algorithim, on a time schedule that their personal taste obliges. That's what was sorely missing from LFR in 5.0, any form of actual challenne in random, queable content. Flex bridged the gap between LFR and structured/organized raiding.

    I can't think for the life of me why anyone who has the slightest grasp of mechanics of their class would elect LFR over Flex. The rewards in both actual challenge, the social experience and actual in game loot are vastly superior. I honestly can't understand why anyone who wasn't a sub-par player and lacks the desire to try and improve would opt not to do Flex over LFR. As others have stated, the time sink to que and complete an LFR is almost always much higher than for a Flex. Because people can be removed at the drop of a hat, they're much more likely to act in a positive way.

    LFR should (and I think it's headed in that direction) only serve as a content mode or environment where players can refine their rotation after practicing on a target dummy.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    Do you have any evidence to back that up? Because while I don't have anything either (as I'm not a Blizzard employee) I can say that a lot of players LOVE flex because it allows them the ability to actually face a challenge in an environment where they weren't just randomly tossed together by some algorithim, on a time schedule that their personal taste obliges. That's what was sorely missing from LFR in 5.0, any form of actual challenne in random, queable content. Flex bridged the gap between LFR and structured/organized raiding.

    I can't think for the life of me why anyone who has the slightest grasp of mechanics of their class would elect LFR over Flex. The rewards in both actual challenge, the social experience and actual in game loot are vastly superior. I honestly can't understand why anyone who wasn't a sub-par player and lacks the desire to try and improve would opt not to do Flex over LFR. As others have stated, the time sink to que and complete an LFR is almost always much higher than for a Flex. Because people can be removed at the drop of a hat, they're much more likely to act in a positive way.

    LFR should (and I think it's headed in that direction) only serve as a content mode or environment where players can refine their rotation after practicing on a target dummy.
    i woudn't say flex gives a 'vastly superior' challenge. if anything its easier than LFR. in flex you're with people who are slightly competent and can push over 150k dps and won't purposely wipe the group. with all that and the fact the tactics are exactly the same as LFR in nearly all of the boss fights, it makes flex much easier than LFR.

    the only boss which provides decent groups with a challenge in flex is garrosh really, the others are rather easy.

  11. #131
    ^ By that logic, heroic bosses are the easiest in game because the players attempting them are the best geared, best skilled, belong to an existing group with months if not years of prior group experience and utilize VoIP communication to change as needed.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    ^ By that logic, heroic bosses are the easiest in game because the players attempting them are the best geared, best skilled, belong to an existing group with months if not years of prior group experience and utilize VoIP communication to change as needed.
    not really, because the difference between flex and LFR is minimal. whereas heroic is extremely hard compared to the rest of the difficulties.

  13. #133
    It's fine to increase the incentive to queue as a tank or healer, but you would HAVE to start placing tighter restrictions on who can queue as what. We already have a crapton of assholes zoning in as tanks in dps gear just so they can skip the queue. No need to make that problem worse.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And I expect the gear rewards to be massively nerfed, or even entirely removed. Heroic 5 mans and world PvE would be back as the catch-up mechanism, particularly if they bump up the difficulty of existing dungeons from tier to tier.
    Blizzard can't make dungeon rewards any higher than LFR because it would die in a day. While I would love to have it be so, the see the content excuse is bullshit, they are there for their gear, and when you can do dungeons for gear the entire username of LFR will be those who resub once a patch. They NEED LFR to stay useful so they will jam it into as many points of gear progression as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    not really, because the difference between flex and LFR is minimal. whereas heroic is extremely hard compared to the rest of the difficulties.
    Difference between flex and normal is minimal, just higher damage and healing requirements, and mechanics are less forgiving. Flex and LFR is a huge jump. No determination to make up for bad numbers, the numbers requirements are actually somewhat serious, mechanics are forgiving but cannot be ignored, and none are removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    i woudn't say flex gives a 'vastly superior' challenge. if anything its easier than LFR. in flex you're with people who are slightly competent and can push over 150k dps and won't purposely wipe the group. with all that and the fact the tactics are exactly the same as LFR in nearly all of the boss fights, it makes flex much easier than LFR.

    the only boss which provides decent groups with a challenge in flex is garrosh really, the others are rather easy.
    Thok is the hardest boss in LFR IMO, but again Flex is harder because it is tuned more tightly. Same group in LFR makes LFR literally face roll. It is the bad players in LFR that make it harder than it is.

