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  1. #1

    aMoC placement in the opener

    I was sifting through WoL top SV parses earlier today on Iron Jugg, Thok, and Malkorok to see how their openers compare to mine. The parses that I pulled all show Crows being around the 5-7th cast.

    Being as how Crows updates dynamically and has a 30s duration, wouldn't it be more likely to get the full benefit of trinket procs by casting it earlier? Usually both trinkets have already gone off by the 5-7th cast in the opener - at least for me. That means that by casting it late, you can easily lose decent chunks of the trinkets duration.

    Looking at the AoC trinket, the duration is 20s. So even if it procs late in the opener, there is still a 10 second window where you won't lose any stack time by casting Crows early. Where as, more often than not (at least for me), it does proc early, and by casting Crows late, you are going to lose some stack time.

    I might be missing something crucial, and I do realize that the differences are likely minor, but I figured it was something note worthy enough to bring up and get some feedback on.

    EDIT: Also, due to the cooldown on Crows being 5 seconds longer than the trinket, by casting it later you are more likely to drive their alignment further apart later in the fight.
    Last edited by Dherkin; 2013-11-27 at 05:03 PM.

  2. #2
    I cast it in BW after I used KC and GT because it's 30 focus instead of 60 and I have no idea if that's good or bad :shrug:

  3. #3
    I believe he's talking about SV.

  4. #4
    Because i get the perfect amount of focus, i open with:

    ES, sting, BA, stampede, Crows, (cobra)/glaives

    You want to use BA as soon as possible not only to force lnl asap, but also if AoC procs instantl, you wanna get the 2nd cast off before the trinket expires, stampede is more dps than crows so should be cast before, you need sting up to get viper venom ticking in order to, and ES is just to proc trinkets
    Last edited by Dela2k10; 2013-11-27 at 07:28 PM.
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  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    dont use AMoC use blink stikes /thread

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    dont use AMoC use blink stikes /thread
    the op asked about amoc in the rotation, not about whether or not to use amoc over other talents in the tier. amoc is generally better for sv on fights where its going to be able to run its full duration every time its off cd, especially during procs.

    i do what dela said. i think its the best way to open.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dela2k10 View Post
    Because i get the perfect amount of focus, i open with:

    ES, sting, BA, stampede, Crows, (cobra)/glaives

    You want to use BA as soon as possible not only to force lnl asap, but also if AoC procs instantl, you wanna get the 2nd cast off before the trinket expires, stampede is more dps than crows so should be cast before, you need sting up to get viper venom ticking in order to, and ES is just to proc trinkets
    What haste rating would you need to achieve this? I always seem to have to cobra before crows and my gear isn't all that bad.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Alth/advanced

    Edit: I appear to have more haste than you, that seems odd. I did recently acquire a lot more gear though, so I'll re-test it.

    Edit2: I just tried this with attack speed pet and I can't manage to pull this off. I have around 45 focus after Expl, Sting, BA, Stampede+RF macro. Do you cast Rapid fire along with Explosive shot to achieve this or something?

    Edit3: After casting my RF along with explosive shot at the start, I still only have around 50/51 focus after stampede.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-11-28 at 04:36 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    What haste rating would you need to achieve this? I always seem to have to cobra before crows and my gear isn't all that bad.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Alth/advanced

    Edit: I appear to have more haste than you, that seems odd. I did recently acquire a lot more gear though, so I'll re-test it.

    Edit2: I just tried this with attack speed pet and I can't manage to pull this off. I have around 45 focus after Expl, Sting, BA, Stampede+RF macro. Do you cast Rapid fire along with Explosive shot to achieve this or something?

