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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Whales96 View Post



    Because not all classes do the same things.
    When it comes to the "utility" of a Hunter? Yes they do.

    Our CC is extremely generic and is mirrored by basically anyone else. Bringing a raid buff with a pet means literally nothing at all in 25 man. We have frost trap...yay. Cone of Cold, Chillblains, glyphed D&D, Remorseless Winter, Dizzying Haze, Keg Smash, Earthbind and Earthgrab totems, Piercing Howl all do effectively the same thing.

    You can do this for really any bit of 'utility' Hunters have. So on top of these other classes already doing everything we can do, they get things like AG, Devo, AMZ, Stormlash, Banners, Tranqs, Innervates, Smoke Bombs, Pally Hands, Portals, Healthstones, etc.

    If you can't see the extreme disparity by now then you should probably just stop speaking on the subject.

  2. #122
    The only fight we benched mages for was Thok. We went with whatever performed the best on progress, fortunately two mages were. If we had 3 on a constant basis, that may have been different.

    Spare a thought for SP's.

    Need 20 warlocks.

  3. #123
    If you do enough dps you will not be benched. Even if we hunters are a bit on the low side according to dpsbot.




  4. #124
    I'm the raid leader for a 25 man team, 9/14 and we have 3 hunters. I have yet to bench them or any of my 3 mages because of utility. I have however benched them for tunneling, actually thinking on it I havn't... they don't tunnel and they don't mind swapping in and out for each other if we are "over full" on ranged... but then again neither do the locks.

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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by options View Post
    I'm the raid leader for a 25 man team, 9/14 and we have 3 hunters. I have yet to bench them or any of my 3 mages because of utility. I have however benched them for tunneling, actually thinking on it I havn't... they don't tunnel and they don't mind swapping in and out for each other if we are "over full" on ranged... but then again neither do the locks.
    The point is that if you have other classes available that have comparative gear and skill to your Hunters, you are making objectively detrimental decisions for your raid group. You'll be able to eventually clear the content with Hunters, nobody is arguing that. You're just not doing it even close to optimally if you have other options available.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    The point is that if you have other classes available that have comparative gear and skill to your Hunters, you are making objectively detrimental decisions for your raid group. You'll be able to eventually clear the content with Hunters, nobody is arguing that. You're just not doing it even close to optimally if you have other options available.
    Yup I'm not even sure how this can be argued against

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    If you do enough dps you will not be benched. Even if we hunters are a bit on the low side according to dpsbot.
    This it true. In any but the most hardcore raid teams this reigns supreme. Now days even if hunters are not the top, everyone is so close in terms in damage. There have been fights where I will drop 4-6 spots on the meters because I held my deterrence for a bit to long, or a fight like heroic iron juggernaut where I get a few kill commands during transition phase and jump 2-3 spaced every KC. but at the end of the fight when everyone's damage is within 1% then your not doin bad enough to sit. If your sitting dead last your doing something wrong, or your gear needs some help.

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  8. #128
    Mechagnome Ryas's Avatar
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    In your average guild, a good hunter shouldn't have a problem keeping up with other classes. When min/maxing, we don't scale as well as other classes so in top end guilds that could be a possibility. However, in general we just need more utility. I don't care if it's a raid DPS increasing ability, a raid wide damage mitigation, and so on: we just need something. Besides DPS and the occasional fight where we have some extra job, overall we bring nothing to the raid.

    I am enjoying where we are at from a mechanic standpoint: I love how we feel right now. But let's take an ability that is basically pointless now at this point (Hunter's Mark) since it's an auto ability now and make it something bigger. 3min CD, all attackers on this target now get an extra 15% chance to crit for 20 seconds or something. I don't care what it is, as long as it's useful enough to the raid that I generally feel more useful besides my DPS.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Renisis86 View Post
    This it true. In any but the most hardcore raid teams this reigns supreme. Now days even if hunters are not the top, everyone is so close in terms in damage. There have been fights where I will drop 4-6 spots on the meters because I held my deterrence for a bit to long, or a fight like heroic iron juggernaut where I get a few kill commands during transition phase and jump 2-3 spaced every KC. but at the end of the fight when everyone's damage is within 1% then your not doin bad enough to sit. If your sitting dead last your doing something wrong, or your gear needs some help.
    Do you have logs showing everyones damage within 1% of the enhancement shamans and ferals and rogues and warlocks? If that's the case then your players for those classes aren't playing up to par.

  10. #130
    Yeah there's logs also understand 1% could be slightly dramatized but it still holds true. And realize that sim DPS isn't real world. Real world is not Patchwerk style Sim DPS. The only DPS that matters is within your raid teams and how you stack up to the raid. Hunters excel on single target fights with high movement. Understand that raiding is a team effort and the teams agenda is not to gear everyone up, it is to progress and kill bosses. Its the players agenda to gear up. OP - On a fight where mages are better than Hunters than you should be happy to sit because your a team player and the good of the team is what matters. If sitting out is an issue then you can look for another team where your DPS compare better.
    Last edited by Renisis86; 2013-12-22 at 07:52 PM.

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  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Also, you were the one who lashed out at me with my "zero heroic bosses" because you couldn't take ten seconds to look into my character, when I commented on the fact that your guild's hunters are performing better than the other classes, and THAT is why they seem to be doing so well. If you can't deal with me returning fire, you probably shouldn't start yourself.
    I wasn't lashing out at you at all mate, granted, the tone of a question is hard to gauge over a forum, but I was simply wondering why a player with no heroic experience to speak of would be so worried about issues that only affect the top 1% of guilds - a perfectly legitimate question, I might add.

