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  1. #1
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Will a 4th spec dps fix the problem of the paladin class or the super hybrid classes?

    Hey everyone, do you guys think if Blizzard added a 4th spec dps for the paladin (either official shockadin spec or a one hand and shield dps) will finally fix the problem of the paladin class or the super hybrid classes like paladins and monks? (Used to be druid before seperating feral and guardian spec).

    I'm not saying retri dps at the moment is bad but what I mean is....because the entire class has only one dps spec... it's vulnerable in the future for being underpowered or almost weak and unplayable in heroic progress raids such as the start of tier 11 and the start of tier 14 of pandaria.

    For example in classes like warriors or shamans if elemental is weak in heroic raiding tier XX then the guy can respec enha and do ok or vice versa, well you got what I mean. :P

    With more than one dps spec in the class it's almost guarantee that it's almost impossible to have both the dps specs sucks or very weak in certain tier heroic progress raids, if one of them is unplayable or very weak then you can simply switch to the other dps spec without being forced to reroll a healer or a tank or another class.

    Thanks for reading and discuss please.

  2. #2
    Pit Lord Skorpionss's Avatar
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    or they could just buff retri a bit to make them competitive...

  3. #3
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skorpionss View Post
    or they could just buff retri a bit to make them competitive...
    Even if they buff them we will still holding our breath and at risk that any moment any patch or any content in the future we will be nerfed and get screwed to either reroll a healer or a tank without any chance to have another dps spec in our class.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    I can see your point but the problem is monks and priests are at the same position, having only one dps spec.
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  5. #5
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Would say, the best tool would be to buff them for a more competitive basis.

    Else, I am not complaining if we get an actual "shockadin" specc.
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  6. #6
    If developers did a better job in balancing specs, then a 4th spec shouldn't be needed to counter balance any stupid mistakes they do. Shockadins are more of a novelty idea then actual gameplay. The only reason we'd get a ranged dps spec is because there's really nothing else to give Paladins. I'd like to see it for giving pure dps classes some healing and tanking specs, just to stop all the hybrid complaints. But the magnitude of work developers would have to go through with spec balancing, is just not worth it.

    If they have a hard time with class balancing now, then it'll fall apart with a 4th spec.

  7. #7
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    If developers did a better job in balancing specs, then a 4th spec shouldn't be needed to counter balance any stupid mistakes they do. Shockadins are more of a novelty idea then actual gameplay. The only reason we'd get a ranged dps spec is because there's really nothing else to give Paladins. I'd like to see it for giving pure dps classes some healing and tanking specs, just to stop all the hybrid complaints. But the magnitude of work developers would have to go through with spec balancing, is just not worth it.

    If they have a hard time with class balancing now, then it'll fall apart with a 4th spec.
    I came here to say essentially this.

    In the end, they are struggling with classes having 3 specs as it already is. I hardly see how adding 10 more would make it any better, that's like adding 3 1/3 more classes. Not only would this detract from possibly adding more classes, but if they do add more classes then that's just more to add to the to-do-list.

    4th Spec would cause more problems than it would solve.

    As great of the idea of Shockadins are, or tanking Warlocks and Tanking Shamans, and Melee Mages and Melee Hunters, the ideas are just novelties which should remain just that. That is until we find that Blizzard is able to offer proper class balance and design to all existing classes/specs, I think they should focus on the existing rather than creating something else.

    Take Elemental Shamans they need a TON of work done, you think that adding a Tanking Shaman Spec would help them any? No.

    In the case of Feral/Guardian druids it made sense and it benefited both specs, if you look at the whole class though, did not benefit Boomkin druids though, they are still in an awkward place as ever.

    It's moves like this which Blizzard needs to make, moves which make sense, which will yield direct results to problems without adding more. They were already essentially doing that with Feral/Guardian but by them keeping it in the same tree it just made it 10x harder. Adding a 4th spec for the sake of a 4th spec will harm more than it solves, if it does solve anything other than pipe dreams.

