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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    No, because I don't regularly get up at 5 am, and very few guilds (none?) are running HCs at that hour. 400 valor in three hours is still faster than no valor in three hours.
    Sorry ment to type HS for Heroic Scenario. 3 people no guild required .

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by NuLogic View Post
    In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.
    Tank failures are seldom related to ilevel. Admittedly they are sometimes, but very rarely. More often than not the problem is a tank failing to taunt at the appropriate number of stacks or a tank failing to turn the boss from the raid at the appropriate time or even an overconfident tank who thinks he should pull the entire room because he managed to survive the pull when he ran flex with 24 other people in 560+ gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    This is a joke right? Tell me how that it is rude, hostile, and a "social-no-no," to help people when they are having trouble...... You know what... no don't, quite frankly I am disgusted that its considered a bad thing to try and be polite and make conversation in an MMO, really.

    This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told you are doing something wrong, then just quit.
    It seems that your rudeness is in fact being handled perfectly competently, by your being kicked.

    Offering unsolicited advice is not "polite conversation."

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Offering unsolicited advice to strangers, no matter how (you think) correct or (you think) desperately needed nor (you think) politely offered, is incredibly rude and a social no-no. That is a fact. The rudeness greatly outweighs the value of the certain-to-be-ignored advice, and by creating drama, you receive a deserved kick.
    But if no one ever offers to help them they will just keep doing what they are doing (sucking) forever. If I was doing something completely the wrong way and sucking at it, I would want someone to at least point it out so I know.

    I would offer advice because I would want advice offered to me.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    It seems that your rudeness is in fact being handled perfectly competently, by your being kicked.

    Offering unsolicited advice is not "polite conversation."
    First off, what does that even mean? I am serious, I am actually confused by the way that is worded. Second, offering advice is never a bad thing unless you are a jerk about it, which I am not. People need to learn somehow, Proving Grounds didn't do it, and no one else is doing it, so why doesn't the nice DPS who pulls 430k try and help some people out? Once again: This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by zozobra View Post
    I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.
    i completely agree.... long time tank and now I DPS some just b.c. of how tanking is. I hate "active" mitigation, and tank dps numbers. I liked it when my focus on was generating threat, grabbing adds, boss positioning, and watching out for the big hits. Heck if you had a threat lead you could auto attack and focus on other things if needed, and help direct the raid but now your expected to put up decent numbers, and use some CD's almost every time they are up.

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    A queue is a queue. I don't know exactly how they implemented the LFR system, but as far as I can tell it goes something like this:

    There are three separate lines: one for tanks, one for DPS, and one for heals. As soon as a raid spot for the appropriate role opens up in an existing instance, the player in front is pulled. If a group happens to fill up and an instance is available the group gets to go.

    When you queue for multiples your place in line is held. If you happen to advance to the head of the line while you're doing your other raid you will simply cut straight to the front when you're done. Otherwise you're back in your old spot. The reason you can't tell why the queues are long is that there are several possible scenarios:

    1. Too many instances are running so you have to wait until one opens up.
    2. As tanks and heals leave other instances the ones queued up to run in your instance are getting redirected to those instead.
    3. There simply aren't enough tanks and/or heals running LFR to get even a single group together.

    Everyone seems to assume #3, but there's no way of knowing if that's really the case.
    It doesn't really work any of those ways.

    There is no "pausing" or "holding your place." Blizzard explains the feature that way but it doesn't/can't possibly work that way. Blizzard uses the time spent while inside content as a bonus to artificially advance players who have queued for multiple instances.

    Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is really quite complex and I think pretty versatile and overall amazing. It's something I think a fair bit about. It is elegant in that they have managed to make it look like something that players can understand and relate to, while in reality the implementation is necessarily something vastly more different and complex and counterintuitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    But if no one ever offers to help them they will just keep doing what they are doing (sucking) forever. If I was doing something completely the wrong way and sucking at it, I would want someone to at least point it out so I know.

    I would offer advice because I would want advice offered to me.
    You would ask for advice from a stranger if you wanted it.

    No one wants advice from strangers. Ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    First off, what does that even mean? I am serious, I am actually confused by the way that is worded. Second, offering advice is never a bad thing unless you are a jerk about it, which I am not. People need to learn somehow, Proving Grounds didn't do it, and no one else is doing it, so why doesn't the nice DPS who pulls 430k try and help some people out? Once again: This isn't a feelings simulator its a video game, if a person cannot handle being told they are doing something wrong, then just quit.
    Unsolicited advice from a stranger is always unwelcome. There just aren't any exceptions to this. Should you experience exceptions anyway, they are exceptions, not some kind of new social rule that applies only to video games.