    Edit3: After casting my RF along with explosive shot at the start, I still only have around 50/51 focus after stampede.
    You don't have berserking. BEAST SLAYING OP

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Ryas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    dont use AMoC use blink stikes /thread
    As survival, wrong. Maybe on the occasional fight but I like AMoC on most other fights.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    What haste rating would you need to achieve this? I always seem to have to cobra before crows and my gear isn't all that bad.
    Always use Fervor if you're using Crows. It's better than TotH in both sims and reality, and better than Dire Beast in reality. Dump >50 focus on your opener (Explosive/BA/Sting should do it), then Fervor -> Crows.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuyn View Post
    Always use Fervor if you're using Crows. It's better than TotH in both sims and reality, and better than Dire Beast in reality. Dump >50 focus on your opener (Explosive/BA/Sting should do it), then Fervor -> Crows.
    Sorry but in reality ToTH is far superior to Fervor if used correctly. Fervor makes your rotation smoother yes, but it doesn't have the potential of ToTH, especially on fights with aoe/cleave, then fervor falls far behind. Not to mention I'm certain you gain more focus over the course of a fight with ToTH than with fervor. There is an addon for it that tracks how much focus you saved in the fight from ToTH. For example on Dark Shamans last week in a fight lasting just over 400 seconds I saved over 1900 focus from ToTH. In this time I would have gotten around 13 fervors off assuming I could make 100% optimal use out of them on CD, which lets be honest is not the case most of the time due to perhaps being focus capped from long strings of lock and load procs being the primary cause for this. Now you may be thinking, 13 potential fervors, that's 1300 focus, with an added 1300 for the pet! Now bear in mind here we are Survival, our pet is not as potent as it is for BM, and it becomes apparent that regardless whatever the sims want to tell you, Fervor just isn't as good as ToTH. In an ideal world, it might, just maybe pull ahead, although I doubt this to be the case. That being said, in the world of Survival 4 piece, it will fall behind by quite a margin. I have considered it for the pull with AMoC though, but overall I don't think it's worth it.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-11-30 at 04:32 AM.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Ryas's Avatar
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    All I know is, with LnL and the 4 piece, we have RNG on top of RNG. I don't feel like adding more RNG to my rotation. I like my fervor.

  13. #13
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    Does your addon track ToTH procs, or how many AS/MS you use under the effects of ToTH? Because the two are wildly different, if you're not using ToTH incorrectly, that is.

    1300 focus + 1300 pet focus wins easy in BM. As for SV, I dunno. You have to consider the following:

    1) The 1300 extra focus in Fervor is on your pet, which is, if your uptime isn't horrific, always focus starved. So you get 100% benefit out of this, and increase your Wild Hunt uptime (which is significant, for pet DPS).
    2) The 600 extra focus in ToTH is personal focus, and hunters are starving for GCDs as it is. You're going to want to cast 2.5 CoS per 15s to sustain SrS, so you're butting your head up against some serious GCD+focus capping issues here.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryas View Post
    As survival, wrong. Maybe on the occasional fight but I like AMoC on most other fights.
    notice the bold, just because you think its good means nothing.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Does your addon track ToTH procs, or how many AS/MS you use under the effects of ToTH? Because the two are wildly different, if you're not using ToTH incorrectly, that is.

    1300 focus + 1300 pet focus wins easy in BM. As for SV, I dunno. You have to consider the following:

    1) The 1300 extra focus in Fervor is on your pet, which is, if your uptime isn't horrific, always focus starved. So you get 100% benefit out of this, and increase your Wild Hunt uptime (which is significant, for pet DPS).
    2) The 600 extra focus in ToTH is personal focus, and hunters are starving for GCDs as it is. You're going to want to cast 2.5 CoS per 15s to sustain SrS, so you're butting your head up against some serious GCD+focus capping issues here.
    Yes, the addon tracks how much focus you saved by USING the arcane/multi shots, not how many procs you received.

    1) You will not get 100% effect from your fervor, your pet included (assuming you aren't casting it while focus capped, which would be retarded). As I said, there will most likely be numerous times in a fight where you cannot make use of it, for example, during or shortly after a string of explosive shot procs. You will 1, have to sit on fervor until your streak ends and 2, have to cast off a couple of spells afterwards to get yourself under the 50 focus mark. Not to mention general fight mechanics making you unable to effectively use it on CD. (Kiting Thok, proceeding to the engineer on Garrosh, deterrencing mark of anguish, Immerseus intermission just to name a few (got bored). This will mean your pet, and indeed yourself will not receive 100% benefit from Fervor, as it is not always optimal to use it on CD in the current state of SV hunters.

