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  1. #21
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laplacedemon View Post
    Fixed that for you. There's a difference between "holy is the better healer" and a specific fight where it shines during certain conditions.

    Someone (Amabella from Divinity) also solo-healed Garrosh hc as disc recently btw. Yet it doesn't mean anything in terms of the ageless, stupid fight of "disc vs holy".

    (Sorry for the unnecessary angriness this post comes at btw, that's not intentional but I somehow can't say it without sounding condescending. I just don't think we should include extreme cases in judging spec performances -even if saying that holy doesn't work if you're not Jhazrun is quite stupid indeed.)
    The reason he went holy was because it performs better than disc in terms of raw healing. It's not a hard concept. Disc could only do the same after gearing made it possible.

    Your point is moot since the core of what you are trying to argue against is that "holy could deal with the fight at lower gear levels, but since disc has been able to catch up it can also do it too." That doesn't make for a sound argument. You would do well to accept the reality that both specs are great, but that holy does, indeed, have more "oomph" than disc. In that sense, holy is, indeed, a better healer in the purest sense of the word. You are worrying too much about some debate that I don't personally take part in. I understand both specs have merit and place, and gladly admit disc looks better on certain damage patterns. That isn't to say holy couldn't heal those patterns, and it certainly has no bearing on which spec is "better." Disc excels at what it does (absorbs, effective health, mitigation) and holy excels at raw healing. This really isn't debatable.

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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    The reason he went holy was because it performs better than disc in terms of raw healing. It's not a hard concept. Disc could only do the same after gearing made it possible.
    It's not only that though. Classes like druids and shamans also have that "oomph" in raw healing, yet Jhazrun said that only holy priest would be able to solo heal Garrosh hc at that point because of holy's toolkit fitting the fight better. It's not a hard concept, but it's not the +x k hps holy can pull compared to this, it's the whole package of Renews, BHeals/SoL, 2p PoHs/GHeals, Lightwell&D-Hymn (+Guardian Spirit) and Cascade being answers to everything that particular fight throws at you.

    I'm not debating if holy has more raw healing than disc, that would be incredibly stupid as the majority of disc healing comes from absorbs while holy is all raw heals. But the extreme cases of solo healing Garrosh don't hold any merit, because they don't happen often anyway. From the priests department, I only know 3 people who solo healed that fight... I don't think we shouldn't use extreme cases as our basis when making blanket statements. (That's why I used Amabella solo healing as an example; it doesn't mean anything in the big picture)

  3. #23
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Jhazrun saying that only a holy priest could heal it due to tool kit at that point in time entirely proves my point. Holy is far more versatile and can handle a vast majority of situations, not to mention their heals can be among the highest spikes in hps. Sure, a resto Druid or shaman could definitely put out better numbers in a vacuum (or a fight like H Thok), but would not perform as well with all fights. That's what a holy priest can do. A disc priest is not that flexible, can only "spike" hps via well times spirit shells, which require ramp up time, and even then that loses out on the benefit of direct healing.

    So my point remains that holy is just a better healer in general, while disc is by far the better support healer.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Jhazrun saying that only a holy priest could heal it due to tool kit at that point in time entirely proves my point. Holy is far more versatile and can handle a vast majority of situations, not to mention their heals can be among the highest spikes in hps. Sure, a resto Druid or shaman could definitely put out better numbers in a vacuum (or a fight like H Thok), but would not perform as well with all fights. That's what a holy priest can do. A disc priest is not that flexible, can only "spike" hps via well times spirit shells, which require ramp up time, and even then that loses out on the benefit of direct healing.