    I'm just astounded at the fact so many people are under the illusion that the situation is that dire, it's really not at all. I play a Fire Mage - arguably one of the most useless things in WoW right now and I pull my weight every raid. Not worried in the slightest, sure it sucks to be the shit class, but you'll get over it when you kill the bosses anyway.

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  12. #132
    I don't understand this bench thing. If I EVER consider that I'm not being taken to a raid for unfair reasons, I quit the guild and find another that actually has need of me, I don't give a fuck.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The second part of your post basicly agrees with what I'm trying to argue - if you have the choise between a elemental shaman and a hunter that has the same performance, you'll pick the elemental shaman because their dps is about the same, but they have so many more potent cooldowns (and even with a little less dps, they bring stormlash that won't show up as their personal DPS).
    Of course, if your hunter is performing better than the remainder of the raid, taking him over a worse performer will probably be better unless you desperately need the CD. But that isn't really often the case.
    Yep you are 100% right. We are obviously in the process of growing for 20m, and I had decided not to actively recruit a second hunter unless we picked up an exceptional application. luckily we have, but if it works out it will likely lead to me playing something else...
    Last edited by Carlaena; 2013-12-22 at 08:39 PM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumbix View Post
    I don't understand this bench thing. If I EVER consider that I'm not being taken to a raid for unfair reasons, I quit the guild and find another that actually has need of me, I don't give a fuck.

    The point is, at the moment it is unfair for everyone with same gear/skill who get benched for you. Would be quite funny if everyone in your guild would think like you, wouldn't be that much players left there.
    Last edited by Squall; 2013-12-22 at 09:24 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayne13 View Post
    Impossible to get rank 10 due to dps requirements on snake one. Nice try though. Proving grounds is pretty easy so I would compare proving grounds to rank 7 brawler.
    Keypoints being that ilvl can be "faked" you can manipulate it and get a hell of a lot more dps then you would with only 440 ilvl items.For example If you get a soo hc weapon and trinkets and compensate for perhaps belt or rings, atleast something that doesnt have a lot of sockets. you can get a lot of stats and dmg output (as far as hunter goes at least) Also you don't need hit and exp cap. You'd be surpriced how much dmg you can squeese out.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    Keypoints being that ilvl can be "faked" you can manipulate it and get a hell of a lot more dps then you would with only 440 ilvl items.For example If you get a soo hc weapon and trinkets and compensate for perhaps belt or rings, atleast something that doesnt have a lot of sockets. you can get a lot of stats and dmg output (as far as hunter goes at least) Also you don't need hit and exp cap. You'd be surpriced how much dmg you can squeese out.
    just no, you cant cheese the ilvl and meet the dps requirements for most of the bosses past level 8.

    isnt alone the dps, the health check is imposible to beat. there is a difference in HARD and IMPOSIBLE. i do Cmodes carrys often and even when sitting on BIS i barelly can stay for 2 min over 120k dps. we are talking about 463 ilvl here with around 20 gems on gear with perfect stats and yeah you cant do Rank 10 brawlers guild on a hunter with that kind of gear.

    to draco, the same history repeat again, nothing new, if you had seen this happening again i bet you would be playing your hunter instead of your priest.

  17. #137
    im in a 577+ guild clearing hc every wedensday. and me and the other mages are always high on dps. (below ferals and locks but still... the majority of specs is below both arcane and fire

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Proving grounds scales you to 463. The point that terokkar was making was that if you have a lot of sockets then it becomes significantly easier because raw agility scales so much better for Hunters than any secondary stat.

    Endless 30 is definitely not impossible at 463. Hunter's have gone far above and beyond wave 30.
    But the guy said he did it with ilvl 440. IF you go in with 440 gear you don't get scaled up to 463 and you don't have all those extra sockets.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Sydarm View Post
    Because we bring no raid cooldowns. I don't really care that we "bring buffs" cause in 25m it is completely irrelevant. We do subpar DPS on most fights compared to other classes, and we bring no raid cooldowns, no movement cooldowns, nothing. I've argued the point many times that hunters mark should be a raid CD similar to warrior crit banner, but a little stronger, and on that single target only. And cheetah aspect should be a movement roar cooldown that druids have. Just to make us a LITTLE wanted


    frustration. WoD better change some shit
    Sounds like the only 'shit' that needs to change is your current choice of guild.

    I understand wanting to absolute minmax if you're in the world first race, but at this point? Its utterly stupid to burn bridges with friends and guildies over a miniscule gain. There's no reason whatsoever to. If your guild/group needs an extra 2-3% dps to get past an encounter, they're failing at some other aspect of the fight. Period.

  20. #140
    Mechagnome Dhryke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Sounds like the only 'shit' that needs to change is your current choice of guild.

    I understand wanting to absolute minmax if you're in the world first race, but at this point? Its utterly stupid to burn bridges with friends and guildies over a miniscule gain. There's no reason whatsoever to. If your guild/group needs an extra 2-3% dps to get past an encounter, they're failing at some other aspect of the fight. Period.
    It's not about the DPS.

    Player A does 300k DPS and has a CD to either keep the raid alive or add to the raids DPS.
    Player B(hunter) ALSO does 300k DPS BUT has no CD to help the raid in any way.

    Keeping both players in mind, if you're struggling on an encounter, whether it's due to DPS or healing, who would you bring?

    Also, on this whole min/max subject, why is it worthless for a less progressed guild to do so? They want to kill a boss just as badly as the next guild. Why not use what they have to their fullest potential? Obviously the skill level of the less progressed guilds isn't high enough to carry them through encounters, so they'll use every possible thing they have at their disposal.

    The fact that 100+ guilds have killed it before them does not decrease their desire to kill the boss.
    Last edited by Dhryke; 2013-12-23 at 06:48 PM.

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