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  1. #1

    Survival Hunter Feedback :)

    Hey everyone

    I'm writing this post in hope for some feedback on my girlfriends Hunter! She's definitely a skilled Hunter, however, she feels as if her DPS is lower then it should be when she compares herself to other Hunters, so I was hoping for a little feedback and / or advice so she could get it a little higher for when we get back into our heroic progression after this Christmas break.

    I know personally that her DPS is good for a hunter, but she wants to be better then good and likes to do the best she can (hence this thread!) So all feedback will be greatly appreciated.

    One of the other things also is that our overall raid DPS is quite low to say the least considering everyone's gear and heroic experience, so we're trying to get feedback to help everyone improve ready for when we get back started and hopefully with a fresh start! This has given her more ambition on wanting to do better also.


    So, any tips you can give, we're all ears!

    Her Armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...mises/advanced

    Our logs (shows our calendar) - http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/271528/


    I do have 2 notes i'd like to add though..!

    1 - Iron Juggernaut - We stay away from boss in P2
    2 - Her pet likes to get stuck and glitchy on Spoils, so we wondered if there was something we could do to fix that if there is any - It's not always, just most of the time, which is definitely annoying :P


    Thank you very much

  2. #2
    Well, really need to look at single target to get some idea. You said you do the stack at the back for IJ, so that left us Malkorak.

    Last week, she died halfway through the fight, so toss that one out.

    Dec 6th, don't know what her ilvl was at this point. Let's look at it anyway:

    1) Uptimes...BA is above 90%, decent, but can be higher with AoC. SrS 86%, that's not great.
    2) GT - 16 casts total, 5:41 fight, missing about 6 GT.
    3) ES - 92 casts. Over 341s, assuming a 6s CD, you have 56 plus 16 LnLs (x2) = 88 casts...must have had some 4pc procs, this is hard to measure but it seems pretty okay.
    4) 47 AS. Don't really know how to analyze this except in...
    5) 341 GCDs = 92 ES + 16 GT + 19 BA + 47 AS + 14 SrS (I assume procs made it fall off) + 15s of Deterrence to pick up orbs + 8 KS + 2 MS + 55 CoS (let's estimate at 1.5s average, so 82 GCDs) = 295 GCDs....so I have to wonder what's going on for 46s or so of the fight. I think I might even be a bit high on my estimation of CoS average cast considering the uptime of RF in this tier. Oh, 2 Stampedes, so 44s downtime.

    TL;DR: Do more stuff (unless I'm missing something obvious), and try and keep your SrS/BA uptime a bit higher, but that's an issue for any SV hunter spamming ES with 4pc. Hunters are a class that have the highest APM of any class with our 1s GCD and our mostly instant arsenal, so you gotta keep up..

  3. #3
    I'll definitely take that on board and bring this up with her!

    Something to add though, regarding the glaive toss, she prioritizes her LnL procs (which is definitely the way to go) over using glaive toss, as well as prioritizing black arrow / re-applying SrS if it had fell off and could of used det while glaive toss was on CD, which I'm not sure if it was or not hehe. Another little thing is dodging orbs to reach far away puddles and running backwards to soak puddles (= away from boss) as well as being slammed and getting out of range of boss for about 3 seconds (happened to her twice that try) is still stuff that I feel has to be taken into consideration for missed GCD's for heroic Malkorok - However, the downtime on GT allowing it to be used more over the fight (6 is a little to many for sure) and that many GCD's she had missed could be a fair DPS increase alone.. So will definitely work on getting her to using GT earlier when it's off cooldown and spending more GCD's where and when possible


    More feedback would be great also, single target and multi-target

  4. #4
    her dps is good for her Ilvl, she could be doing way more tho playing bm, my ilvl is 3 higher and i pull around 360k on fights like heroic jugg, malkorok, but if she just want to play sv is fine.

