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  1. #101
    Dreadlord Teebone's Avatar
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    -snip-

    Infracted
    Last edited by Nicola; 2013-12-24 at 02:57 PM.

  2. #102
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Can someone translate this? So healers making sustained damage pointless has nothing to do with healers, its how the classes were designed for mop... WTF.
    Just think about it for a minute. Cataclysm and Pandaria both added many active throughput cooldowns, and now everything is tuned around that. When someone stacks 3-5 cooldowns and temporarily triples (or more) their damage, it still has to be possible to deal with it. So, if three times your sustained throughput can be handled, how do you propose it be possible for your standard damage to be threatening? You might want to give healers the same cooldown reliance, but I doubt it would work out cleanly since different dps have different cooldown lengths and values. You'd have to restructure and balance every dps and healer on an absolute razor edge, and that's not a realistic expectation. On top of that, healers are already the hardest thing to play at high competitive levels and unforgiving cooldown reliance like that would make it even tougher. It would be a lot easier to just lessen the value of cooldowns for dps or remove some (or all) of them. To go back to an intersting game pace like BC had, damage cooldowns have to be as minimal as they were back then.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by MrApple View Post
    Sounds like pretty much any dps currently in the game
    Healers can get away with sloppy play while melee cleaving but as melee healer ranged they have to pull their own weight.
    Last edited by worstpvperus; 2013-12-24 at 06:43 AM.

  4. #104
    Warchief MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worstpvperus View Post
    Healers can get away with sloppy play while melee cleaving but as melee healer ranged they have to pull their own weight.
    I dont know if its because i just woke up but that just doesnt make any sense to me.
    Epic!

  5. #105
    Dreadlord Teebone's Avatar
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    If he's so envious of healer's ability to survive, why not make one of his own? Or.. is he too lazy?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Teebone View Post
    If he's so envious of healer's ability to survive, why not make one of his own? Or.. is he too lazy?
    there is nothing to envy. there is more of a concern that the PVP is less fun, than it would be if sustained damage mattered more and cooldowns less and healing was less.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  7. #107
    I am Murloc! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    N it is not, u said it urself:

    hitting your instant CC buttons

    hoping you force enough CDs from them

    you can get a kill next time they are up

    You broke down all the 4 problems:
    - too many instants that can be almost mindlessy chained
    - too many way-too-strong defensives
    - Not enough kill-windows: too much reliance on burst driven by OP offensive CDs.
    - Too much healing to compensate the 3 above.

    Let's remove the healing and here's ur arenas:

    Mage + war VS Mage + war
    2x Mage + War + vs 2x Mage + War.

    TOTALLY BETTER.

    No, clearly, Healers alone is not the issue; seriously, this is so obvious i feel a moron even discussing it.
    You do not need healing throughput to deal with DPS burst Cooldowns, you need healing Cooldowns, CC, and defensive abilities. Which healers have. Warrior pops reck or Rogue hits Shadow Dance or Shaman pops Ascendance, you dont need to be able to out heal that damage that you can is asinine, what you need to be able to do is mitigate it, like using roar/Clone/Root, NS Unleash, Healing Tide, Tree, Hand of Protection, Monk Bubble... Healers have cooldowns to counter dps cooldowns, healers have CC to counter DPS CC, and you have partners to help as well.

    Healers do not need to be able to out heal burst cooldowns, that is beyond broken. You reduce healing throughput to a good level, you reduce the amount of instant CC, and you get an RMP vs WLD match where the health bars go down and up at a gradual pace, where healers can fall behind, where sustained damage matters, and where people dont expect to always lose while in a CC.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    I don't know if I am going off topic, but my impression is that it is extremely easier to master a DPS role than a healer role.

    I've partnered up with great DPS players randomly looking in trade, but it's 10 times harder to find a decent healer.
    Also I don't know if it's just me, but I notice that (enemy) healers tend to make the most mistakes in arenas.

    Could it be that either healers are hard to master, or healers don't appeal to a wide audience that blizzard is FORCED to make them overpowered just to get the game going?
    i see that the other way around. Healers are extremely easy to play and have success with, dds are hard to master in the arena, most don't know about timing their offensive and defensive cds, and how they should move and stand in the arena. Most don't know how and when to burst, most do not know how to use their cc proberly, besides some healers simply won't die without enough pressure, cc and burst combined.

    it might depend on the bracket and comb though. in 2s and rbgs its save to say healers are not only overpowered but extremely easy to play and master. while this might not be the case with 3s. The exception is boring cleave with 1 dd and 2 heals. the dd has a lot of pressure to land a kill... he won't die easily, but he will get peeled and cc'ed 24/7, never landing a kill that way in a sane period of time. a bit similar to 2s with a healer on each side, not even sure if boring cleave is any viable in mop as healers really got overpowered hard.

