Thread: Keen vs. Artful

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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Keen vs. Artful

    What's up with higher end heroic raiders using Artful gems in red sockets? I always though it's better to use Keen because secondary stats would be better than int. And it's not about being over hit cap or anything like that. I'm wondering if it's some kind of special condition in which int becomes better than secondaries at higher gear levels.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire JV Chequer's Avatar
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    Just personal preference, the difference is minimal.

    If u like more base dmg, go after Artful, it u want more haste or crit, goes for Keen.
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    Field Marshal
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    Afaik keen is a dps gain until hit capped.

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    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crysilaero View Post
    Afaik keen is a dps gain until hit capped.
    That's what I thought before I saw Brusalk using Artful. I even messaged him on MMO-C about it, but he ignored me. Outrageous, right? Maybe not enough time to answer every "noob" and her stupid questions.

  5. #5
    Completely dependent on how many pieces you have with hit on it. For example I can only use a few keens because I have 3 or 4 pieces with about 8-900 hit on them (before reforging obviously) and adding more exp is just overkill. Once I replace the Thok off hand and finally get the bracers off spoils I've been after for months now I can drop some artfuls for keens. All just a balancing act for the gear YOU have. Less pieces with hit = more keens for higher secondary gain. Possibly why brus didn't give you a response, he would have to look at every single piece of gear you have and do math to figure out how many to use.

    Not sure if there is a site that will tell you how many keens to use whenever you get a new piece of gear but I've just been manually swapping stuff out and seeing results in reforgelite and gemming accordingly. Hopefully this helps you come up with a game plan to figure out how many keens you can use.
    Last edited by Betrayerx; 2013-12-26 at 09:02 PM.
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  6. #6
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayerx View Post
    Completely dependent on how many pieces you have with hit on it.
    As I said already:
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    And it's not about being over hit cap or anything like that.
    I'll say it in a detailed way now: I have seen people using Artful who are also reforging into hit, or not reforging out of it.

    EDIT:
    Possibly why brus didn't give you a response, he would have to look at every single piece of gear you have and do math to figure out how many to use.
    I totally didn't ask him that though, I'm not that new to WoW or anything, just want to know the reason why int becomes better for some people even though secondaries are supposed to be better.
    Last edited by Deyana; 2013-12-26 at 07:12 PM.

  7. #7
    Personal preference. There's no real measurable difference, either way.

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV Chequer View Post
    Just personal preference, the difference is minimal.

    If u like more base dmg, go after Artful, it u want more haste or crit, goes for Keen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Personal preference. There's no real measurable difference, either way.
    Alright, I'll go with this explanation until someone appears who might know some additional details.
    Thanks for the answers so far.

  9. #9
    It's just whatever gets you closest to 15% exactly after a certain point. Generally speaking as you get closer and closer to max ilvl while trying to maintain certain stat priorities you'll go more and more over hit cap if you use keens along with any reforge. This is entirely dependent on what gear you're wearing as you may have the absolute minimum amount of hit pieces (belt, 1 ring, neck) or just the right pieces to hit really close to or exactly 15% with a bunch of keens or it may work out better to reforge a few pieces to hit exactly 15% while using a bunch of artfuls.

    In brusalks case I'm going to assume he got some upgrades just before or around the holidays and just hasn't taken the time to fix his setup yet as there are a lot of things that don't make sense with his gemming / reforge(note how he has 2 lightning gems in his shoulders and 3 artfuls in yellow sockets). 2 minutes fooling around with his char in askmrrobot and I got him to 15.05 hit rating with +868 mastery +606 crit rating while maintaining the 10124 immolate tick (only reason I imagine he's going that high with haste) at the cost of 560 int and 265 haste. Realistically he'd probably see absolutely no difference in dps "fixing" it though so he might just not care.

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    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    In brusalks case I'm going to assume he got some upgrades just before or around the holidays and just hasn't taken the time to fix his setup yet
    The Artful thing is totally not about that though, I messaged him on 23rd of November so he's been confusing me for over a month with his full Artful now.

  11. #11
    Again I'm just assuming when it comes to him specifically because his gemming / reforge has no specific trend to it.

