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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    You are creating sets to match up your perceived definition.
    It actually doesn't need a definition and it's not my definition.

    Pay to win is an English language phrase. It is defined exactly by what it's words mean.

    Pay
    verb: pay; 3rd person present: pays; past tense: paid; past participle: paid; gerund or present participle: paying
    1. give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred.

    To
    preposition: to
    1.used with the base form of a verb to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive, in particular. expressing purpose or intention.

    Win
    verb: win; 3rd person present: wins; past tense: won; past participle: won; gerund or present participle: winning
    1. be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict).

    The hyphens attached on message boards are largely unnecessary. The phrase is not cryptic- it means exactly what it says. Pay to win.

    You have to pay something and gain a win. Or winning, present participle.

    A "win" in an MMO can be something as small as getting a mount at level 20. A "win" can also be getting an epic drop while questing. MMOs are a series of wins, many small some large. Even cosmetic items can be considered a "win".
    This could not be true for any game ever made. It's impossible.

    What you are describing is personal perception.

    Gameplay is a objective reality. How one feels about gameplay is not.

    Time is an asset being sold.
    Yes. It could or could not make a difference to your win state based on game and game mode.

    Saving time in itself is not necessarily a win in all games or modes.

    But in MMOs time investment leads to greater rewards, taking a short cut in terms of time is almost cheating.
    Not always. There are gameplay modes where by one doesn't or isn't expressly rewarded for time invested or there is a factor beyond time that is a core function of a mode.

    So what is your actual definition of pay-to-win?
    The one informed by the English language.

    Quote Originally Posted by lakhesis View Post
    By your definition
    No. English.

    being able to pay to remove half the opponents pieces would not be pay-to-win in Chess.
    That could potentially be paying to win.

    The state of a win or process of winning is defined by the game rules itself. And as you said, losing pieces is not inherent to a win in Chess as the gameplay of Chess does not keep tick on how many pieces one has lost. But does depend on the capture or surrender of an opponent by way of their King piece.

    One would be buying a winning advantage. Which could potentially and most likely lead to a win and inequity in play. Now that would be pay to win.

    "Winning" is nearly always a consensus decision between the game and the players.
    It's actually only defined by the game. The player is free to give up or call it a day when they wish or when a point of perceived inevitable defeat is reached.

    Some games do end regardless of the player's attitude to their situation. Such as in solitaire or minesweeper.

    Some do not.

    The rules of a game define it's win state/conditions.

    Taking WoW - do you win when you clear the top raid on heroic?
    Yes. The gameplay informs such by rule and design.

    when you're in BiS gear?
    Yes. The gameplay informs such by rule and design.

    when you finish a season as gladiator?
    No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

    when your gear is better than any other player on your server?
    No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

    when you've collected all the rare drop pets?
    No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

    when you've got your perfect transmog set?
    No. The gameplay does not inform such by rule or design.

    Time is effort. If I spend more time at the gym, I expect to end up fitter then someone who puts in half the time. If I spend more time working on a game, I expect to do better than someone who spends the same amount of time at work & digs out their credit card in-game. In the short term, that might not work out - I could be less skilled, genetically gifted, whatever - but over the long term, time equates to practice equates to skill equates to success
    Inequity via time commitment is contra to fair competition. Time gating ignores mastery wholly.

    It could be that one player is supremely skilled but short on time. But if an asymmetrical field of play is set up such that he need overcome a factor of time and not skill, then the game state is allowing an inequity between two players of desperate skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post
    Actually, why not extend this logic to homes? Having a studio apartment with one bath should be free. But if you want a dishwasher, washing machines, an extra bedroom, what have you, charge quite a bit per month. Revolutionary.
    Apartments already exist as such.

    One of my first apartments had access to the bathroom, living room and bedroom included. Kitchen, washer/dryer and dishwasher were an extra cost per month. Or I could choose to use certain services as needed for a fee- $1.25 in change or so for the washer/dryer.