    about pet on spoils is simple to fix, tell her to use crows instead of blink strikes, use the crows on big box so isnt a waste of a cd, she would need to save it, we dont pull both big boxes back to back we open buffs, then big box with 2 smalls ones, after we clear all we want to we open last big box that way we have 2 and 3 min for it. if you do it this way AMoC wont be less dps than blink strikes.

    i would also really think about sticking to AMoC vs Blink strikes as SV, as bm blink strikes is the better option as SV not so much.

    i wont comment about ToTH vs Fervor vs Dire Beast, i think this talent tier is preference, even tho the right call should be dire beast i think ToTH isnt modeled as good on sims and sometimes if you manage good procs the right times you can get far more than dire beast, specially as SV with 4pc.

    kinda hard to judge her DPS when your strat on Jugg is so bad tho, uptime is kinda low, is she using deterrence for the last 2 push backs? takes no damage and wont move an inch. i would recomend to do that, she wont die from random aoe unless she is standing in oil.

    trying to find a log with malkorok either heroic or normal.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/46e01...?s=9111&e=9453

    looking at this log she had 92 explosive shots on 341 seconds with a 6 sec cds only 52 fit, this mean she had procs and was able to keep up with it, so she is doing good here. even tho she should be opening with explosive shot instead with black arrow.

    i would use this opener
    ES->BA->SrS->Stampede->Glaive Toss->ES->Rapid Fire+Cobra Shot, reg rotation after this.

    serpent sting uptime is low, she reaply few times it could be 4pc making this go down, is the right call to spam explosive shot during lnl so this could be fine just looking on the fly at the logs.

    black arrow uptime is 92% she can probably increase that a bit more, using black arrow on the last 2 sec wont make the dot get wasted even tho she was doing this.

    she sit on deterrence for 15 sec the whole fight, she could be clearing with it, if she wants to get the max dps healers needs to heal her so she dps while clearing, or just keep doing this (i do this as well) and not be an extra person to heal during blood rage.

    i really dont see anything wrong with her tho. if your other DPS increase her dps will increase as well by a lot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Well, really need to look at single target to get some idea. You said you do the stack at the back for IJ, so that left us Malkorak.

    Last week, she died halfway through the fight, so toss that one out.

    Dec 6th, don't know what her ilvl was at this point. Let's look at it anyway:

    1) Uptimes...BA is above 90%, decent, but can be higher with AoC. SrS 86%, that's not great.
    2) GT - 16 casts total, 5:41 fight, missing about 6 GT.
    3) ES - 92 casts. Over 341s, assuming a 6s CD, you have 56 plus 16 LnLs (x2) = 88 casts...must have had some 4pc procs, this is hard to measure but it seems pretty okay.
    4) 47 AS. Don't really know how to analyze this except in...
    5) 341 GCDs = 92 ES + 16 GT + 19 BA + 47 AS + 14 SrS (I assume procs made it fall off) + 15s of Deterrence to pick up orbs + 8 KS + 2 MS + 55 CoS (let's estimate at 1.5s average, so 82 GCDs) = 295 GCDs....so I have to wonder what's going on for 46s or so of the fight. I think I might even be a bit high on my estimation of CoS average cast considering the uptime of RF in this tier. Oh, 2 Stampedes, so 44s downtime.

    TL;DR: Do more stuff (unless I'm missing something obvious), and try and keep your SrS/BA uptime a bit higher, but that's an issue for any SV hunter spamming ES with 4pc. Hunters are a class that have the highest APM of any class with our 1s GCD and our mostly instant arsenal, so you gotta keep up..
    cant judge SrS and BA uptime with 4pc tbh. i was thinking this as well but is hard to do with or without the trinket while spaming ES. i wont judge gcds as you do tho, 1 thing is latency, that will add a lot, you dont know what kind of latency she is running, we are talking about 0.1 if not more per gcd, happens to me a lot even tho i spam my keys.

    i just dont see anything wrong with her, as you do. glaive toss problem can be the same, 4pc.

