They have seriously messed up something in mop.

[ComputerNerd]

mop is alt unfriendly regardless of the 496 drops and burdens. guilds don't want toons without cloak and that's 3-4 months of farming old lfrs for RNG drops per toon(that's with them reducing the valor needed to 3 weeks before even reaching the ToT tedium)

It was not the game saying you need the cloak.
That is the players, the community making it alt-unfriendly.
Not the game.

[Deleted]

It was not the game saying you need the cloak.
That is the players, the community making it alt-unfriendly.
Not the game.

And what does it change if it comes from the community? Result is the same. They could have made the cloak purchaseable for alts for like 20k or something.

[Shakari]

LFR is not suitable for alt-catch-up. It just does not compare to what was there before LFR, regardless of what you say. Being able to enter SoO LFR is not having "caught up".

LFR is rather good at catch up, I prefer it in many ways to the older systems. And being able to enter the newest tier of content is very much caught up and you can now raid current content you have er caught up lol

[Deleted]

LFR is not suitable for alt-catch-up. It just does not compare to what was there before LFR, regardless of what you say. Being able to enter SoO LFR is not having "caught up".

Neither was "being able to enter 5-man heroics" you still had to have luck with drops or grind out your tokens/points. It's the same.

[Deleted]

LFR is rather good at catch up, I prefer it in many ways to the older systems. And being able to enter the newest tier of content is very much caught up and you can now raid current content you have er caught up lol

LFR is not a good experience. It's full of toxic players and is only faceroll. I feel caught-up when I reach the content that is fun to play and not when I "see the content". Tbh I would rather not see SoO at all than experiencing it in LFR. And nowadays it's WAY slower than it has ever been before since BC. What happens when you reach SoO LFR and have bad luck with drops, don't get any burdens etc? You are stuck in LFR, nobody will EVER take you to flex or normals. That's not caught up.

Neither was "being able to enter 5-man heroics" you still had to have luck with drops or grind out your tokens/points. It's the same.

ToC, ICC HCs, ZA/ZG and Badges/Justice/Valors provided you with compareably better gear than timeless isle and lfr do today at a much faster rate as you could spam those. Furthermore I didn't say 5-man-hcs are a state I would call you have caught-up.

[Sacrelis]

Alt-unfriendly? what? I have been lvling toons left and right, not once have I even felt slightly inconvenienced. Is it because I've been through TBC? Now that's alt-unfriendly, but then again I thought everyone should know by now gearing alts are just side projects. A little difficulty curve in gearing up is widely acceptable, gives us something to do. There's no race at all.

[Jester Joe]

Neither was "being able to enter 5-man heroics" you still had to have luck with drops or grind out your tokens/points. It's the same.

Except LFR is once a week, and a lot longer than a 5 man heroic would be. 5 mans you can queue up for over and over again through the random queue and hope to get the item you want, or worse case scenario, queue up daily for it specifically and hope for your drop.

Otherwise, in the gist of it, they are sorta similar, just 5 mans being better for time and chances.

[Deleted]

What happens when you reach SoO LFR and have bad luck with drops, don't get any burdens etc?

Same that happened to all the other expansions if you had bad luck with your drops, didn't have all tokens, enough valor or didn't have the right achievements. It's not the game that sets those limits, it's the other players.

In BC - in order to join a guild that was raiding endgame content beyond SSC (ilvl >128) you couldn't just join them after you dinged and ran some heroics - you had to join a "feeder" guild and work your way through Kara, gathering DKP so you could actually get *any* drops.

You also had attunements to do and dungeons were locked behind rep.

It wasn't faster and you were not "downing bosses" after max ding on your alt.

[Deleted]

Same that happened to all the other expansions if you had bad luck with your drops, didn't have all tokens, enough valor or didn't have the right achievements.

You could spam hcs. There was no such thing as being stuck because of RNG.

[Deleted]

Except LFR is once a week, and a lot longer than a 5 man heroic would be. 5 mans you can queue up for over and over again through the random queue and hope to get the item you want, or worse case scenario, queue up daily for it specifically and hope for your drop.

Otherwise, in the gist of it, they are sorta similar, just 5 mans being better for time and chances.