    It's not uncommon in large cities where living space is at a premium.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-12-26 at 03:37 PM.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    i think he meant server transfer, account transfer, name changing, race changing, faction changing, as well as pet and mount that are in the game file but you need to purchase access too. Every 2 years, you also need to buy "unlock" in the form of an expansion to have acess to new continent, dungeon, raid and be able to reach max level.
    Rift was my first other game after wow, and back when it had subfee I remember how amazed I was: Omg, I can change server for free??!!
    The first step out in a world where companies dont charge for everything they can=)
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    No. Let's not go there. We all know WoW giving out high amounts of content is a recent thing - less then a year ago.
    Interesting, because I said that having only played up until Cataclysm.

    Comparing WoW to f2p MMOs like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, the content WoW pushes out is hilariously richer. Guild Wars hasn't added anything bar the expansions. It's all there- and once you've done it all, there's nothing left to do.

  4. #284
    Pay to win, if there even is such a thing, ceases to exist when you stop caring what other players do. If someone buys a boost or whatever, who cares. It's their money.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Pay to win, if there even is such a thing, ceases to exist when you stop caring what other players do. If someone buys a boost or whatever, who cares. It's their money.
    They are still paying to 'win' technically.... you're just not bothered by it.

    It's the equivalent of me saying there's no such thing as poverty, because I don't care about people who have no money.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Pay to win, if there even is such a thing, ceases to exist when you stop caring what other players do. If someone buys a boost or whatever, who cares. It's their money.
    I care . When I play skyrim or Rome total war I don't care how other players play it and if they use cheats or trainers. But when I play MMO and I am part of a server/virtual world, I care what others do, I care what vanity items they have and how they got them, I care if they leveled with boosts or not. Not to mention that in order a "boost" have value and people want to buy it, you need to design the game in such way that it is "annoying" without the boost.

    Also I wouldn't call it "pay to win" but more accurate "pay to not lose". Here is a good article about it. I will not link the blog for it, as I don't want to be considered that I advertise the guy, I just say is not mine

    "Pay to win" microtransactions, when you can pay to overpower other players aren't successful. The players hate and avoid them, so paying players (whales) have no respect either, so they leave. But the opposite isn't just cosmetic microtransactions. You can buy spaceships in EVE by buying PLEX and spend the ISK on ships. Or on implants to get more skillpoints. You can buy faster XP gain and gold tanks in World of Tanks. You can buy faster XP and IP gains and champions in League of Legends. Yet these games aren't considered "pay to win". What are they then? Let me coin a new term "Pay not to lose". To understand the difference, we must understand winning and losing in an MMO. These games doesn't have a "game over, you lost" screen or a nice endgame cinematics celebrating your victory. There is constant progression in the games, you gain XP, skillpoint, wealth, gear. There can be bumps on the path, minor setbacks when you wipe all raid on a boss or lose a battle. But you grow and grow.

    So does everyone else. The speed of growing varies between players. The average or the median defines the "decent player". Not too bad, but not great either. Below him there are is the "n00b". Above him, the "l33t". "Pay to win" games allow you to buy your way to the "l33t" by getting upgrades that matches or outperforms what the best can get. "Pay not to lose" games on the other hand allow you to buy your way out from "n00b" into the "decent".

    It's not really hard to get tank XP in World of Tanks to upgrade your tank and don't run around in a weak stock tank. But you can completely skip that by farming XP in a gold tank and converting it. Average players both fly ships they like in EVE and farm for it. Flying a battlecruiser won't make you exceptional. However paying money will save you from the farming part. You lost it? Replace it instantly! Playing with a champion you have is what every League of Legends player do. You want to play with a champion you don't have, no need to farm with your old, buy it instantly!