  15. #135
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    It is the bad players in LFR that make it harder than it is.
    As long as we acknowledge that there are a couple of types of bad players I agree with this:

    1. New players who are trying. They should be encouraged not abused.

    2. Inexperienced players trying out raiding or the instance for the first couple of times. May be a bit confused but can actually be seen casting spells. Leave them alone and let them figure it out unless they ask for help.

    3. Ungeared alts. Leave them alone if they're busy doing useful things. Their numbers will suck for a while but that will solve itself.

    4. Bad players who aren't trying. Kick them.

    5. Good players in great gear who aren't trying. Kick them.

    Arguably the first two aren't bad players but we're all new and bad at some point. The inexcusable stuff and the things I'd like to see gone are the last two. Most often people don't even bother to distinguish though.
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  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalkinDude View Post
    If you really want to fix LFR, go in there and make them wipe repeatedly on mechanics that allow it. Maybe just maybe a friend and I went into LFR SoO and started the instance as soon as we zoned in after each wipe. No one knew who was talking to Lor'themar and all they did was bicker and fight. By making LFR truly inhospitable, you're going to force players into trying Flex where they will either sink or swim. I've had the fortune of LFR heroes trying to come into a Flex fight and think their 80k dps is just fine and dandy and that they don't need to stand in the purple puddle next to them on Malkorok. Their asses are sent packing real quick and after a couple more times, they'll either improve their playstyle or stay in LFR where they belong. Now that LFR is almost entirely Timeless Heroes who want to afk their way to SoO loot, the instance is a damned nightmare.
    Way to go. Go in there with the specific purpose to cause grief. For what? To "prove" that LFR and those engage in it sucks at the game? You are not "fixing" the game. You just becoming part of the problem and just proving there some real ashat out there that just enjoying causing grief to others.

    So what happens? They try flex, can't handle it, return to LFR and meet people like you sabotaging LFR to "prove" a point that LFR is hospitable because there are people like you making it so.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As long as we acknowledge that there are a couple of types of bad players I agree with this:

    1. New players who are trying. They should be encouraged not abused.

    2. Inexperienced players trying out raiding or the instance for the first couple of times. May be a bit confused but can actually be seen casting spells. Leave them alone and let them figure it out unless they ask for help.

    3. Ungeared alts. Leave them alone if they're busy doing useful things. Their numbers will suck for a while but that will solve itself.

    4. Bad players who aren't trying. Kick them.

    5. Good players in great gear who aren't trying. Kick them.

    Arguably the first two aren't bad players but we're all new and bad at some point. The inexcusable stuff and the things I'd like to see gone are the last two. Most often people don't even bother to distinguish though.
    Exactly.

    LFR as a tool works great.

    The defect factor is a group of few specific players using LFR: Players who have enough of non-skilled players, or players that dont care. As a result they just rage. Players that want to get carried. Players that think they are entitled to anything they want just because they pay for the game. And so on..

    Dont be surprised that you have to spend 2-3 hours in queue because there are no tanks/healers/damagers. They just had enough of that attitude in LFR.
    Behavior of players cannot be fixed by Blizzard, unless they start to punish them or something radical.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    off topic but can you people sound less like assholes for once?

    back on topic
    1. define zero accountability.
    2. que times are crap because of dps and healers treating tanks like crap.

