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  1. #81
    Pit Lord MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The only problem I have with healers is the fact that they can play horribly and get away with playing somewhat effectively. If you're a dps, you cannot play horribly and expect to kill anything. Even mindless classes like Warriors and DK's cannot play horribly or else they won't kill anything and be completely useless. But a bad healer that knows the basics on how to survive can survive with ease against an average player trying to kill them. Healing requires the lowest skill floor in the game but has the highest skill cap. (which is weird)

    It's always been like this and every time the issue is brought up, people always accuse the dps player that "he's bad" while at the same time attacking whatever class he plays.
    This is complete bullshit. Sorry but it is. No healer can play horribly in a competitive enviroment and get away with it. Dpsers can. Especially warriors.
    Epic!

  2. #82
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    This is complete bullshit. Sorry but it is. No healer can play horribly in a competitive enviroment and get away with it. Dpsers can. Especially warriors.
    No I think he's right. Unless I misunderstood something, he's basically just saying that unless dps play well a healer's job is disproportionately easy, and this is true. When it comes to healing, throughput isn't as complex as it is for dps. This means an average player can still put out decent numbers as a healer, and if the dps give them some breathing room by playing suboptimally it's just not that hard to keep up. Healing well is far more about awareness, reading opponents, and allocating cooldowns than pressing the actual healing spells.

    That said, there are a couple dps classes that can put out damage pretty effortlessly too. Look at the damage e.g. a warrior can do just thoughtlessly mashing any combination of ms, overpower, and slam. Like a bad healer he'd have room to better optimize his throughput, but you can get pretty reasonable numbers with an actual skill level of zero.

  3. #83
    Pit Lord MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerdjames View Post
    but you can get pretty reasonable numbers with an actual skill level of zero.
    Sounds like pretty much any dps currently in the game
    Epic!

  4. #84
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    Sounds like pretty much any dps currently in the game
    Why dont you just reply "dont nerf me bro", you'd contribute more to the thread that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    Oh, so you play a warrior and healers are the problem? Your class is the problem.

    Instants: Nobody can cast because of classes like warrior that can you complete lock you out. We CAN'T cast, deal with it. Oh, you're mad that you can't interrupt with your pummel and aoe interrupt. Don't worry! Blizzard made it easy for players like you! Just spec double charge, use fear and if it's not enough, just spec 2 stuns, while tunneling the target and making unhealable dmg. If your teammates are so brainless stupid that they can't even interrupt healers because they have to cast when a warrior is tunneling their cloth squishy partner, just get Grievous weapon. You can make it man.

    CC: Oh god people actually have to CC to kill something. Well okay.

    So, there's something for you OP: Game is in a really bad state right now and it's not because of instants, it's not because if interrupts. It's a circle. There are instant casts because there are interrupts and there are peels and CC because of high melee/caster dmg. You can't remove just one of them, or you make PvP even worse (if it's even possible) than it is right now.

    P.S.: Since you have no idea how PvP works, please don't try to "fix" it.
    I think I have seen this post already.

    1. Attacks me based on the class I play.
    2. Mentions random abilities as if they mean something (NO GOOD WARRIOR IS RUNNING DOUBLE TIME. FFS PEOPLE, IF YOU ARE GOING TO STUPIDLY LIST OUT ABILITIES TO MAKE A POINT AT LEAST GET THEM CORRECT).
    3. Then blames the meta game while failing to see their roles overwhelming contribution to making it that way.

    Yep you can scroll up and find the same cookie cutter response.

    You want less instants, you want less stun and gun bursting people down in CC, then you want healers nerfed!, because the only way the game is even playable right now is because we can CC easily, because we can do ridiculous burst damage into CC, that goes and 3s would become like healer/dps 2s and 2s would time out every time a healer team is there.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  5. #85
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayp View Post
    And that isnt a problem for you? simply standing there and out healing a 4man gank attempt? Sure sounds like healers are balanced to me -_-

    But seriously, unless the dps are in blues or lower any 4 man team following a pve rotation should kill a single player because the damage should simply be to high, if it is not and you can out heal it with ease something needs to be done.
    I'm not saying they're balanced, I'm saying they're fun, from my point of view anyway.

    Healers in World PvP I feel should be powerful, we have generally got to deal with ~4+ people trying to kill us, it's very rarely a 1 v 1, and we have very little DPS throughput, compared to pure DPS classes.

    Allowing us to actually have a chance is a good thing. In Arena, Battlegrounds and Rated Battlegrounds, sure, it can be a pain, but that's where Team Work and dedication come into play. Everyone, even Healers have their weaknesses, so you learn them, and as a team you build tactics around them. In World PvP, it's literally just a clusterfuck of death going on, and I hate the idea of just having to take it because I'm a Healer.

    I've healed some serious shit before, I've out healed (and solo healed) some of the most bad ass bosses of all times. I'm sure not as hell about to be put down by some Alliance scrublord.