  8. #388
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    My says hello, as well as a lot of other players. The problem with LFR is not that at all, its the lack of accountability. I am fine if you pull 50k and still do mechanics its the people that STILL die to Durumu Beam and wipe groups on trash in Seige that need to be held accountable, another really good way they could fix LFR is offer incentive for ME and my friends to go through and teach and be helpful with the others who see LFR as a casual raiding environment. I can't even help people in dungeons without getting kicked anymore. Its incredibly painful and LFR is awful because of the accountability, not because of Gearscore and Ego, give higher geared players an incentive to go, other than the crappy loot bag, and have some kind of accountability for actions in LFR.



    Side note: the creation of LFR was so casual players could see the content, there are some players that really have no place to even make it into LFR, its not mean, its not awful, its not rude, some people just do not have what it takes to do basic mechanics and those people can hurt the experience, not to mention the argument I hear ALOT is "I don't have time to raid 2 hours a night with a guild so I do LFR".... bad news LFR queues for DPS are almost 40 minutes on almost all wings of every LFR in Pandaria and once you get in prepare for another 2 hours of wiping. This stuff isn't mean, its a wake up call.
    You have a valid point there. I'm not saying you are wrong however I disagree with your viewpoint to a certain degree.

    The point I agree to is that to be honest as soon as you are Flex geared or raiding flex(Not even talking about further difficulty levels), there is really nothing to do in LFR. The gear drops are pretty much useless besides disenchanting them,valor is easily gained elsewhere,you probably already have the legendary quest done long ago from progressing Normals,HC so that's not an issue either. There really is no appeal to run an raid difficulty that people at your gear level can easily 10 man.

    However the point where I disagree is that you shouldn't allow certain people in LFR. As bad as they may be the feature is there right for that reason. The only thing that has changed is the people complaining about never raiding because they don't get invited because they are too "low" to people complaining about paired with players too "low". And that is something you just can't evade or fix. Because from business viewpoint it would be a bad decision by Blizzard to lock out certain people out from a feature otherwise accessible by all just because they are bluntly saying unmotivated,uneducated,experience lacking and with unpleasant personalities. So they offer them LFR and let people who are more raid oriented move on to other difficulties. It's like a sieve to sort out those who are actually interested in serious raiding and those who aren't.



    What I do not get in the end is why do you even want to return to same raid but with greatly lower difficulty settings that you have finished/are progressing now and expect to receive a significant motivation from Blizzard to do so.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Yea the guy without gems and enchants half afk in the corner is a heroic raider...

    No, raiders carry the groups. Raiders are those healers and dps doing twice what the next highest one is doing. Raiders are the ones who actually handle mechanics. Expecting you to contribute to the group and not slack off is not a douchebag move, but slacking off is.
    Like to point out my main is usually in top 3 for dps - and i never raid, cannot stand the elitist little bed wetters in the raiding guilds.

  10. #390
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by NuLogic View Post
    In order to get more tanks they can lower the item level requirement and give the tanks a huge buff to compensate. Don't think the quality can get any worse with all the catch up gear.

    There really isn't much you can do about toxicity of players as long as it remains that hugely anonymous. Maybe a system that keeps track of you doing the correct mechanics for that instance? Would be rather difficult to do right though. Lfr will probably remain in bad shape for quite a while so it's best to just avoid it when possible.
    Shuffling around gear requirements wont make the role as whole more enjoying to play. I think they did go towards the right way with the entire active mitigation thing but still people don't play tanks not because of item requirement but how you have to play as a tank.

    Tracking them would be pointless as well. Because even a moderately Flex geared character currently can ignore about 80% of mechanics in LFR purely because his equipment scaling makes irrelevant the punishment received for ignoring them.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    No one wants advice from strangers. Ever.
    Bull. I just told you, if I was unwittingly doing something that was sub-optimal I would want someone to, at a minimum, tell me its not the best way to do it.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Bull. I just told you, if I was unwittingly doing something that was sub-optimal I would want someone to, at a minimum, tell me its not the best way to do it.
    Maybe from a friend or guildmate. Not from a stranger. Not just "someone."

