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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin View Post
    First of all, you can write only about your expirience and if your expirience that level 90 talents are ok, it's all right. Second, I don't think an argument 'other classes have version of that mechanic so we should have too, but much more complicated and restricting' works very well for me
    "All these classes have to maintain buffs/ debuffs, but please don't bother us mages with such nonsense" is so much worse as an argument against those talents.

    It's a core class mechanic to add a little bit complexity to the gameplay. And yes, the "restricting" part was the problem.


    As to why those talents made in to the live server, i don't know. Nobody outside of Blizzard can answer that question. It might just be as easy as "The flaws were not as apparent during general gameplay, so the majority of the beta testers deemed them "fine" and only a minority, that used them in a raid setting, saw the problem".

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Was one of the main people posting about and testing Brewmaster and Hunter concerns during the MoP beta. It was ridiculously frustrating for every thread about an actual mechanic change (good or bad,) or balancing inquiry, there were 9 more people flooding the forum with "do I get to keep mah stuff?" or petitions for them to fire developers because the game was "buggy" or because they didn't like a change..
    Argh this is maybe one of the big factors that makes feedback an class changes so difficult. There is also a large community that constantly want that one spell back or want changes that homogenize stuff further in one class as in overall. Maybe we should have a seperate topic for this and talk about how we feel about changes and letting go of spells and what the reasonings is for both sides? I'm not sure if it will be effective since I beleive a large part of this community are irregular posters but it's worht a try.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wasn't active during MoP beta because of separate EU/US forums and didn’t have access until really late (in hindsight I could have just done that 1 year subscription :P)

    But I was extremely active during Cataclysm beta and one thing that was noticeable was the thriving community of theory crafters for mages, probably better than any other class. It was just insane how much formulating was done. This community had a lot of influence and had its advantages like making sure the mage was competitive. In hindsight it also had consequences in what direction Blizzard took the mage that also effected MoP.

    It's hard to describe but I think the influences it had on the design for the mage was more focused on making it more "conceptual interesting" and slight iteration on how it already worked as well as making it more complex. It's also why mages don't have much movement dps because it's interesting on how to optimize your dps by moving as little as possible and lvl 90 only made this bigger. There was no voice made for a clean design and making it fun in other aspects. I hope with this next expansion the focus on the mage is fun instead of interesting.

    With the amazing dps balancing blizzard has done I also think that the old mindset doesn’t work anymore. You can add further complexion to the spec but that means the spec will be balanced around being able to do that complexion compared to a cleaner spec. This will result in anyone not being able to handle this complexion to be weaker than simpler specs.

  3. #43
    So let me get this right, the fate of the mage class is in the hands of a guy who only runs flex on a lower than average ilvl character and has no heroic experiance/ never clears ANY form of content.

    /reroll lock
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    I really don't see anything wrong with playing what you enjoy. Be it Frost, Fire, Arcane or Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

  4. #44
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salystra View Post
    So let me get this right, the fate of the mage class is in the hands of a guy who only runs flex on a lower than average ilvl character and has no heroic experiance/ never clears ANY form of content.

    /reroll lock
    That's so far from true.

  5. #45
    Which part Akraen I'm only going on basis that Liv's character [ http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ivera/advanced ] is the one they play and that achievements are "cross account" if they don't have that enabled however and they main another characters in my eyes makes it worse?

    At below post: No you're right one mage isn't to blame BUT if things are being filtered and passed as "fine" by a lead person in the community for the most part people will go with the respected even when against the majority.
    Last edited by Salystra; 2013-12-23 at 03:57 PM. Reason: ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    I really don't see anything wrong with playing what you enjoy. Be it Frost, Fire, Arcane or Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

  6. #46
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    I don't think Lhivera can be scape-goated for what went wrong. There MAY have been an echo chamber effect where a Mage they respected was providing them feedback they wished to hear but if anything went wrong with out class, and it has, it is the responsibility of the devs.