  6. #86
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    I'm not saying they're balanced, I'm saying they're fun, from my point of view anyway.

    Healers in World PvP I feel should be powerful, we have generally got to deal with ~4+ people trying to kill us, it's very rarely a 1 v 1, and we have very little DPS throughput, compared to pure DPS classes.

    Allowing us to actually have a chance is a good thing. In Arena, Battlegrounds and Rated Battlegrounds, sure, it can be a pain, but that's where Team Work and dedication come into play. Everyone, even Healers have their weaknesses, so you learn them, and as a team you build tactics around them. In World PvP, it's literally just a clusterfuck of death going on, and I hate the idea of just having to take it because I'm a Healer.

    I've healed some serious shit before, I've out healed (and solo healed) some of the most bad ass bosses of all times. I'm sure not as hell about to be put down by some Alliance scrublord.

    The only tactic to deal with a healer who can outheal 4 dps is to burst someone down in instant CC, which is what high end arena does today, and which is almost universally despised, even by healers who hate getting gunned down in the stun but wont admit being able to outheal 2+ dps is a problem.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  7. #87
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    The only tactic to deal with a healer who can outheal 4 dps is to burst someone down in instant CC, which is what high end arena does today, and which is almost universally despised, even by healers who hate getting gunned down in the stun but wont admit being able to outheal 2+ dps is a problem.
    Being able to out-heal 2 DPS isn't a problem because that is what we face day to day. You'll rarely (if ever) find a situation where a Healer is put up against a DPS. When it does happen, chances are the DPS will give up, but at least they can win, most Healers (Mistweavers, as an exception), rarely do any decent throughput outside of their huge cooldowns.

    Healing is all about being able to handle the damage coming in, and when you have a 3 v 3 game, you need to have it so Healers can handle more then one DPS. Unless you're happy with the game being entirely balanced around 1 v 1, which I can assure you will be vile and catastrophic, Healers are generally going to be this way for a long time.

    I agree, a DPS should be able to take down a Healer, but in 1 v 1, I disagree. It should take ~3 DPS to kill a Healer, that's our job, to Heal. If you make it possible that it can be countered by a single person, what value does a Healer bring to the team?

    Also, remember, out of 100% of the playerbase, how many are Healers? All combat is based around 70% DPS, 20% Healers & 10% Tanks (Generally speaking (Dungeons, 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS, Raids 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 6 DPS, etc...)), that 20% needs to be able to sustain that 70%, otherwise they're worthless.

  8. #88
    Bloodsail Admiral Ironjaws-Mike's Avatar
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    The game isn't balanced around 1v1. And healers do die if they play bad. I can assure you that most people here would kill me as a healer since I'm really bad at it. :I And honestly, DPS is even worse, many of them do insane damage AND insane healing lol.
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  9. #89
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    Being able to out-heal 2 DPS isn't a problem because that is what we face day to day. You'll rarely (if ever) find a situation where a Healer is put up against a DPS. When it does happen, chances are the DPS will give up, but at least they can win, most Healers (Mistweavers, as an exception), rarely do any decent throughput outside of their huge cooldowns.

    Healing is all about being able to handle the damage coming in, and when you have a 3 v 3 game, you need to have it so Healers can handle more then one DPS. Unless you're happy with the game being entirely balanced around 1 v 1, which I can assure you will be vile and catastrophic, Healers are generally going to be this way for a long time.

    I agree, a DPS should be able to take down a Healer, but in 1 v 1, I disagree. It should take ~3 DPS to kill a Healer, that's our job, to Heal. If you make it possible that it can be countered by a single person, what value does a Healer bring to the team?

    Also, remember, out of 100% of the playerbase, how many are Healers? All combat is based around 70% DPS, 20% Healers & 10% Tanks (Generally speaking (Dungeons, 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS, Raids 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 6 DPS, etc...)), that 20% needs to be able to sustain that 70%, otherwise they're worthless.
    Did he really just try and make the argument healers need to be able to push out more healing then multiple dps because of raid make up? I am really seeing this? I have seen some far out there arguments before, but dayum.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  10. #90
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Did he really just try and make the argument healers need to be able to push out more healing then multiple dps because of raid make up? I am really seeing this? I have seen some far out there arguments before, but dayum.
    Are you seriously incapable of seeing the major flaw of having 1 DPS able to take down 1 Healer? What value will a Healer bring then? If you can't forsee that as an issue, we're done with this discussion.

  11. #91
    The Patient Arthrun's Avatar
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    Why nerf the healers that are keeping you alive? Ain't that kinda stupid?
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  12. #92
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    Are you seriously incapable of seeing the major flaw of having 1 DPS able to take down 1 Healer? What value will a Healer bring then? If you can't forsee that as an issue, we're done with this discussion.
    There was no major flaw to it in TBC and Wrath when it was very hard but doable, as opposed to now when its just a joke as the healer easily dwarfs dps output and never ooms .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthrun View Post
    Why nerf the healers that are keeping you alive? Ain't that kinda stupid?
    They are also keeping my enemy alive, DUH.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  13. #93
    This is so dps biased, its like u're screaming "boost me bro".