    The mentality though that "you get to just switch specs" does not so simply work, if it's not Ranged-Ranged there might be no room for you, same thing with opposite. Other times it does, and it's nice! You can go from ranged-Melee but at the end of the day not everybody want's to do that and would rather play the spec of their choice instead of being forced out of it because of it being busted/unbalanced. Adding that many more specs to balance and work on will just make that many more broken specs and that many more people unhappily being bottlenecked into a spec they don't want to be because their main one isn't broken and won't get fixed anytime soon because it's at the bottom of an even longer list now.


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    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-12-22 at 08:22 PM.
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  8. #8
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    I came here to say essentially this.

    In the end, they are struggling with classes having 3 specs as it already is. I hardly see how adding 10 more would make it any better, that's like adding 3 1/3 more classes. Not only would this detract from possibly adding more classes, but if they do add more classes then that's just more to add to the to-do-list.

    4th Spec would cause more problems than it would solve.

    As great of the idea of Shockadins are, or tanking Warlocks and Tanking Shamans, and Melee Mages and Melee Hunters, the ideas are just novelties which should remain just that. That is until we find that Blizzard is able to offer proper class balance and design to all existing classes/specs, I think they should focus on the existing rather than creating something else.

    Take Elemental Shamans they need a TON of work done, you think that adding a Tanking Shaman Spec would help them any? No.

    In the case of Feral/Guardian druids it made sense and it benefited both specs, if you look at the whole class though, did not benefit Boomkin druids though, they are still in an awkward place as ever.

    It's moves like this which Blizzard needs to make, moves which make sense, which will yield direct results to problems without adding more. They were already essentially doing that with Feral/Guardian but by them keeping it in the same tree it just made it 10x harder. Adding a 4th spec for the sake of a 4th spec will harm more than it solves, if it does solve anything other than pipe dreams.

    The mentality though that "you get to just switch specs" does not so simply work, if it's not Ranged-Ranged there might be no room for you, same thing with opposite. Other times it does, and it's nice! You can go from ranged-Melee but at the end of the day not everybody want's to do that and would rather play the spec of their choice instead of being forced out of it because of it being busted/unbalanced. Adding that many more specs to balance and work on will just make that many more broken specs and that many more people unhappily being bottlenecked into a spec they don't want to be because their main one isn't broken and won't get fixed anytime soon because it's at the bottom of an even longer list now.


    Some things in the game need to be preserved, can't just do things for the sake of doing them, that's not how you produce quality products.
    I agree with you. I'm not saying adding a 4th spec will be the ultimate solution for our class problem in term of dps..all I'm saying is in my personal opinion ofc that while it may be not the best solution by adding it but much better situation than what happened to us in the beginning of tier 11 and 14 which was horrible for those who wanna play paladin as a dps.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    The mentality though that "you get to just switch specs" does not so simply work, if it's not Ranged-Ranged there might be no room for you, same thing with opposite.
    Just going to second this, basically you may as well as "melee" and "ranged" DPS as two different roles on all classes, because of both gearing differences and play differences. Granted the way gear works next expansion could help solve that (DPS stats seem like they will stay DPS when swapped), but even then I still see it more as a DPS switching to healer/tank than a range switching to another range spec.

  10. #10
    Well DKs have 2 DPS specs and both of them stink. Frost has stunk since early T14, and unholy would have stunk all 3 tiers had it not been for Ji-kun's trinket and the Runic Corruption bug, so I don't see how having 2 DPS specs would be any help.

  11. #11
    At this point, it's better to add a new class then to give everyone a 4th spec. People would be happier with a new class, and developers would by happy as it's going to only add 3 more specs to balance. Remember, each expansion has to try to offer something new for players to play it, and usually a new class or race is done. A 4th spec to each class is like adding over three new classes to the game. Why do it?

    One thing you should expect from this game is more homogenization. To balance classes better, and to do it easier, the developers will have to make it more homogenized. Which at this point is better then having broken specs that work uniquely. This game doesn't need any more new classes or specs, it just needs the existing ones to work better.