    2)You say capping focus is an issue, but it is not. If you are casting your most powerful spells (ie, explosive shots on proc) it is absolutely not an issue if you focus cap. Regardless if you are using Fervor or ToTH, in an explosive shot string, your focus is more often than not, going to cap out. The advantage that ToTH has over Fervor here is that when your sting does fall off inevitably during fairly decent LnL streaks, you can simple cast a Thrill of the Hunted multishot at the target for a dps gain. It is far better to do this than reapplying serpent sting without the multi shot, as you get the added damage of the multi shot factored in. This you cannot do with Fervor (while I might add, potentially sitting on the CD) because it is a terrible Damage to focus ratio to do this while not under the effects of ToTH.

    I would also like to re-iterate my point about Fervor fallng far behind ToTH on fights with AoE as well. With fervor, you will get what 2-3 multishots out of it? With ToTH you can quite easily pull off 6-7 multishots in a row no issue at all. And before somebody cries "but RNG", if you play correctly with ToTH you can bank procs for upcoming aoe phases (bats on thok, Garrosh hc first intermission). ToTH has a 30% chance to proc off a multishot or arcane shot, so you can rest assured that it is extremely likely after firing off your three procs, you will receive another three on top. Even if the RNG gods hate you that day and decide you aren't worthy of a proc, it is at the very least greater than or equal to fervor for this short window of time. (Remember, ToTH has a 65-85% uptime in most peoples logs, so the chance of you not receiving a second proc is very low).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    notice the bold, just because you think its good means nothing.
    Perhaps explain why you perceive blink strikes to be better then? I'm talking straight up iron juggernaut here, of course BS is superior on Galakras/Spoils/Immerseus/Possible Thok.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-11-30 at 07:51 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    dont use AMoC use blink stikes /thread
    Learn to read OP
    /thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    notice the bold, just because you think its good means nothing.
    Just because you think this is a thread about which talent is best doesn't mean it is.

    Edit: EJ, Icy Veins and Noxxic all say aMoC is better, unless you can bring some actual facts backing up your argument, stop it.

    OT: I use ES>SS(replaced with MS if 2+ targets)>BA>Stampede>DB>aMoC>Glaives

    I usually need some focus before aMoC, so i use as many CS as necessary as filler
    Last edited by zoomgpally; 2013-11-30 at 08:06 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    Yes, the addon tracks how much focus you saved by USING the arcane/multi shots, not how many procs you received.

    1) You will not get 100% effect from your fervor, your pet included (assuming you aren't casting it while focus capped, which would be retarded). As I said, there will most likely be numerous times in a fight where you cannot make use of it, for example, during or shortly after a string of explosive shot procs. You will 1, have to sit on fervor until your streak ends and 2, have to cast off a couple of spells afterwards to get yourself under the 50 focus mark. Not to mention general fight mechanics making you unable to effectively use it on CD. (Kiting Thok, proceeding to the engineer on Garrosh, deterrencing mark of anguish, Immerseus intermission just to name a few (got bored). This will mean your pet, and indeed yourself will not receive 100% benefit from Fervor, as it is not always optimal to use it on CD in the current state of SV hunters.

    2)You say capping focus is an issue, but it is not. If you are casting your most powerful spells (ie, explosive shots on proc) it is absolutely not an issue if you focus cap. Regardless if you are using Fervor or ToTH, in an explosive shot string, your focus is more often than not, going to cap out. The advantage that ToTH has over Fervor here is that when your sting does fall off inevitably during fairly decent LnL streaks, you can simple cast a Thrill of the Hunted multishot at the target for a dps gain. It is far better to do this than reapplying serpent sting without the multi shot, as you get the added damage of the multi shot factored in. This you cannot do with Fervor (while I might add, potentially sitting on the CD) because it is a terrible Damage to focus ratio to do this while not under the effects of ToTH.

    I would also like to re-iterate my point about Fervor fallng far behind ToTH on fights with AoE as well. With fervor, you will get what 2-3 multishots out of it? With ToTH you can quite easily pull off 6-7 multishots in a row no issue at all. And before somebody cries "but RNG", if you play correctly with ToTH you can bank procs for upcoming aoe phases (bats on thok, Garrosh hc first intermission). ToTH has a 30% chance to proc off a multishot or arcane shot, so you can rest assured that it is extremely likely after firing off your three procs, you will receive another three on top. Even if the RNG gods hate you that day and decide you aren't worthy of a proc, it is at the very least greater than or equal to fervor for this short window of time. (Remember, ToTH has a 65-85% uptime in most peoples logs, so the chance of you not receiving a second proc is very low).