    About the Topic:

    I'd say they should go oom and lose most of their cc. I wouldn't mind to remove them from pvp(arenas, bgs) completely similar what happened with tanks. Its just better for this game. pure dd specs should be allowed to heal the same amount with BF debuff as hybrids do, and hybrids only benefit is to heal others, but not more - and since this is a pretty limited heal on average the pvp expierence will be far better and dmg, debuffs as well as cc won't get neutralized in mindless overheals by mulitple dedicated healers, instead, all players have to use their defensive cds and peels to survive incoming burst and kill attempts. Exactly as in BC, and this is the main reasion why BC PvP was simply the best, yet.

    no healers is just sad for some classes that have only 1 dd spec, like ret and spriest. Its sweet irony, that these are the underdog specs right now in arenas.

    btw, look at the items that you get on the timless isle. Some reduce pvp healing by 90% for a short period of time...seems even blizz knows healers are a problem, but companies usually won't admit their fails in public.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    "Complain somewhere else", "thats just silly not reading", "anecdotal observations that fail to make any point", "Its an ARMS RACE! so you cant nerf X because Y!..." I could make the thread about anything and get those same responses.

    And yet people should be talking about how healing has negatively changed PVP. Healing throughput is so high sustained damage has become meaningless in this game. The days where you can overwhelm a good healer are gone and we are stuck playing a game of stun and gun. I can't remember an Arena or BG where we could actually move a health bar down and not see it topped back up without a long CC chain on a healer. Even with full burst CDs, if the healer is active the health bar won't budge.

    The game should be more then just chaining CCs and burst CDs together until someone doesn't have a trinket or immunity. But that is all it has become, as sustained damage has fallen behind healing output, and mana is seemingly an infinite resource for most healers.

    It makes 3s one dimensional, CC---->Burst, Survive until stars align again.
    It makes 2v2 take forever.
    It makes for horrible balancing in bgs, world pvp, and 1v1. Got 3 healers in your random compared to 1 on the other side, congrats on the win. Actually expected to have a chance at killing that terribly played Resto Druid, nope sorry you can't ever, no chance at all...

    PvP will be a lot more fun if Healing was half what is today, alongside stripping out CC and burst Chains. I want the game to go back to where what you did between burst CDs actually mattered; it didnt all just get washed away by an infinite tide of healing from an ocean of mana.
    well, talking about sustained dmg, there is a reasion why the dk is last place in arena representation, he has only that and not quite enough cc and burst to play this stun and gun game. But since you obviously play a warrior, i wonder whats the problem?

    i switched to an old rogue main lvld him to 90s and did some pvp and i become an unstopple cc machine deciding games on his own, without any gear, exactly like in bc, wrath and cata, too.

    i just think specs that are slow and have almost no cc should be harder to kill, instead we get specs that got high mobility, heals and tons of cc and burst all-in-one wonders.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-12-28 at 05:49 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    there is nothing to envy. there is more of a concern that the PVP is less fun, than it would be if sustained damage mattered more and cooldowns less and healing was less.
    Adds to the lopsided battles more like it;

    If you have a 15 vs 15, and one team with two heals vs one team with no heals then consider it takes 3-4 dps to kill a healer in a timley manner that means 1 heal is equal 3-4 dps thus it is really more like 19-21 vs 15 and an auto-win for the team with heals.

    Healers can even one on one a weak-self healing dps class like a Hunter over time simply by weaving in a little dps to their rotation while easily out healing theirs, no excuse for that.

  10. #110
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Adds to the lopsided battles more like it;

    If you have a 15 vs 15, and one team with two heals vs one team with no heals then consider it takes 3-4 dps to kill a healer in a timley manner that means 1 heal is equal 3-4 dps thus it is really more like 19-21 vs 15 and an auto-win for the team with heals.

    Healers can even one on one a weak-self healing dps class like a Hunter over time simply by weaving in a little dps to their rotation while easily out healing theirs, no excuse for that.
    Yet in your own example all you would have to do is spam instant cc on the enemy healers and zerg rush down as many peeling dps as possible. That's why any numbers larger than 3v3 in the current iteration of this game are pointless, because it simply adds too many variables to even hold a semblance of balance, especially considering the idiotic developers of this game are trying to balance for such a huge range of pvp platforms AND pve.

    On topic, healers are op, dps are op. Healers outlive all of my burst, dps out damage all of my heals. It's the same argument that's been facilitated since the iteration of arena, or hell, even pvp itself. One thing is certain however, with the amount of CC and instant cast abilities (both for dps AND healers) in the game currently, as well as pvp and pve not being separate platforms, I can guarantee you will never see the light of balance in this game.

    They -could- very well and easily balance it, but they would rather save something like that for an expansion kicker to use as a marketing ploy as to attract to the pvp consumer crowd. Much like item squish and "cc reductions" in WoD, which could have been done 2 content patches ago. They would rather force us to wait for an expansion simply because they can tack those "features" onto the expansions "List of epic changes", despite them being developed months ago.
    Last edited by Manabomb; 2013-12-28 at 02:04 PM.
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltius View Post
    Adds to the lopsided battles more like it;

    If you have a 15 vs 15, and one team with two heals vs one team with no heals then consider it takes 3-4 dps to kill a healer in a timley manner that means 1 heal is equal 3-4 dps thus it is really more like 19-21 vs 15 and an auto-win for the team with heals.