    "Pay to win" means you can't beat a whale. "Pay to not lose" games on the other hand give no such advantage because there is no such thing as "competition for mediocre status". The whale is hiding between the countless average players, flying under the radar.
    Last edited by papajohn4; 2013-12-26 at 04:58 PM.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  7. #287
    Pretty sure they already have done away with subscription based games, at least the good ones. I have 6 MMOs installed and none of them charge a fee (EQ, Aion, Rift, Tera, SW:ToR, and GW2)

  8. #288
    Comparing WoW to f2p MMOs like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, the content WoW pushes out is hilariously richer.
    Guild wars is not F2P and "richer" is subjective. I don't consider a new raid and a handful of generic time gated daily's every 5 months "richer"

    Guild Wars hasn't added anything bar the expansions. It's all there- and once you've done it all, there's nothing left to do.
    Guild wars is no longer getting updates because of GW2 however before that your statement is 100% untrue. They had content patches in between expansions and end game activity's after you complete the story such as dungeons and replay missions that are harder and farming for gear, among other things.
    Last edited by zito; 2013-12-26 at 05:22 PM.
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

    I received a day one ORAS demo code. I am a chosen one.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    Comparing WoW to f2p MMOs like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2, the content WoW pushes out is hilariously richer.
    umm what? Everquest still pumps out expansions at around 2 per year. Rift has lots of content updates. In my experience WoW is pretty slow at releasing content. Also the content they release makes the previous tiers useless so its counterproductive. If you only have 1 viable tier then the others arent really content because people dont do them anymore.

  10. #290
    Guild wars is interesting, the game that is never on sale, even if not being updated. GW2 sees way more sales, you can probably get all wow expansions to a smaller cost than you can get all the guild wars one. Guild wars is available on steam, though noone ever speaks about it, and I've checked several steam sales but never a single percentage off on Guild wars. Why? Mystery. A game not being updated, if you were ever annoyed by noticing an invisible wall in wow well, Guild wars got enough invisible walls for your entire neighbourhood to go crazy about, and loading screens around every corner... and no jumping. Yea, nothing you can really charge that much for anymore. I would say 10dollars max for all expansions in a bundle, 14 dollars a piece is madness. Noone understands why...
    I guess they could charge a little pre GW2 launch, because you could farm hall of fame stuff for GW2 in GW, and I bet you still can, but come on.. the game is not worth 14 dollars a piece.
    So, guild wars is madness in terms of cost, I agree. And I agree that reading on website you obviously see the game isn't updated anymore.
    However GW2 is updated, perhaps not fast in spvp field but pve gets serious attention. Rift got many updates, sure not same amount as they were known for in the past... but we all know they facerolled wow in terms of content the cata period, and I play warframe now and they got more updates than Im able to keep up with :P Wow isn't the only one who can provide regular content updates anymore, and they also showed failure in that field many times before, but they do charge a lot for their content... and you can like wow content updates more because you like the game, but it has nothing to do with amount and overall quality.
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  11. #291
    I don't really like f2p with micro or subscription, both try milking the crap out of you, if its not wow with its meagre content updates then charging for expansions on top of what you already pay you have the other side of the spectrum, a built in store with the ability to inject 1000s of irl cash for cosmetics and QoL boosts/improvements.

    rift i think is alright but the idea of pumping a near endless supply of cash into the game so you can 'get it all' is just as bad as paying for a subscription for content you end up having to buy anyway.

    subscription/f2p aren't very different from one another in the long run. the one thing fp2w/micro has over subscription is the ability to play the game albeit gimped but you can at least run through the game to max level a couple of times before deciding if you want to commit or not.

  12. #292
    rift i think is alright but the idea of pumping a near endless supply of cash into the game so you can 'get it all' is just as bad as paying for a subscription for content you end up having to buy anyway.
    You get "all of it" in Rift for free. There is no content that is barred via cash shop. The cost to unlock every account feature is roughly $30- a one time fee.

    Additionally everything in the cash shop can be earned or bought using in game gold. At nearly the same rate as when Rift was sub based. They didn't decrease the rate of gains from the normal pre-F2P Rift game. Some rewards were increased.

    Lastly there is no possible way to gain the best equipment or access the top tiers of content via cash shop. You have to raid, progressively in most cases, through the entire content tier to even have a shot at the best equipment. While everything in the open world is not only free but offers horizontal progression for it's tier- again, for free.