  13. #393
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by zozobra View Post
    I can't speak for anyone but myself, so don't turn this into a "you don't represent every wow player" argument. I was a loyal prot warrior for years and I hate the direction the developers are going with the role of tanking. On top of being responsible for keeping the targets organized and protecting the raid, we have the additional responsibility of doing competitive DPS. In the developer's attempt at making tanking more attractive to the "LOL BIG NUMBERS" crowd, they have actually made the role less appealing because of the additional responsibility. I did my job and did it very well. I was proud of my tanking, leadership and awareness skills. But doing my job wasn't enough, now I'm a damage class disguised as a protector. I quit playing my warrior and quit tanking all together, but when I raid with my pals today, the tanks only talk about who's doing more damage on each fight. I hate what has happened to the role and it only looks to be getting worse.
    I won't. It's just a matter of personal opinion. However I do agree that making tank into DPS in disguise is the wrong way to go. Tanking should actually feel like you know... tanking. However the DPS part in my argument was that sadly you need DPS to enjoy the rest of content.It's discouraging to do questing,farming,rep grinding etc. as a healer or tank if your specialization makes it terribly slower and sometimes even impossible unless overgeared compared to DPS class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Maybe from a friend or guildmate. Not from a stranger. Not just "someone."
    As they say never say never. People are different and mainly the whole argument in this thread is about it. There are those who don't mind being pointed out and there are those who do. It doesn't mean you should be afraid to ever tell people they are not doing what they should. Quite otherwise. You tell them that they are wrong and afterwards they can handle their own feelings however they want. The problems start when people start throwing around/replying to personal insults.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Saffa View Post
    Like to point out my main is usually in top 3 for dps - and i never raid, cannot stand the elitist little bed wetters in the raiding guilds.
    he was aiming that at me but missed the point where my mains gear was mostly gemmed.
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  15. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Bull. I just told you, if I was unwittingly doing something that was sub-optimal I would want someone to, at a minimum, tell me its not the best way to do it.
    The problem is that it's difficult to tell with someone who is being 'sub-optimal' as opposed to outright bad, AFK or whatever. Sub-optimal is the sort of thing you sort out with a log most times. AFKers don't need advice, they need to be kicked. And if someone is simply not doing well but is obviously trying it's very difficult to do anything about that right then unless you have 20 minutes down time waiting for a tank or something.

    I used to try and help people but I no longer really do. People have their defenses up from the get-go and are usually unwilling to listen to anything that's unsolicited. If someone asks that's different but even then if they ask in instance chat before you can say anything there's usually a volley of "Don't suck" advice which is pointless and any chance one had to do something positive is usually lost. Trying to help someone you're never going to see again in the Raid Finder environment which is either pretty quiet and moving along or entirely messed up and bogged down is just a problem. Those that still make the attempt have my respect but I'm not going to be joining them any time soon.

    I understand that help sometimes happens but I think it rare and the exception rather than the rule for all of the above reasons as well as a dozen others I can think of.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    You tell them that they are wrong and afterwards they can handle their own feelings however they want. The problems start when people start throwing around/replying to personal insults.
    As often as not it's impossible to distinguish the difference between telling someone they are wrong and personal insults. Despite what you wrote this is perfectly obvious and I'm quite sure you're aware of that.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-12-20 at 12:31 AM.
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  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I used to try and help people but I no longer really do. People have their defenses up from the get-go and are usually unwilling to listen to anything that's unsolicited. If someone asks that's different but even then if they ask in instance chat before you can say anything there's usually a volley of "Don't suck" advice which is pointless and any chance one had to do something positive is usually lost. Trying to help someone you're never going to see again in the Raid Finder environment which is either pretty quiet and moving along or entirely messed up and bogged down is just a problem. Those that still make the attempt have my respect but I'm not going to be joining them any time soon.
    For any number of reasons, some people have great trouble realizing this, because THEIR particular case is special.

    "Maybe in most cases, but I'm a very polite person."
    "My information is entirely accurate and that's all it is, information."
    "It's essential to this group that I convey this message to you."
    "You have a responsibility to all of us to listen to me."
    "If you don't listen to me then you're a bad, frankly."
    "You will bond with me once I share this insight with you."
    "I know that you will appreciate my comments because I can see that you already look up to my experience."
    "People always thank me for selflessly spending my time to improve others' gameplay."
    "I understand that most people don't like advice from strangers, but I have something really useful to tell you."

    But as a rule, how it works out is:

    "Who are you? Did I ask for your help? No. Shut up."

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Oh god the irony haha. LFR was introduced because whiny bads were upset there was content not for them. They had content for them and the raiders had content, but these players insisted on more. 4.1 players could have spent their time enjoying the dungeons as raiders did raids, but oh no, there better not be content for somebody else!

    There is nothing elitist about anything you described. LFR has inflated gear requirements even more, not less. Why do you think the cloak is mandatory for many groups? BECAUSE IT IS OBTAINABLE IN THE EASIEST MODE BY THE WORST PLAYERS. Raiders seek to cooperate, not step on others and hope enough dps are paying attention that they can afk. Thats why raiders don't like new players, because new players are less likely to be able to carry their own weight. Why new players cant group with other new players idk, mostly because a group of 10 LFR players isn't willing to do progression raiding, they want to join a 11/14 guild run.
    Or could it be the consequences of sticking together 25 randoms potentially without any raid experience was underestimated.
    LFR did not inflate requirements, players did.
    The game did not decide the requirements had to be higher, it was something players dictated.
    The game does not spontaneously ask for a higher ilvl than that specified in the UI.
    Players do that.