    Let's start from the beginning:

    Dps are dealing to much damage --> need stronger heals --> heals are strong, need way to stop them: more CCs --> heals have to be even stronger to sustain the frequent shut downs: instant heals improved, casted heals become huge --> need more damage --> damage need to be stpped: more defenive CD and escaping tools --> need more CC! ---> too much damage outside defensive's : need even mre heals! -->and so on...

    This is not a DPS issue: Arenas are frustrating for healers because of the many CCs chains; melee trains can't let u get a single cast: DPS arena can be frustrating, u played as good as u could with CCs silences and interrupts but a single heal passed ---> kill target topped off; several minutes of arena wasted.

    There are a lot of things to tune down TOGETHER with healing: reduce instant CCs, spellocks/silences. Reduce DPS OFF HEALS, reduce burst damage.

    Untill then JUST U PRAY things do not change else u would be here whining because arenas are just a matter of stacking offensive CD and blowing off the first thing in range.

  14. #94
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    because arenas are just a matter of stacking offensive CD and blowing off the first thing in range.
    That is exactly what arena is right now. Its just waiting for CDs to come up, hitting your instant CC buttons and hoping you force enough CDs from them that you can get a kill next time they are up.

    Why because everything between the cooldowns ceased to matter when healers were given the throughput to cancel out the dps and the mana regen to never oom.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  15. #95
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    There was no major flaw to it in TBC and Wrath
    On the contrary, for it to work in TBC the healer had to be really OP in other ways to make up for the fact that it was so flawed. You needed things like resto druids in TBC otherwise a rogue would curb stomp your healer in seconds. In fact, that's what really pushed us in this direction in the first place. You're arguing that burst and cc is out of control because healers became too hard to kill, but your solution is to go back to the design that pushed us to make healers harder to kill. That's just going to repeat the cycle. I agree that there are problems, but you don't know how to solve them.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    That is exactly what arena is right now. Its just waiting for CDs to come up, hitting your instant CC buttons and hoping you force enough CDs from them that you can get a kill next time they are up.

    Why because everything between the cooldowns ceased to matter when healers were given the throughput to cancel out the dps and the mana regen to never oom.
    no everything outside of cds dont' matter because that is how the classes where designed around for mop, has nothing to do with healers.
    Stormspellz -mugthol
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  17. #97
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    no everything outside of cds dont' matter because that is how the classes where designed around for mop, has nothing to do with healers.
    Can someone translate this? So healers making sustained damage pointless has nothing to do with healers, its how the classes were designed for mop... WTF.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Exaelitus View Post
    On the contrary, for it to work in TBC the healer had to be really OP in other ways to make up for the fact that it was so flawed. You needed things like resto druids in TBC otherwise a rogue would curb stomp your healer in seconds. In fact, that's what really pushed us in this direction in the first place. You're arguing that burst and cc is out of control because healers became too hard to kill, but your solution is to go back to the design that pushed us to make healers harder to kill. That's just going to repeat the cycle. I agree that there are problems, but you don't know how to solve them.
    Name the ways they had to be OP? We have resto druids now, they have pretty much everything they had in TBC, + a lot more, and they can outheal the sustained damage of mulitple dps, which they couldnt do in TBC.

    And what is this cycle argument? If Blizzard makes healing throughput more evenly matched with DPS they will somehow enter a cycle of buffing up healers? The design did not push healers to be hard to kill, the developers pushed that, and the developers dont have to again.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  18. #98
    I've long thought that there needs to be a lot more stamina in pvp and a bit less spirit. The idea being to create a situation where someone at less that 100% health isn't in danger of immediate death. Let winning be slow.

  19. #99
    Pit Lord MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Why dont you just reply "dont nerf me bro"
    Sounds like something you would say
    Epic!

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    That is exactly what arena is right now. Its just waiting for CDs to come up, hitting your instant CC buttons and hoping you force enough CDs from them that you can get a kill next time they are up.

    Why because everything between the cooldowns ceased to matter when healers were given the throughput to cancel out the dps and the mana regen to never oom.
    N it is not, u said it urself:

    hitting your instant CC buttons

    hoping you force enough CDs from them

    you can get a kill next time they are up

    You broke down all the 4 problems:
    - too many instants that can be almost mindlessy chained
    - too many way-too-strong defensives
    - Not enough kill-windows: too much reliance on burst driven by OP offensive CDs.
    - Too much healing to compensate the 3 above.

    Let's remove the healing and here's ur arenas:

    Mage + war VS Mage + war
    2x Mage + War + vs 2x Mage + War.

    TOTALLY BETTER.

    No, clearly, Healers alone is not the issue; seriously, this is so obvious i feel a moron even discussing it.

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