    I've played the game since it's 3rd alpha state without taking a hiatus. It's nearly identical in experience.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-12-26 at 06:50 PM.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    I don't really like f2p with micro or subscription, both try milking the crap out of you, if its not wow with its meagre content updates then charging for expansions on top of what you already pay you have the other side of the spectrum, a built in store with the ability to inject 1000s of irl cash for cosmetics and QoL boosts/improvements.

    rift i think is alright but the idea of pumping a near endless supply of cash into the game so you can 'get it all' is just as bad as paying for a subscription for content you end up having to buy anyway.

    subscription/f2p aren't very different from one another in the long run. the one thing fp2w/micro has over subscription is the ability to play the game albeit gimped but you can at least run through the game to max level a couple of times before deciding if you want to commit or not.
    That's the thing with subscriptions, people feel obligated to play because they paid for that month. Some people might live in mmos today, but I think casuals are becoming more common. People with limited game time, the old wow players grew up and got work and family and stuff like that. Being able to sometimes just play an hour or two a week doesn't cut it for subfee, then it's easier to choose games without subfee, that they can just jump in and play whenever they got time off. I got many friends that cut down heavy on gaming because of lack of time, they would never invest in a subfee game because they play far from enough to consider it worth it, it's much easier to get them to try f2p games. And same for myself, I play so little today so I see no point in paying subfee, and well... I also see no current subfee game worth the money really :P But you all get what Im talking about right? That subfee comes with some sort of obligation, that you need to play a certain amount to get your moneys worth out of the fee.
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    You get "all of it" in Rift for free. There is no content that is barred via cash shop. The cost to unlock every account feature is roughly $30- a one time fee.

    Additionally everything in the cash shop can be earned or bought using in game gold. At nearly the same rate as when Rift was sub based. They didn't decrease the rate of gains from the normal pre-F2P Rift game. Some rewards were increased.

    Lastly there is no possible way to gain the best equipment or access the top tiers of content via cash shop. You have to raid, progressively in most cases, through the entire content tier to even have a shot at the best equipment. While everything in the open world is not only free but offers horizontal progression for it's tier- again, for free.

    I've played the game since it's 3rd alpha state without taking a hiatus. It's nearly identical in experience.
    yeah i was playing a couple of months ago, i have to admit to me it felt like a lot of the stuff in there you could only get effectively from buying it outright, the drops on some of the things in there must be incredibly low. but grinding plat is very slow and dull, its a special snowflake rift, you have the choice of grinding like crazy or putting money into the game and getting some of the rarer stuff quicker. I bought it on steam during the release week but juggling 3 mmos was impossible so i had to shelve it, still if i want the SL souls i have to pay or spend probably a month grinding over 3k plat. then when 3.0 releases with another 4 souls ill have to do the same again if i want to try them all. come 3.0 i'm looking at shelling out probably something like £50 for all 8 souls or spending a good few weeks at least grinding solid and hoping i can buy a rex for 1300. I don't knock it, i think rift is probably the best f2p mmo on the market, the time sink for f2p though is phenomenal.

    @tea
    Its a good point, i feel most mmos will be F2p eventually, it usually is more cost effective, when i had my wow sub i always tried getting the most out of each month, sometimes playing for 40+ hrs a week when your playing free you don't have to worry about your time slowly chipping away when your not playing. i think subscriptions would be more appealing in that case if it actually counted the time your logged in, i hear they do that in Asia the sub time only ticks down when your actually playing. if i was running my own mmo i would totally do it that way regardless of good business or not it seems fairer to the customer especially when lots of ppl lead unpredictable lives when you get things popping up irl and end up not being able to play your mmo for a week or 2 you lose out.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2013-12-26 at 07:18 PM.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Pay to win, if there even is such a thing, ceases to exist when you stop caring what other players do. If someone buys a boost or whatever, who cares. It's their money.
    Efforts should be equal. Any mob I kill should give equal XP to everyone else (BoA is ok as long as it's not shop purchasable).