  12. #12
    Thing is, ret pallies are more than good enough, the problem is that the egregious outliers(like warlocks) make it seem like every other class is weak.
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  13. #13
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Thing is, ret pallies are more than good enough, the problem is that the egregious outliers(like warlocks) make it seem like every other class is weak.
    Yeah I'm not saying ret is bad now in fact they are very decent now specially if you have the 4th set bonus of the tier 16. But what I mean is that our class has only one dps spec and as a class that has only one dps spec we are constantly at risk of being nerfed or underpowered and when that happens we have no other choice other than changing to holy or tank or reroll another class.

  14. #14
    Blademaster
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    Just let Exorcism hit harder at range, and cleave while in melee. It make Ret slightly useful in a range fight while still keeping them competitive as a meless class. Since we are hybrids as is, might as well blur the line between melee and range while we still can.

    SJ

  15. #15
    One of the fundamental problem which might exist with the paladins in my opinion, is that I am not even sure that Blizzard consider us as a DPS-viable class... Just take a look at Heroes of the Storm, Uther Lightbringer is a support =/

    Anyhow, I think that our biggest problem is most definitely in the PVP area, we seems to be "not so terrible" in PvE according to world of logs.

  16. #16
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estarius View Post
    One of the fundamental problem which might exist with the paladins in my opinion, is that I am not even sure that Blizzard consider us as a DPS-viable class... Just take a look at Heroes of the Storm, Uther Lightbringer is a support =/

    Anyhow, I think that our biggest problem is most definitely in the PVP area, we seems to be "not so terrible" in PvE according to world of logs.
    Lets not go down that road of comparing an MMORPG to an MOBA.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    Lets not go down that road of comparing an MMORPG to an MOBA.
    Definitely agreed there. Heroes allows for quite varied character roles because the game can (pun intended) support it. WoW does not allow for support specs anymore. It's either DPS, heal, tank, or hybrid of DPS/heal and every class needs at least 1 DPS spec.

    I can understand the thinking behind wanting a second DPS spec for paladins (I certainly had fun as a shockadin in the break between WotLK and Cata since exorcism was spammable), but there's no way in hell it'll happen in WoD. We simply don't have the number of unique abilities for it, nor are there solid gameplay or lore reasons to do it. Yes, I am saying that being stuck with only one DPS spec is not enough of a solid gameplay reason. We're in the same boat as priests and monks in that regard, so if one of the classes gets a second DPS spec for that reason then they all should, hence one of the reasons it simply won't happen. Once 1/3 of the classes have 4th specs then the outcry for all classes to have a 4th would be tremendous, and I think the game as a whole would suffer from it since they have a difficult enough time balancing things as is. I'm not so sure even lessons learned from WoD will be enough to help them nail things down well enough to make a 4th spec for all classes.
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  18. #18
    A 4th spec would probably cause more balance issues than it would solve.

    Honestly, I think we're past the point where any spec is so bad that they stop getting invited to raids entirely. Yeah, a world-first quality guild might sit you for some fights, but that's going to happen anyway. Even if we have a patch where ret paladins are at the low end of the dps charts, it's not going to be a major problem.

  19. #19
    One of the side effects of having a second DPS spec might be "eh, we can afford to have one suck" like with how warriors have been. At that point it's essentially back to 1 real DPS spec. In that sense only having one DPS spec might give them a nudge in the direction of "They only have 1 DPS spec, so we need to make it worthwhile." Or at leas,t that's what I would hope. They haven't really delivered on that though.
    Last edited by Jackielope; 2013-12-25 at 07:21 PM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    A 4th spec would probably cause more balance issues than it would solve.

    Honestly, I think we're past the point where any spec is so bad that they stop getting invited to raids entirely. Yeah, a world-first quality guild might sit you for some fights, but that's going to happen anyway. Even if we have a patch where ret paladins are at the low end of the dps charts, it's not going to be a major problem.
    Blizzards been pretty good at keeping up with PvE balance. Look at Throne of Thunder, where Ret, Enhance, and Feral all got a buff when they noticed these specs doing poorly in raids. Still, this sort of thing should be noticed in beta testing and fixed then.

    This is more about melee vs ranged, which has been a hot topic this expansion. There's also a good deal of PvP concern as well.

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