    Healers can even one on one a weak-self healing dps class like a Hunter over time simply by weaving in a little dps to their rotation while easily out healing theirs, no excuse for that.
    and yet i've won countless bgs with no healers and lost countless bgs with healers vs none.
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  12. #112
    First of all, I apologize if my post does not make sense in some areas, it's early and I cannot sleep.

    Healers in general do not need to be nerfed, some of the healing specs and abilities do. When you point out instant-spammable-healing, OP, I think of healing spheres; a very powerful and unbalanced healing spell. But, IMO, monks need it because all their healing is channel based and easily interrupted.

    If you wanted to nerf all healers in PvP, you would also need to nerf DPS, instant CC (primarily blanket silences), and cooldowns. The issue with making healers cast most of their spells is that it would render them completely useless against most opponents, as we have seen with shadow priests. You cannot simply nerf one side of the problem, you have to nerf both.

    IMHO, I feel instant healing should be weaker than casted healing, because spending 3 seconds to cat a heal should yield more reward than a one gcd heal. But the issue with that is that it would obliterate any healing balance in PvE, where healers aren't being trained or focused. Or, it could be implemented as a healing set bonus tacked onto PvP gear.
    Instant healing reduced by blah. Casted healing increased by blah. And then have a seperation of PvP Power for instant and casted healing; obviously casted healing would scale more. Of course, this could be a more complicated solution than simply reducing the amount of instant damage and healing, and buffing casted damage and healing.

    But, if casters take this hit, then melee would have to be nerfed too. Their instant damage would have to be reduced, and so would their interrupts.

    -----------------------
    I hate when people say healers ruin everything. They don't. They raise the skill floor and actually make you have to use strategy and be tactful to defeat opponents who have a healer; instead of seeing a DPS and then popping all CDs and globaling them.
    If a healer could not sustain themselves, then they certainly would not be able to sustain another person. Simple logic, it's not a BS counter argument. All you would need to do to best a team with a healer is have one person stay on the healer while the rest go crazy. Boring.

    I love healing, but I hate it when the only thing I can do is instant's because 2 melee are on me, or because one warrior with disrupting shout can make me unable to cast anything.
    ------------------

    OP, you say you hate how healer CDs negate DPS CDs. Well, I hate how most DPS barely have to set up any of their burst and push one button and expect everything to die. (Rets, Ferals (to an extent), combat rogues (to an extent) have to plan their burst.) This CD issue was more prevalent in MoP, IMO, and is the core problem with PvP ATM.
    ----------------------
    But back to my view on the topic. If you want instant healing nerfed, fine; but to do so, everything else needs to be balanced around that concept. Healers do not need to be removed from PvP, and their defense does not need to be neutered; all casters just need to do exactly what they are called: cast spells and not spamlance/spamfire/pyrospam, etc. And melee/instant CC would have to be adjusted accordingly.

    Again, I apologize if some, or all, of this post does not make any sense; it is early and I cannot sleep.
    Last edited by Umbralight; 2013-12-31 at 07:41 AM.

  13. #113
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbralight View Post
    IMHO, I feel instant healing should be weaker than casted healing, because spending 3 seconds to cat a heal should yield more reward than a one gcd heal. But the issue with that is that it would obliterate any healing balance in PvE, where healers aren't being trained or focused. Or, it could be implemented as a healing set bonus tacked onto PvP gear.
    The issue is interrupts would be too strong if they landed, or not strong enough when missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Umbralight View Post
    But, if casters take this hit, then melee would have to be nerfed too. Their instant damage would have to be reduced, and so would their interrupts.
    You'd have to vastly reduce interrupts, increase their CD's, reduce lockout durations, and make more "interrupt protection." Hardly a bargain.

  14. #114
    Over 9000! apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The issue is interrupts would be too strong if they landed, or not strong enough when missed.
    I think they should reduce instant spell damage by 50% but also reduce healing from instants by 25% but replace blanket silences with instant sielnces and reduce the cd of them by half. It stops all the instant damage, reduces healing damage, fixes the blanket silence problem and forces healers to cast. ALso it would make you want to pair up with someone that has a interrupt.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    I personally would like to see that they remove the auto healing stuff like healing stream, the monk statue, the resto mushrooms, the hpriest lightwell, ... are removed from pvp, along with any healing ability from pure dps specs (second wind, conversion, ember tap, temp shield, spirit bond, etc etc) and nerf the healing from hybrids (increase mana cost with decreased output).
    Requires another Warlock Re-Design, because we pay for a load of abilities with Health. Then again at this point I'd rather see Warlocks not use Mana anymore at all and just use Health.

  16. #116
    nerf mana regen already for healing and DPS.

    Don't care if healer are godmode 1v3npneverdie, make them ran out of mana faster.

    mana for dps? what that blue bar?

  17. #117
    i agree with poster, pvp sucks now. heals are overwhelmingly powerful

  18. #118
    Brewmaster Naztrak's Avatar
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    I think healers are fine. Hell, I think the 2v2 dps only team is more viable then a healer/dps. There, I said it.
    PvE is a minigame // Rerolled from affly to spriest after 8 years, thx pandaland changes

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