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by igniter View Post
    Efforts should be equal. Any mob I kill should give equal XP to everyone else (BoA is ok as long as it's not shop purchasable).
    Well tbh they should just make questing and leveling more interesting, so people don't feel such boredom to plow through it and need to buy xp pots. So many games fail in this field, and tbh not that many people love questing and leveling, perhaps on the first char but not on the second...
    I can honestly say I hate questing, Rift... wow... boredom of death. Star wars was amazing, but the travelling between places were not, and I think they increased travel time for f2p-players as well... *ZzzzZZzz*. I want fights and action, I like warframe pve, I liked big instant adventures, I like big dynamic events, things to keep me awake. It's rare to come by, that's why it's good with pvp leveling, even if they usually provide much less xp.
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  17. #297
    Path of Exile. Totally free. The only things that can be purchased are cosmetic changes and extra stash tabs (you are given 6 free).

    I can't believe more people don't know about or haven't tried the game. It's the most in-depth and revolutionary game in years. The sheer number of possibilities for character development is mind boggling.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Vvulf View Post
    Path of Exile. Totally free. The only things that can be purchased are cosmetic changes and extra stash tabs (you are given 6 free).

    I can't believe more people don't know about or haven't tried the game. It's the most in-depth and revolutionary game in years. The sheer number of possibilities for character development is mind boggling.
    As far as I understand it's standard pve with standard questing, nothing gamebreaking. And it got pvp that sucks :P I would have tried it if I was more into stale pve games, and as far as I understand it's better than diablo 3 for a cheaper cost. But I also understand many people are in fact trying it, we got a rather decent alive poe-thread in this forum
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  19. #299
    I feel like it should depend on how much money the devs put into creating the game. If the devs for example, spend like 3 million dollars, then maybe they should have a sub fee, plus a box fee. Those MMO's that you buy once and theres no sub fee would be up to the devs, and same with the F2P market, but theres always a in game store for those.


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  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    yeah i was playing a couple of months ago, i have to admit to me it felt like a lot of the stuff in there you could only get effectively from buying it outright, the drops on some of the things in there must be incredibly low. but grinding plat is very slow and dull, its a special snowflake rift, you have the choice of grinding like crazy or putting money into the game and getting some of the rarer stuff quicker.
    I am not sure what you are talking about. The only drops I can think of in line with what you describe are the holiday/festival drops. Which are cosmetic for the most part or alt gear.

    The mounts tied to festivals, which run monthly, are historically very rare. Some still can not be bought and are not seen often in the towns.

    Gear is based on token turn ins. Which is the same rate as pre-F2P.

    If you want to be more specific about what "drops" you are talking about then perhaps I can elaborate. Or maybe I am overlooking an aspect of the game.

    still if i want the SL souls i have to pay or spend probably a month grinding over 3k plat. then when 3.0 releases with another 4 souls ill have to do the same again if i want to try them all.
    A few pages ago, I detailed the entire cost of Rift for all content and account unlocks. It's roughly $30USD, and it's all account wide.

    The SL souls are technicality less than $20USD in the cash shop. And none of those souls are required to access in game content. So the whole of the game is still given to your freely without being diminished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vvulf View Post
    Path of Exile. Totally free. The only things that can be purchased are cosmetic changes and extra stash tabs (you are given 6 free).

    I can't believe more people don't know about or haven't tried the game. It's the most in-depth and revolutionary game in years. The sheer number of possibilities for character development is mind boggling.
    Path of Exile is also one of the most complex and considered games on the current PC platform. It might be one of the greatest games ever made from a gameplay and mechanics standpoint.

    I know of no game in Path of Exile's genre of finer and more detailed gameplay and mechanics. And I am hard pressed to name any game in any genre save Eve and a few mechwarrior games that equal Path of Exile's complication and considered design.

    It is also worth noting that Path of Exile freely gives players not only 6 or so stash tabs but also allows 20 character [iirc] with no limitation on account creation either.

    As far as I understand it's standard pve with standard questing, nothing gamebreaking.
    Path of Exile is an Action-RPG, ARPG.

    It may be your understanding is faulty or your wording poor.

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