    There's no reason he has 2 lightning gems in his shoulders when they could be sensei's, there's no reason he has 3 artful gems in yellow sockets when they could be fractured gems unless he values or prefers artful over fractured(int over mastery) but in that case he wouldn't have fractured gems in all 3 of his prismatic sockets or artfuls in any of his red sockets. There's no reason hes .18 over hit cap when he could be .05 over hit cap, I really can't make sense of any of his current set up outside of pure apathy because the reality that any of that min-maxing he might do will be such a tiny tiny tiny difference in the massive gaping "margin of error" that realistically he'll see no tangible difference.

    I understand some of the less hardcore players on this forum look to brusalk because he made a guide thread for absolute basics and he actually tries to parse (higher end raiders understand how much padding that entails especially as a warlock) but what he does isn't 100% bible. He's a good player for sure but that doesn't mean he's doing everything 100% correct 100% of the time. No one does including myself.

    You asked why you see hardcore raiders using artfuls instead of keen, as I already said it's because of hit cap. Eventually your gear gets to a point more often than not where you can't reforge the hit into the stats you want so you use artful gems instead. That's all there is to it.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2013-12-26 at 08:20 PM.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I understand some of the less hardcore players on this forum look to brusalk because he made a guide thread for absolute basics
    I personally look to him because he's at 97% epeen while I'm just 70% (it's not bad, especially considering that I'm not in a hardcore guild and I do all the fights with one default setup when it comes to talents, glyphs, reforges etc, but it could be better).
    Last edited by Deyana; 2013-12-26 at 08:40 PM.

  13. #13
    Well if you want more detailed answers ask more detailed questions lol. Link armories for these "high end" raiders that are using all artful gems in their reds during their normal farm days/times. What specs are they gemming/forging for that you are looking at. The difference isn't going to be monumental in the end anyway. You will not have a 10k swing in favor of gemming all keen or all artful however if advice from someone who is well ahead of where you are isn't appreciated then simply whisper brusalk and wait patiently for a response. I'm just telling you what I've known this tier about keen gems and how many to use according to the amount of hit you have on your gear which seems to be the question you are alluding to. There is no other option for red gem slots and there is literally no other reason to use keen gems. You simply get more secondaries, which if you are close to a threshold may seem worth it. Just checking someone's armory page to see what gems they have is never really a good indicator anyway unless you catch them during the day that they are farming because top end raiders are usually always swapping stuff out and playing around with gear. Sometimes they just log out before making everything perfect again, but then that makes people freak out about new ways to forge/gem. Calm down and take a deep breath.

    Btw here is a link to Brusalk's armory for reference, he has 4 hit pieces, 2 rings bracers and neck. Once he gets rid of the bracers for spoils and a thok ring you will see him swap to some keen most likely to get a little more mastery or crit. I'm also seeing him use some haste hit gems which I think is questionable for destro but I'm a Demo MS and am only playing Destro atm for HGarrosh prog so maybe it is correct but he would have to answer for that. If I cared about Destro I may even swap out my keens for artful too because the forging is so different between the 2 specs.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Brusalk/simple

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also I see that you're on Sparks server, why not just whisper him in-game and ask about it? I'm sure he would give a perfectly good explanation of the mindset behind those gemming decisions. I don't see the point of coming to the mmo-c forums to ask these questions when you have the best guild in the world on your server and have the ability to get information directly from their locks. Do you want to hear an answer from Brus directly because he wrote the Destro guide?
    Last edited by Betrayerx; 2013-12-26 at 08:55 PM.
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  14. #14
    Long story short - Brusalk has already cleared this tier and likely doesn't care to put any effort into min/maxing 100%. He is also probably screwing around with different specs to entertain himself while everything is on farm status til WoD comes out.

    In general, I find people worry far too much about gear/gemming.reforging. Every little bit really does help but the reason you are at 70% and he is at 97% has much much more to do with personal skill, a deep understanding of lock mechanics, understanding of fight mechanics and just flat out better gear (in descending order of importance imho) than what gem/reforges he used that may account for 1 or 2k dps.