  5. #5
    Yeah, our Iron Juggernaut method is just a "safety precaution" really! She deterrence's both shock pulses if she doesn't need it for a bomb soak (depending on setup), which she may save 1 for..

    Is AMoC pretty good on most other fights other spoils then? I know it got less love with the readiness gone, however, she knows how to play with that, so it's something to try I believe Blink Strikes was just quite close on some fights DPS wise to which she stayed with it, but this was a while ago!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post

    i really dont see anything wrong with her tho. if your other DPS increase her dps will increase as well by a lot.
    I tried telling her this also, she knows it would, but still wanted to improve as much as she could to help make DPS easier on the others The other DPS does seem quite low though compared, which doesn't help. Regarding BM, I will try and get her to get it dusted of a bit, especially if it can pull higher numbers by that margin - I do know she prefers Survival a lot more though


    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    cant judge SrS and BA uptime with 4pc tbh. i was thinking this as well but is hard to do with or without the trinket while spaming ES. i wont judge gcds as you do tho, 1 thing is latency, that will add a lot, you dont know what kind of latency she is running, we are talking about 0.1 if not more per gcd, happens to me a lot even tho i spam my keys.

    i just dont see anything wrong with her, as you do. glaive toss problem can be the same, 4pc.

    Her MS fluctuates between 50 - 70 on a good day, it doesn't give her "lag" that it will be of any concern in raiding and missing / messing up mechanics, but it can and does make a difference to the GCD (Hell, I get GCD lag on my Prot Pally too and I currently play at 21MS - Both of our keyboards will probably give in soon the way we have to spam our keys with our low GCD) and I forgot to mention that in my last post referring to the GT and uptimes of BA and SrS.. There are a lot of factors to which I think I tried answering the best I could
    Last edited by Hound02; 2013-12-20 at 03:32 AM.

  6. #6
    270k seems low for getting power of the titans 6 times on sha of pride. There's really no secret to doing well with survival. Press explosive every time you can, press glaive toss every time you can, keep black arrow up, keep serpent sting up and fill the rest with arcane or cobra.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    her dps is good for her Ilvl, she could be doing way more tho playing bm, my ilvl is 3 higher and i pull around 360k on fights like heroic jugg, malkorok, but if she just want to play sv is fine.
    Not sure I agree with this tbh. I am 2 ilevels above the OP and SV still sims a bit higher than BM for me, though the difference is less now than when I started the tier. Considering the relatively easier pet management and improved target switching burst, I don't really see any reason to switch to BM right now.

    OP:

    I took a quick peek at a few of the most recent fights. It's pretty much as Libertarian said. E.g. on Sha of Pride: an 8m32s fight with 22 LnL procs you'd be able to cast at least 129 Explosives, and with the 4-piece, assuming even not so brilliant RNG, it could easily get up to 150 Explosive Shots. Yet she casted only 129 Explosive Shots exactly. I mean, did she not have the 4-piece equipped ? Black Arrow uptime is also kind of bad -- only 81.2%. It should be 95% or better on that fight.

    I also looked at Galakras, because I find hectic, multi-target, AOE-heavy fights a better measure of a player than boring single target fights. First of all here I am noting that she is not on Grunt duty (due to her doing almost no damage to the Grunt) or cannon duty (due to her having one of the highest uptimes in the raid). I also see that she's not even adding any utility like Binding Shot or interrupts, so she really is just standing there AOEing the entire time. Lucky hunter. That being the case, 255k dps while AOE meter padding is really, really low at her gear level. I'm inclined to look askance at her ability usage for an explanation. For example, she has so few hits with Multi-Shot. Looking at my most recent Galakras log, it looks like we had the same number of Multi-Shot hits, and yet I am on Grunt single-target *and* cannon duty on both towers (grr). That seems wrong.

    Also this. 47 Serpent Stings... uh, she does know that Multi-Shot already applies Serpent Sting, right ?