    So my point remains that holy is just a better healer in general, while disc is by far the better support healer.
    You write your posts like you have a shrine dedicated to Jhazrun in your home, it's a bit disturbing. You seem to forget or maybe not even know what a disc priest brings to the table during progress. You can't with ease outheal mistakes, but you can mitigate it with shields and THEN heal them up. Without mitigation they're likely to be dead. Any serious 10-man raiding guild (and 25) will have a disc priest in their core.
    In your earlier post you stated that a healers job is to save lives. That's what they do, but then you say
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    So my point remains that holy is just a better healer in general, while disc is by far the better support healer.
    Just because disc is not as good as other specs when solo healing you label them as support healer? That's laughable.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Jhazrun saying that only a holy priest could heal it due to tool kit at that point in time entirely proves my point. Holy is far more versatile and can handle a vast majority of situations, not to mention their heals can be among the highest spikes in hps.
    I quite disagree with this. At that point of time, disc also had enough tools to handle all the bosses too (a bit behind on two healing Malkorok, but that's what resto druids & mistweavers (for 10s at least, where RM is more reliable) are for); there was this one special case where Paragon decided to solo heal because they were getting more reliable results and disc lacked there.

    All of the specs have their short-comings. Especially while undergeared, holy wasn't great on some bosses either. Sha's pretty much a disc fight... I never even thought of going holy on Shamans progress. We needed dps on Spoils. And I still don't get the point of holy on Thok (again, 10s). While it does differ from raid to raid/person to person where which spec works better, there are things holy is/was quite behind on handling vs disc too.

    Basically, I don't think looking at a single fight under certain conditions is much different than looking at specs in a vacuum like you say. Anyways, I don't think we'll reach an agreement on this so I'll just drop it...

  6. #26
    The only thing a Holy Priest has over Disc is CoH, LW, and to a lesser degree DH.

    A Disc Priest has everything a Holy Priest has plus Absorbs on heals, PWS with no cooldown, Spirit Shell, Archangel and if that wasn't enough, Atonement. In fact Atonement alone is so strong it is almost like its own spec.

    The war is over, Disc wins and hence the need for Holy to be redesigned.

  7. #27
    I am positive I could have solo healed Garrosh as disc at 567 item level (Jhazrun's ilevel on Paragon's kill - I was 571.something on our kill) as I was ilevel 568 when we started and throughput was not an issue.

    The issue would not be the healer's gear level, but the additional empowered whirl due to lower damage output from the raid. The most difficult part of the fight as disc is "empowered whirls where you can't spirit shell." With lower raid dps you would get one of those in p2 so you'd pw:s everyone and use an additional raid cd, as whirls where you get a full shell + some pw:s / aegis up essentially do nothing. (See the p3 empowered whirl in our kill video for details: ~6 million in absorbs up before whirl).

    If anyone's curious, there were a couple reasons I played disc instead of holy for Garrosh:
    1) We have a shadow priest / other cloth casters and I passed all the haste gear. I had essentially no spirit haste gear to play serenity / renew holy properly (could barely even reach 13k haste).
    2) The main reason to go holy would be for stronger burst healing cooldowns (hymn and clickable lightwell), but you can put out more preshields than hymn heals for anyways while still spamming heals during the actual damage burst.
    3) I'm a better disc priest than holy priest (not much time raiding as holy) - this is a pretty big deal as even if I did have the gear for holy I may have been better off staying disc.
    4) Free damage!

  8. #28
    I give up. This world is not ready for Holy. They are not worthy.

    Holy priest out, I went disc to save my sanity.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
    I give up. This world is not ready for Holy. They are not worthy.

    Holy priest out, I went disc to save my sanity.
    welcome to the dark side

  10. #30
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    You can say what you want, but most of you here seem to think I'm bashing disc. I'm NOT. Disc does things holy cannot, and holy does things disc cannot. Our PoH hits harder than discs by not a small amount, and our ability to literally reverse damage taken with lightning-quick bomb heals is something disc doesn't do as well. Disc is a stellar support healer and wonderful at what it is designed to do.

    Thick skulls abound. And the jhazrun comment from the random dude above--seriously? I only mentioned him because his guild had a very easy choice between holy and disc, and he chose holy because disc would not have been able to handle it at his raids ilvl. That doesn't take away from disc--not should it--since disc does bring high value to a healing core. It just can't do some things holy can.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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