If LL resets with FS ticks count as one of our 90-100 ability augmentations...

[Refridge]

Just putting it out there, I'd be super TIGHT. bro.

[Hekili]

It would need to happen a lot (which means LL's actual damage would get nerfed) or it would need to be predictable (i.e., FS ticks generate a stacking buff that resets LL at 10 stacks).

As a 4pc bonus, it's already bad.

[Refridge]

Well, it's what, a 1-2 percent dps gain? Could've been better, but our 2pc was pretty cool. I just forsee classes that don't have mechanics that should already be part of their class getting good stuff and us getting... THE DICK. I'm tired of getting the dick. I don't mind being a completely niche dps, if it's well done niche. Na mean?

[Kalshen]

What is the niche? I'm currently a warlock and am thinking of switching to Enh for warlords

[Raiju]

What is the niche? I'm currently a warlock and am thinking of switching to Enh for warlords

At the moment it's burst / uninterrupted single target. Target switching, aoe, etc. we aren't amazing at in a real environment. Theoretically our aoe can be the strongest ingame, but you need about 10x the amount of mobs (and them not dying) you will ever see in a fight for that to happen.

I would expect single target to stay constant, it's been what enhance has been best at ever since it became a real dps spec. I would also expect the cooldowns/burst to be near as important in WoD.

[Kalshen]

Do enhance shamans have control of their burst like demo locks do? Demo is my favorite spec but I'm not confident that blizzard will not nerf demo locks into the ground like they did with 5.4.

[Murderdoll]

Do enhance shamans have control of their burst like demo locks do? Demo is my favorite spec but I'm not confident that blizzard will not nerf demo locks into the ground like they did with 5.4.

Yes we do. Ascendance and Fire Elemental are great for burst phases, especially with Primal Elemental talented.

[Kalshen]

Awesome hopefully it's as much fun as it seems.. Looking forward to my shaman next xpac

[Refridge]

Combining different talents and using your cooldowns well, we can control our burst, yes, but typically controlling burst means losing uptime on CD's, which is a huge no-no for enhance, since a HUGE portion of our dmg is CD dependent.

As far as I can reason, the only fight where you might WANT to delay CD's would be heroic spoils. You may have to depending on your heroic nazgrim strat, other than those two, can't think of any fight where you wouldn't want to be dropping Fire Ele and popping Ascendance on CD.

The only reason burst isn't a good model for a DPS class is because depending on the length of the fight, you lose a CD or two worth of dps. Because the length of a fight can vary based on so many uncontrollable variables, you more often than not end up not performing as well as desired.

[Murderdoll]

Heroic Seigecrafter you have to hold onto them as well.

Garrosh I often hold off on Ascendance to use with Guidance during Whirling Corruption.

[Raiju]

The only reason burst isn't a good model for a DPS class is because depending on the length of the fight, you lose a CD or two worth of dps. Because the length of a fight can vary based on so many uncontrollable variables, you more often than not end up not performing as well as desired.

No, this is an advantage of burst.

Burst is not balanced around your dps with an above average burst uptime, it's balanced around it averaging out. On longer fights like garrosh burst averages out more, on shorter fights like malkorok your burst windows become a lot more important if you end the fight just after one (and therefore inflating your dps).

If burst were balanced around your burst dps and then you fell behind on overall during non-burst windows, burst specs just wouldn't be viable. Burst is better 99% of the time than sustained, and even the fights where you hold your cd's are an example of that due to the flexibility your dps has. Sure your recount may be a bit lower in this case, but you are also being significantly more useful for killing that progress fight.

[Refridge]

No, this is an advantage of burst.

Burst is not balanced around your dps with an above average burst uptime, it's balanced around it averaging out. On longer fights like garrosh burst averages out more, on shorter fights like malkorok your burst windows become a lot more important if you end the fight just after one (and therefore inflating your dps).

If burst were balanced around your burst dps and then you fell behind on overall during non-burst windows, burst specs just wouldn't be viable. Burst is better 99% of the time than sustained, and even the fights where you hold your cd's are an example of that due to the flexibility your dps has. Sure your recount may be a bit lower in this case, but you are also being significantly more useful for killing that progress fight.

I've gained upwards of 40k dps on a given fight, obviously with varying length (the shorter the fight, the higher you're able to push your dps with CD's). When the difference between my final dps being 40k higher or not is the 30 seconds for FET to finish, or Ascendance to be up, you have unreliable dps.