  8. #8
    Just by looking on armory im wondering why is she going with blink strikes as surv? I've always been thinking this is a BM talent and useful for some fights like Spoils where it's alot of adds all the time.
    I would recomend going with A Murder of Crows on most fights but I might be wrong.
    Last edited by wesell; 2013-12-20 at 11:04 AM.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by wesell View Post
    Just by looking on armory im wondering why is she going with blink strikes as surv? I've always been thinking this is a BM talent and useful for some fights like Spoils where it's alot of adds all the time.
    I would recomend going with A Murder of Crows on most fights but I might be wrong.
    Blinking wont help you much, mobs on spoils arent that spread like Nazgrim or Norushen

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Her biggest problem is low Arcane Shot damage, it is about 50% lower than where it should be on a lot of fights. This means she is likely focus capping where she should be dumping. She is also running Blink Strikes, which is not a great choice.

  11. #11
    On Galakras, she just helps a little on grunts when needed and goes up both towers - Her Serpent Sting application was a little high, but she was testing out her new mouseover serpent sting macro through the last raid - to try and keep serpent sting rolling on other bosses such as nazgrim / norushen / fallen protectors / malkorok (for the slime) so that could be one of the reasons it may be a little high, however, we also recently changed her keybind around slightly as her pet attack macro was with her Arcane Shot, which when she switched target it wasted a lot of focus, to which she changed it to Serpent Sting. I will get her to add it to ES too though. Regarding her using no binding shot's, I'm fairly sure she did use (log says 6) on our kill, each time in a bonecrusher wave :P

    ---

    But taking all the other notes in, from what I can pick up, use more arcane shots (it did seem quite low) when ES and BA are on cooldown and try better with the BA and SrS uptimes - although she delays them when LnL procs which can take a fair bit away, so aim for 90%+ on a more consistent basis? (I think Musca uses BA during LnL procs to get 95%+ uptime every time? :P I do agree 80% was a little low for that fight though, but she does normally keep it around the 90% mark on majority of the fights).

    Use AMoC on more fights instead of blink strikes? Which bosses would you use AMoC and Blink Strikes for? Can definately give that a try

    Also, still welcome for more feedback of course!
    Last edited by Hound02; 2013-12-20 at 01:21 PM.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hound02 View Post

    Use AMoC on more fights instead of blink strikes? Which bosses would you use AMoC and Blink Strikes for? Can definately give that a try

    Also, still welcome for more feedback of course!
    During progress I used Blink Strikes on Spoils and AMoC on every other.

    If she really wants constructive feedback the best thing she can do is record herself and ask someone with experience to help. Otherwise she will get lots of bad advice (see this thread for details!).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    During progress I used Blink Strikes on Spoils and AMoC on every other.

    If she really wants constructive feedback the best thing she can do is record herself and ask someone with experience to help. Otherwise she will get lots of bad advice (see this thread for details!).
    is kinda hard to give advice without really looking into the logs, checking every ability use and checking every proc. not everyone will do it that way, i just look at logs check on the fly the ammount of time and ES+lnl procs and calculate if is correct or not. quick glance of logs pretty much. i wont dismiss all the feedback tho.

    their strats and fight times are awfull. you also need to take this into consideration.

    things like sitting in nowhere on jugg to get heal when you can turn the boss 90 degrees and get punt into the door where you enter the encounter achieving the same result and being able to attack the whole time is a better strat that will increase a lot of dps uptime.

    not deterrencing during malkorok for 5 sec because healers cant heal her is another 15 sec of downtime that will lower her dps by a huge marging, a trinket proc during this is a lot of dps wasted.

    like i said, if your raid dps dosnt go up there is Little that she can do, for their progression and skill i think she is pretty good, better than the rest of the raid tbh.

  14. #14
    I can't think of a worse way to handle pets than wasting 15 focus on a useless Serpent Sting every time you want it to attack a new target, tbh. Also, I am unsure why she needs to test a Serpent Sting macro 47 times during a raid fight. But you seem to really want to believe that your gf is a great hunter, to the point of making excuses for most of the things people are pointing out, so /shrug.