  7. #47
    Field Marshal ZombiexCat's Avatar
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    Moving arcane mage. Since it wasn't in, that's whats wrong lol

  8. #48
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salystra View Post
    Which part Akraen I'm only going on basis that Liv's character [ http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ivera/advanced ] is the one they play and that achievements are "cross account" if they don't have that enabled however and they main another characters in my eyes makes it worse?
    Lhivera isn't a dev. Lhivera didn't have any final say in anything. He's not your scapegoat.

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
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    I feel like GC had said that Mages, Hunters, and Rogues were in for the biggest changes come next expansion did he not? Albeit none of them will be as drastic as the warlock remake. Maybe all will be better then, just have to wait and see.

  10. #50
    Lhivera was one the very few doing serious theorycrafting in the MoP beta, and put in a lot of time and effort to maintain and update Simcraft code and profiles. It was thanks to those efforts that we knew, for example, about Fire's severe scaling issues back in early beta - Blizzard just chose to ignore it.

    He makes frequent errors actually, but is more diligent about mage theorycrafting than pretty much anyone. Do your own superior theorycrafting before you complain about his efforts.

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    Lhivera was one the very few doing serious theorycrafting in the MoP beta, and put in a lot of time and effort to maintain and update Simcraft code and profiles. It was thanks to those efforts that we knew, for example, about Fire's severe scaling issues back in early beta - Blizzard just chose to ignore it.

    He makes frequent errors actually, but is more diligent about mage theorycrafting than pretty much anyone. Do your own superior theorycrafting before you complain about his efforts.
    That's laughable, given how bad Simcraft has been for mages this entire expansion. There's better theorycrafting on nearly every in depth guide on this forum than Lhivera did - let alone the complete lack of high end gameplay which means he had/has little feel for what playing a mage actually entails for most of us.

  12. #52
    Honestly the biggest culprits are the bomb talent tier and obviously the 90 talent tier. Those shouldn't have made it out of beta period. I knew that they were horrible when I saw them previewed at Blizzcon long before beta btw, and yet they still made it live.

  13. #53
    Beta - if I had to tag the largest issue with Beta it would be adding the new monk class. It was more important to Blizzard to have that class tested thru all levels than worry on level 90 talent testing, so we never got pre-mades. To actually test 90 talents you had to reach 90. On top of which the community had already took a dump on Blizzards original 90 talents; which they did respond to by creating the current 90 talents. Yes as hard as it is to believe, Blizzard fucked up TWICE on mage 90 talents in Beta.

    Once we hit 90, there was ample threads stating the obvious about 90 talents, which were summarily ignored. Personally I believe in great part from Lhivera's math... The issue with these shitty 90 talents was never the math, it was always how they impact play style and the god damn requirement you run about 80% uptime just to have DPS that competes with other DPS classes who have no such maintenance requirements.

    ***************************************************

    No maintenance toons

    My rogue gets SnD up once, then using a finishing move maintains SnD - that is great design

    My Destro Warlock builds Embers which I then choose how to use - again great game design

    My Shadow Priest build Orbs which I then choose how to use - same as my warlock

    *********************************************

    maintenance toons

    My Ret Paladin builds Holy Power to refresh Inquisition

    My Feral Druid uses combos to keep up Savage Roar - same concept as paladin

    My Mage has to Evo once a minute

    ****************************************

    They do NOT need to make us maintain a buff to add depth to the game play.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    Lhivera was one the very few doing serious theorycrafting in the MoP beta, and put in a lot of time and effort to maintain and update Simcraft code and profiles. It was thanks to those efforts that we knew, for example, about Fire's severe scaling issues back in early beta - Blizzard just chose to ignore it..
    Tbh Fire's scaling problems were more than obvious right from the start.. Spamming Pyro did more dps than Fireball on Beta and all they did was a nerf to Pyro's base and add the "HS buff" which left the relative power of insta Pyro's the same.. It was quite clear for everybody who could do some simple math, that Fire would scale like nuts in MoP.