So while yes, it's awesome for a shorter fight, any fight that falls between your CD's is gonna be bad. All in all, its hard to get a clear representation of how much dps youre doing.

Also, I don't have to do the belt on siegecrafter, we have two hunters I might have to delay my Ascendance to line up with AG on H Garrosh, but normal that's not necessary at all.

[Raiju]

I've gained upwards of 40k dps on a given fight, obviously with varying length (the shorter the fight, the higher you're able to push your dps with CD's). When the difference between my final dps being 40k higher or not is the 30 seconds for FET to finish, or Ascendance to be up, you have unreliable dps.

So while yes, it's awesome for a shorter fight, any fight that falls between your CD's is gonna be bad. All in all, its hard to get a clear representation of how much dps youre doing.

You're balanced around your dps where "fights fall between your cd's".

Burst is almost ONLY good.

[Refridge]

You're balanced around your dps where "fights fall between your cd's".

Burst is almost ONLY good.

Because our sustained dps is lower than that of other classes, to make up for our CD's being potentially more powerful, and making up a larger percentage of our dps, after our burst period our dps goes down more quickly than that of a rogue or a hunter, for example. Realistically there'll never be a 45 second fight, so when we speak of ideal fight length, we want the most iterations of our CD's, in the shortest possible amount of time. I was under the impression that the best thing for us would be for the fight to end right after our cooldowns finish, so as soon as the FET despawns, for example.
This is my understanding, and if I'm not understanding something, please correct me. (not snarky or sarcastic at all, drop some knowledge on me, boii)

[Raiju]

Because our sustained dps is lower than that of other classes,

Your sustained WITH cd's is not, though.

to make up for our CD's being potentially more powerful, and making up a larger percentage of our dps, after our burst period our dps goes down more quickly than that of a rogue or a hunter, for example. Realistically there'll never be a 45 second fight, so when we speak of ideal fight length, we want the most iterations of our CD's, in the shortest possible amount of time. I was under the impression that the best thing for us would be for the fight to end right after our cooldowns finish, so as soon as the FET despawns, for example.
This is my understanding, and if I'm not understanding something, please correct me. (not snarky or sarcastic at all, drop some knowledge on me, boii)

Your dps at the end of your CD (when it's just coming off cd, should be competitive with other classes sustained. We have strong single target so naturally we can keep up with other classes even on the bad end of our cd's (assuming you are using cd's).

1. Our dps with no cd's used is lower than pretty much any other class (spec?)
2. Our sustained dps with cd's is top 10 on the spec list single target, which imo anything top 15 is fine.
3. Our burst dps is some of the highest ingame

I feel you are talking about 1, while I am talking about 2.

[wordup]

I like the 4pc and I think it would be fine implemented as a mechanic, -maybe- buff it up to 10% proc chance, but other than that it's fine. It doesn't need to be hugely integral to our damage, it's just a nice thing that happens from time to time that's fun because my button lights up.

[Refridge]

Your sustained WITH cd's is not, though.



Your dps at the end of your CD (when it's just coming off cd, should be competitive with other classes sustained. We have strong single target so naturally we can keep up with other classes even on the bad end of our cd's (assuming you are using cd's).

1. Our dps with no cd's used is lower than pretty much any other class (spec?)
2. Our sustained dps with cd's is top 10 on the spec list single target, which imo anything top 15 is fine.
3. Our burst dps is some of the highest ingame

I feel you are talking about 1, while I am talking about 2.

That was a great way to clarify that, thanks. I suppose I would never refer to dps with cooldowns as sustained. I'm not aware of a class that bursts higher than us. That or I've never had the good fortune of meeting one.

IMO enhance is a completely viable class for progression, maybe less so for farm, but farm doesn't really matter. All in all the loss of a FET or an Ascendance is worth a well placed AG or Healing Tide, or even MWx5 Chain Heal.

Again, thanks for spelling it out for me.

- - - Updated - - -

I like the 4pc and I think it would be fine implemented as a mechanic, -maybe- buff it up to 10% proc chance, but other than that it's fine. It doesn't need to be hugely integral to our damage, it's just a nice thing that happens from time to time that's fun because my button lights up.

I don't think anyone is against it being integrated, I'm just worried that the devs are gonna decide that at lvl. 92 it becomes a passive ability gained, rather than just giving us something cool/better at 92 and integrating LL resets prior to WoD.