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    Perhaps explain why you perceive blink strikes to be better then? I'm talking straight up iron juggernaut here, of course BS is superior on Galakras/Spoils/Immerseus/Possible Thok.
    I was speaking in a theoretical vacuum, but yes, the SV 4 pc makes Fervor less favorable for the reasons you outlined. I guess I'm not used to thinking about SV since I've been playing BM mainly since T14 and exclusively since the beast cleave buffs in T15. Still searching for 4pc this tier, which would let me play with SV again (IMO).

    In all other circumstances, you should never be above 50 focus when Fervor is coming off CD. Our priorities are straightforward enough that you can line these sort of things up. I really don't see the issue of not being able to use Fervor on CD as a serious one. Keep in mind, you have to lose 30s of "off-CD-but-not-used" time over the course of a fight before you actually "lose" a Fervor.

    As for your query about AoE - ToTH will be better for sustained AoE, yes. I find the need for sustained AoE to be....rare. The last time I did sustained AoE on a fight was H-Beth'tilac when I had to solo spiderlings, and that was a one off case that occured only in H10 man. Most often, what's needed is burst AoE, which Fervor more than covers, and then you have Fervor also allowing you to use abilities besides AS/MS in conjunction with it, like the aforementioned Crows, or even the bulky MS-KC-CoS-MS rotation of keeping up Beast Cleave. Off the top of my head, only Galakras and Spoils, and p1 Garrosh (and lol, who cares) comes to mind as having serious sustained AoE, and even then I could argue Galakras favors bursting a preferred target while keeping incidental cleave on the secondary targets (IE, MS focus dumping in SV, maintaining Beast Cleave but not spamming it in BM). Spoils can differ based on strategy.

    And to Zoom: lots of talents will come out as "best" in a sim. DB is technically top DPS in the Fervor/ToTH tier for BM, but I more often than not don't use it because of how the DB talent works. The case is less nebulous among aMoC/BS in SV, but BS still has its place on certain fights.

  18. #18
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    I use AMOC within 8 seconds. Though I basicly use it last of my opening skills. Serpent Sting, Stampede/Rapid Fire, Explosive Shot (1), Black Arrow, Glaive Toss, Explosive Trap (on stationary or adds), Cobra Shot, A Murder of Crows, Explosive Shot (2) and so on.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Ryas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    notice the bold, just because you think its good means nothing.
    And just because YOU think Blink Strikes is better doesn't make it better. Whenever I run the sims, AMoC sims better than blink strikes for Survival for me, and same in game. So yeah, without some proof what you say means nothing.

    Just because you think its good means nothing. Notice the bold?

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Kissthebaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryas View Post
    And just because YOU think Blink Strikes is better doesn't make it better. Whenever I run the sims, AMoC sims better than blink strikes for Survival for me, and same in game. So yeah, without some proof what you say means nothing.

    Just because you think its good means nothing. Notice the bold?
    Yes run your sims all you want, you have not even killed a boss in normal mode SoO your opinion means nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post

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    Perhaps explain why you perceive blink strikes to be better then? I'm talking straight up iron juggernaut here, of course BS is superior on Galakras/Spoils/Immerseus/Possible Thok.
    Not saying its better, on straight up fights it probably is a tad better depending on kill speed, its just a smaller difference than people think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post

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    Just because you think this is a thread about which talent is best doesn't mean it is.

    Edit: EJ, Icy Veins and Noxxic all say aMoC is better, unless you can bring some actual facts backing up your argument, stop it.

    r
    You do realize those websites are terrible right? I'm surprised you didn't put maxdps in that mix. Take what those websites say with a grain of salt. I have no facts because I haven't raided as survival in a couple weeks, but during progression blink strikes was my choice and the difference between using it and AMoC was tiny at best. I also like to use fervor as survival which buffs blink strikes quite a bit. I never said blink strikes was "better" i said use blink strikes. Use what ever you want idc.
    Last edited by Kissthebaby; 2013-12-01 at 09:26 AM.

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