    Also I would please ask for people not to speak about Lhivera's involvement of Beta anymore. Flaming anyone on these forums is not allowed.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Tbh Fire's scaling problems were more than obvious right from the start.. Spamming Pyro did more dps than Fireball on Beta and all they did was a nerf to Pyro's base and add the "HS buff" which left the relative power of insta Pyro's the same.. It was quite clear for everybody who could do some simple math, that Fire would scale like nuts in MoP.
    Yep. It seems to me that partially Mages are the victims of the talent revamp and maybe neglect (GC's traditional "we think Mages are fine", although he said it mostly in Cata and LK). Talent system change was very time consuming and once developers did something, then only used quick and dumb fixes to balance damage and rotation: Pyro nerf-buff you wrote about, Critical Mass almost every major patch, Bombs buff, constant Combustion changes and nerfs, Arcane Charges mechanic changes, etc.). That's why I'm not really sure our feedback had that much of a role in that process. Maybe if we did live demonstration in front of the Blizz headquarters they would notice us. Other then that I'm not sure.

  16. #56
    Edit : Just read mod message
    Edit2: Mages gameplay wise may not be fun but their dps has never been 'bad' this expansion. I remember sha of fear Progress mages were the only class that could compete with warlocks for top damage. In ToT and SOO they have been 'decent' dps, but not the highest.
    Last edited by Chrispotter; 2013-12-23 at 08:07 PM.
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  17. #57
    I am Murloc! Phookah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Rune was all about good placement, IW was about timing, Evo was all about....something I'm sure.
    Evo was about your ability to push a button once every 60 seconds

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Lhivera isn't a dev. Lhivera didn't have any final say in anything. He's not your scapegoat.
    No, but he certainly seems to be a little bird chirping in blizzards ear and at the very least helping steer the direction of the class.
    Of course its ultimately the developers fault, but you can't help but feel a little sore at the guy.
    He's like that guy at work who's good friends with the boss, and suggests to him that they should switch to de-caf in the break room.
    Was it his fault they switched? No, only the boss has control over that but he certainly did influence the decision.
    (Excuse my poor syntax/wording, I'm terrible at translating my thoughts to text)

  18. #58
    Last warning, No Lhivera talk anymore.

  19. #59
    Compared to the start of cata, I would to agree with voltaa about mana mostly be a nonissue for fire/frost. Also, blizzard has said they don't care about long term balance as they generally balance one tier at a time and nerf as needed. See fire as experience of this, I actually had more crit going into MSV in blues then I did in full heroic gear going in throne of thunder.
    Last edited by Henzington; 2013-12-23 at 11:02 PM.

  20. #60
    Old God Swizzle's Avatar
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    I'm putting the final word in here, since this thread is more annoying to read than a Dan Brown novel transposed by a five year old.

    There was no singular cause FROM THE PREVIOUS BETA that led to the problem Mages had this entire expansion. The problems can be answered by people who were in the beta, but it seems everyone here decided to chime in their two cents, regardless of their own personal beta experience. What does that do for discussion? Nothing, you're just adding rampant assumptions to a community that's not entirely sure of where it wants itself to go.

    If you did not participate in the previous beta, your posts in here should have been limited to asking questions of those who did, and seeing what they said, not telling us who participated what we did wrong.

    Whatever delusion you may have in your own mind about the influence a single player has on game development, you have to get it in that same head that HE IS ONE PERSON. Does Blizzard listen to what he says? You bet! Why? Because he is more coherent and knowledgable about game and Mage mechanics than most posters here or on the official forums. Hell, he knows more about Mages than I do. If you choose to blame Lhivera for everything that's ever happened to Mages, then feel free; it's your life. All I implore you to do is actually argue that fact like a god damned grown up and not just tossing out, "HE HAS NOES HEROICS EXPERIENCE" over and over. Know who else doesn't? A metric shit ton of the developers who code this game. If you left decision making up to only heroic raiders, this game would suck horrendously, as has been pointed out time and time again by Blizzard and even posters here (just stroll through any suggestion thread here, find a post by a heroic raider, and question the validity of their statements).

    If you want to change things, then you better learn to communicate. Not just for the sake of your in game pixels, but your actual life as well. If you're talking to a child, talk to them as if they were a child. If you're talking to your wife, then god damn it treat her like your wife. Lastly, if you're talking to a freaking game developer who spends eons of his life looking at numbers, then you better come at him with verifiable data, replicable tests, and some god damned numbers.

    That is all.
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