    LFR is mostly a community issue because the community created it. blizzard cant find that, the community has to.
    For #1, I can give an example from last night. Someone noticed a player in the raid doing 10k dps on Dark Shamans. I inspect to see what's up. They are missing literally half their gear. As in, nothing in those slots. Nothing is gemmed or enchanted. Their item level is 323. No one wants to kick them because everyone knows it's going to screw their kick-timer and their queue time. The "noob" tries to play it off and act all innocent ("I'm just here to get gear guys, I didn't know it would be a problem. I'm new, teehee"). I take a look at their armory and they've been playing since vanilla. Seriously playing. Decent PVP rank and raiding. They completed all the heroic pandarian dungeons a year ago. Doesn't matter, raid carries on with them in the group. THAT is zero accountability for being an asshole, because the geniuses at Blizzard not only passively punish players who utilize the only measure available to them, but don't implement any sort of gate to keep assholes like that out (or at least slow them down). And that drags down the LFR experience for everyone else. Enough incidents like that- especially when things like that contribute to wipe after wipe- and even the most cheery, patient player is going to start losing their tolerance- and their civil demeanor.

    Side rant: Say what you want, it's obvious the current devs are pretty talented at some things, but they are absolute shit at some aspects of game design. I mean shit. It's like the current leads are good at coming up with ideas, single-player mechanics and QOL measures but have no concept of how to design features with human nature in mind; they really suck at social game design.
    Last edited by Alternategray; 2013-12-17 at 07:42 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As long as we acknowledge that there are a couple of types of bad players I agree with this:

    1. New players who are trying. They should be encouraged not abused.

    2. Inexperienced players trying out raiding or the instance for the first couple of times. May be a bit confused but can actually be seen casting spells. Leave them alone and let them figure it out unless they ask for help.

    3. Ungeared alts. Leave them alone if they're busy doing useful things. Their numbers will suck for a while but that will solve itself.

    4. Bad players who aren't trying. Kick them.

    5. Good players in great gear who aren't trying. Kick them.

    Arguably the first two aren't bad players but we're all new and bad at some point. The inexcusable stuff and the things I'd like to see gone are the last two. Most often people don't even bother to distinguish though.
    I agree except that new players should still be talked to, maybe in a whisper. They won't know they are making mistakes if nobody tells them. Same goes for the second group, but they should still be encouraged to at the the very least use the tab in their spell book and the dungeon journal.

    Under geared alts of a good player will still do good dps for their gear. SoO does require 496 so expecting around that dps is not a big stretch. My question is how do you tell a bad player who is new from a bad player? Achievement stalking isn't very effective. Plus either party should ask questions. I understand asking for clarification/markers, but asking for somebody to just explain the stray because you never took a minute to read us disrespectful to the group, and even worse when a ready check goes out or somebody asks if anybody has questions and nobody speaks up. We were all new at one point, but LFR doesn't make anybody get better since nobody is accountable. Even in 4.3 stuff like Ultraxion meant everybody had to work for dps, frequently rolling kicks would go out to those who weren't doing well. It may be a turn off to now players but for others it is a reason to get better. Now determination and frequent nerfs plus a community tooforgiving has made it so nobody needs to improve or will.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    2. Inexperienced players trying out raiding or the instance for the first couple of times. May be a bit confused but can actually be seen casting spells. Leave them alone and let them figure it out unless they ask for help.
    I really disagree with this one. It's a little too snowflakey tbh. If they want to play with other players in a large group they need to be doing things right, although that doesn't mean anyone should be giving those new players hell. Remember: many new players have no idea what a meter is. They have no way to gauge how well they're doing. They have no idea about a lot of things, much less proper rotations. That guy doing 20k in Underhold might very well think he's doing great. But instead of screaming at him or demeaning him, you take a look at his casts and see if he's missing anything crucial. Look at his gear, maybe he's decked out in something crazy. Help him. Everyone did it for us when we started playing. Pass that shit on, just be cool about it. If they have a problem with that (and some people really do) they probably shouldn't be in LFR or any other group; the problem is with them for playing an MMO and expecting others to not talk to them or offer advice. If they can't handle social interactions, I won't necessarily say they chose the wrong game but they definitely should stay away from this aspect of it.

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