    I will agree the Journal has a lot of room for improvement as a previous poster stated.

    If you want people to get better, then talk to them.
    Shoving up gear requirements does nothing of the sort.
    Achievements rarely prove anything of the capabilities of the individual.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-12-20 at 01:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    i completely agree.... long time tank and now I DPS some just b.c. of how tanking is. I hate "active" mitigation, and tank dps numbers. I liked it when my focus on was generating threat, grabbing adds, boss positioning, and watching out for the big hits. Heck if you had a threat lead you could auto attack and focus on other things if needed, and help direct the raid but now your expected to put up decent numbers, and use some CD's almost every time they are up.
    I honestly don't mind the Active Mitigation system. It's the Vengeance system which turned us into a DPS class that ruined it for me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    sadly you need DPS to enjoy the rest of content.It's discouraging to do questing,farming, rep grinding etc. as a healer or tank if your specialization makes it terribly slower and sometimes even impossible unless overgeared compared to DPS class.
    Which is actually the very reason they invented and implemented Dual-specialization. Besides that, they can still give tanks good damage without it being a necessary part of raiding they just don't want to right now.

  19. #399
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Are you stipulating that the raid MoP tier designs were half-assed at the normal/heroic difficulties? Because that's how they are designed and then LFR is nerfed from there to insure a more-or-less successful experience. As for people AFKing through it, those people--many of whom are quick to call others lazy without a shred of self-awareness--are more the problem than the design ever will be.

    If you believe that the harder difficulties suffered in some way due to LFR, that's an opinion (probably an incorrect one). If you aren't I don't quite see your point. And if you're one of the "WoW should be hard work" crowd, other than telling you that it's a video game I don't have a lot for you. Your 'hard work' and success at the higher difficulties should be a source of self-satisfaction. What others do is really none of your business and I have no idea at all why you and others like yourself think it is.

    Harder difficulties only suffered diminished prestige because of LFR (though I'm sure that did indirectly make the whole raiding scene suffer). My point was, that LFR does not justify raiding as the end game or as the biggest development resource hogger, if for 95% it's merely a quick afk'ed tourist mode and at the same time it diminishes the prestige of the 5%, whom should be some kind of trend setters in WoW.

    What is the definiton of "hard work"? Is regulary playing a sport with my friends or in some team hard work, because to get to play I have to train regularly, think of tactics and otherways I can better myself all the time, stay 100% focused on it when we are playing with set practise and game times. All the while paying some sort of fee for it all, without this fee entitling me to crap.

    And if you prefer to think WoW or MMOs in general more as a world than theme park, then it's obvious that what others do effects my mentality too, and that is why "no work" and success at things of lower difficulty was not enough for the casual crowd, they wanted epics and they wanted to kill raid bosses just because someone else was getting them and doing it, even though it did not affect them at all. You have to remember that in BC model for example, the heroics were suppose to be end game for most, and a lot of resources were used on them while they were totally useless for the raiders, so the "my 15 bucks were not used to design things that I play" argument has worked both ways. And dont get me even started on PvP'ers who are also a major crowd for this game.

    So LFR is bad for the prestige of raiding, hurting prestige of raiding is bad for the game, but having raiding as the only end game is just dumb and lazy.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    There is no "pausing" or "holding your place." Blizzard explains the feature that way but it doesn't/can't possibly work that way.
    What are you talking about? Of course it can work that way. Each LFR has three queues: Tank, Heals, and DPS. Each position in the queues has two states: Available and Paused. When someone is needed for a certain role then the next non-paused player in the queue is removed from the queue(s) for that instance and put into the instance. That player's positions in the other queues are then put into the Paused state. It's not even hard to do, let alone impossible. There's even a formal name for this concept: Priority Queue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Blizzard uses the time spent while inside content as a bonus to artificially advance players who have queued for multiple instances.
    That would be much more complex to implement. The priority queue scheme I outlined above already factors in the time you spent inside content because your position in the queue is established at the time you queue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Blizzard's matchmaking/queuing system is really quite complex and I think pretty versatile and overall amazing.
    If it's that complex they're doing it wrong. Have you actually looked at their source code? You talk as if you actually programmed for them or something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    Harder difficulties only suffered diminished prestige because of LFR (though I'm sure that did indirectly make the whole raiding scene suffer).
    Trust me, whatever "prestige" you thought you had by virtue of completing harder difficulties was all in your mind and in the minds of a few other WoW players like you. Very few who exclusively run LFR ever associated harder difficulties with the word, "prestige." It's kind of hard to diminish what never existed to begin with. Like MoanaLisa said, "'hard work' and success at the higher difficulties should be a source of self-satisfaction." That's it. There's no prestige associated with success in WoW and there never was. If you're pursuing prestige through WoW then you're doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-20 at 04:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

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