But regular 5-mans never gave you good enough loot to "catch-up" with raid teams, like the OP says. And Heroic 5-mans were on lockout as well.
Cata's End Time dungeons were exception to this.. and I guess that's what most people are referring to.. but they also had that RNG element (yes, you could spam them until you died of boredom - which is probably why Blizzard moved away from that model of "catching up").

[Deleted]

You could go random hcs all day since LFD was introduced. Lockout basically didn't exist anymore.

[Darsithis]

LFR is not suitable for alt-catch-up. It just does not compare to what was there before LFR, regardless of what you say. Being able to enter SoO LFR is not having "caught up".

Timeless Isle catches you up. Being able to skip heroic 5 mans and all previous tiers of LFR to get into the final one the nigth you ding is catching up. I was referring to both.

The previous tiers of LFR were changed to be catch-ups for ToT and SoO. Timeless Isle is the ultimate catch-up mechanic.

[Mirishka]

I don't think I get what you mean. Nothing about MoP's gearing has particularly changed from any previous expansion except:

- You can upgrade items with VP
- You can get bonus rolls in raids to potentially win another item

That's about it. Wrath & Cata both featured JP, near & heroic dungeon equivalent gear along with VP gear on par with the raid tier. Every tier this VP gear changed. You've been able to jump into the later tiers since early Wrath.

And referencing "killing bosses first day of ding" is completely wrong. No one except for world-first guilds were "killing bosses first day of ding", which I assume you mean your first character hitting 90 upon MoP release. If you're referring to later alts, who cares? You've already downed most or all of those bosses on your main, why the hell would it matter if your alts can do the same? As it is, LFR & Flex are gated weeks apart so no one goes into LFR the first day a tier is released. Once I've already gone through MV, HoF, ToES, ToT, and SoO on my main why would I want to do it again for the other 8 90's I have?

So, in essence, your post makes no sense.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Hablion]

The mix of Timeless Isle stuff (world bosses and token gear) and LFR SoO really is a descent starting point for getting gear. As someone with a lot of alts it really is not as bad as people making it out to be. Regarding the Legendary Cloak though it is fine too sure it takes a while but that is part of the fun and pride of earning it. I would also like to note Compared to past legendary items it is a heck of a lot easier and quicker to obtain.

While I understand a lot of peoples concerns it just takes time and without something to work towards in this game be it a legendary or getting that gear for your first flex/normal what is there to do? People get angry and frustrated they may even lash out but they still play the game.

[Deleted]

Timeless Isle catches you up. Being able to skip heroic 5 mans and all previous tiers of LFR to get into the final one the nigth you ding is catching up.

No, LFR is still part of the catch-up.

[Darsithis]

No, LFR is still part of the catch-up.

Then what is your point?

I have a monk that dinged 90 and used Timeless Isle to skip straight into SoO. I never set foot with him in MV, HoF, ToES, and ToT. That's catching up.

[Jester Joe]

But regular 5-mans never gave you good enough loot to "catch-up" with raid teams, like the OP says. And Heroic 5-mans were on lockout as well.
Cata's End Time dungeons were exception to this.. and I guess that's what most people are referring to.. but they also had that RNG element (yes, you could spam them until you died of boredom - which is probably why Blizzard moved away from that model of "catching up").

While that's true, it definitely was better than using LFR in my opinion at least.
Even with End Time dungeons though, there was still LFR as a step before PUGs would consider.
I don't know anyway, I just was pointing out that 5 man heroics were easier than LFR, I forget what my initial reason was besides boredom.

[Deleted]

Then what is your point?

I have a monk that dinged 90 and used Timeless Isle to skip straight into SoO. I never set foot with him in MV, HoF, ToES, and ToT. That's catching up.

My point is, LFR is still catch-up while you say it's over as soon as you can enter SoO LFR.

yes, you could spam them until you died of boredom - ...

Boredom is not the point of this discussion. Every catch-up has been boring - always. At least for me. Spamming HCs was boring, running old raids in BC was kinda boring, timeless isle is also boring as well as LFR. The problem is, going through LFR is way worse in these regards than random HCs.

[Vargur]

So, in essence, your post makes no sense.

Gearing is easier than in any previous expansion.

[Darsithis]

My point is, LFR is still catch-up while you say it's over as soon as you can enter SoO LFR.

It is over if you can enter SoO. Nothing in the previous tiers is worth anything.