    My bad on the Binding Shot though. I see it now. Must have been looking at a different fight before.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Musca View Post
    I can't think of a worse way to handle pets than wasting 15 focus on a useless Serpent Sting every time you want it to attack a new target, tbh. Also, I am unsure why she needs to test a Serpent Sting macro 47 times during a raid fight. But you seem to really want to believe that your gf is a great hunter, to the point of making excuses for most of the things people are pointing out, so /shrug.

    My bad on the Binding Shot though. I see it now. Must have been looking at a different fight before.

    I'm not saying she's a great hunter, but I think picking out 1 thing from 1 boss in a whole site of logs and bringing it up again is a little unfair and offering little to no help on how to solve the issue.. I said what the case was before though and we've changed and fixed that now - if that was all you could pick up from all those logs though, I think that's great, because that's easily solvable (put pet macro on ES / Arcane Shot - works like a charm now in not using so many serpent stings)

    We're always up for feedback and I don't intend to make "excuses" at all, I'm saying how things are so people can relate better to her gameplay as logs don't show everything

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    her dps is good for her Ilv
    I did 80k more than she did on Sha 10HC with 10 ilvls less and no AoC. Her DPS is far from good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perrito View Post
    is kinda hard to give advice without really looking into the logs, checking every ability use and checking every proc. not everyone will do it that way, i just look at logs check on the fly the ammount of time and ES+lnl procs and calculate if is correct or not. quick glance of logs pretty much. i wont dismiss all the feedback tho.
    Looking for logs is near impossible for Survival this tier because there isn't really much you can see unless you dig really deep (deeper than anyone would ever care to). Mainly the 4set causes an irregular amount of ES casts (and I don't think there's any combo log event for it) and causes SrS to fall off at times. The only things you can really look at are CD usage (which is also hard because Rapid Fire is hardly a cooldown anymore and Stampede and AMoC require looking into timestamps in the log browser.

    What you can look at though are things such as Focus gained from Cobra Shot (is it divisible by 14? If not then they were using it while Focus capped), Fervor focus gained (if talented) Black Arrow uptime (if using AoC) and Pet uptime.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-12-21 at 01:58 AM.

  17. #17
    As someone above me already mentioned, she just needs to do more stuff. One glaring thing i noticed was BA uptime. Since she already has H-AoC she should have 100% uptime. Does she use any addons to track dots ? If not, JSHunterBars is excellent to track dots on your target.

    EDIT : Also AMoC is pretty good for SV. The cooldown for AMoC lines up pretty nicely with AoC trinket.
    Last edited by Raicky; 2013-12-23 at 12:13 PM.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Traxex1909 View Post
    As someone above me already mentioned, she just needs to do more stuff. One glaring thing i noticed was BA uptime. Since she already has H-AoC she should have 100% uptime. Does she use any addons to track dots ? If not, JSHunterBars is excellent to track dots on your target.

    EDIT : Also AMoC is pretty good for SV. The cooldown for AMoC lines up pretty nicely with AoC trinket.
    Saying she should have 100% BA uptime isn't really true. If your BA falls off during a LNL string of explosive shots, it is better to keep spamming the explosive shots until the ICD on LNL has reset.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Im not sure if this has been answered yet, but for your spoils pet question.

    The answer is your tank is tanking the adds to close to the next boxes. So when your pet Blink Strikes it gets stuck in the box

    Tell your tank to move out from the boxes a little and that should fix that problem.

    or don't use Blink Strikes as Surv.
    Last edited by Littlepinch; 2013-12-23 at 04:14 PM.

  20. #20
    For iron Juggernaut I would go BM. Kill command as a 100 yard range so when you guys are away from boss kill command can still be cast and adds up to some significant "extra" damage. Her Damage seems ok for the raid shes in. As long as she stays competitive with the rest of the raid.

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