  15. #15
    This tier is extremely boring to farm and people are doing things like swapping out tier pieces for better stat optimization to see if the bonuses are even good. Just seems like a pointless discussion at this point in the tier.
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  16. #16
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    Every little bit really does help but the reason you are at 70% and he is at 97% has much much more to do with personal skill, a deep understanding of lock mechanics, understanding of fight mechanics and just flat out better gear (in descending order of importance imho) than what gem/reforges he used that may account for 1 or 2k dps.
    A bit offtopic, but add the condition of your group too somewhere there... None of the dps'es in my group are even close to 70%, the second one after me is 51% or so. It doesn't matter that much but I've noticed that the better players I raid with, the better my own dps. I still love them though, and want to add that 1 or 2k dps to help ourselves more. :3

    EDIT:
    Do you want to hear an answer from Brus directly because he wrote the Destro guide?
    No, because he's at 97% epeen.
    Whispering in game would probably be too annoying tho, I'd imagine the Method locks would want to mind their own business...
    Last edited by Deyana; 2013-12-26 at 09:11 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    As I said already:

    I'll say it in a detailed way now: I have seen people using Artful who are also reforging into hit, or not reforging out of it.

    EDIT:

    I totally didn't ask him that though, I'm not that new to WoW or anything, just want to know the reason why int becomes better for some people even though secondaries are supposed to be better.
    You have no evidence to back up this claim about int being better for some people vs balancing the amount of hit on gear vs secondary stat gains by gemming exp. Generally you want to gain as many secondary stats as you can while still being hit capped. Jelloslock was one of the first I saw to gem keens back in t15 to gain more mastery when demo was the fotm spec. WoD will change things for the better because instead of min maxing with reforging personal skill will be the ultimate min/max agent, unless of course RPPM sticks around.
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  18. #18
    @betrayer: Isn't pointless to the OP because he hasn't so much as killed malkorok, he's miles away from the hard bosses. Don't stress this guy too much as you can give him the correct answer 10 ways to sunday (as I have in other topics as well) and basically if it doesn't come out of brusalk himself this guy doesn't believe you. Even as a guy who killed heroic Garrosh when less than .1% of the overall raiding community in the entire world had heroic Garrosh down he still never believes the answers I give him.

    It doesn't stop me from *trying* to give him the correct answers either way.

    @Deyana: People whisper members of my guild all the time asking about different things and for the most part people are down to earth and have no problem taking 2 seconds to answer a question if they're not busy doing something. I'm sure sparkuggz would be the same way and would be one of thee best people in the world to ask any warlock questions. If you're really uncomfortable sending him a whisper you can always just leave a note in an in game mail and send it to him and see if he answers as well.

    Sparkuggz even has his own website:

    http://sparkuggz.com/category/guides/

    where he takes time to make some great guides etc so I *highly* doubt he is unaccustomed or unwilling to answer a random whisper ingame.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2013-12-26 at 09:27 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    A bit offtopic, but add the condition of your group too somewhere there... None of the dps'es in my group are even close to 70%, the second one after me is 51% or so. It doesn't matter that much but I've noticed that the better players I raid with, the better my own dps. I still love them though, and want to add that 1 or 2k dps to help ourselves more. :3

    EDIT:

    No, because he's at 97% epeen.
    Whispering in game would probably be too annoying tho, I'd imagine the Method locks would want to mind their own business...
    Looking at farm logs and epeen right now when people have been farming for so long is not going to help you with progression, everyone plays differently in farm. It's not about maximizing your dps on the right targets, it's about padding and boosting numbers on anything and everything. You may not NEED to put dmg into a particular add that is getting dragged away to be tanked but you can still havoc it and CB your primary target and your numbers will look pretty during farm. On progression wasting that global for havoc is something you should not be doing if dps is tight and you need to make enrage, etc

    As for whispering Spark in game, you will never know if you never do it........

    I didn't think I would ever get to talk to Zinnin or Shinafae and now I have them both on realid and speak with them regularly. Zinnin and I bounce ideas off each other and mess around with some of his theory crafting ideas.
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  20. #20
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Don't stress this woman too much as you can give her the correct answer 10 ways to sunday (as I have in other topics as well) and basically if it doesn't come out of brusalk himself this woman doesn't believe you. Even as a guy who has 6 itemlevels on her while sitting at 65% epeen she still never believes the answers I give her.
    Fixed that for you. No hard feelings. :3
    But yeah I guess it doesn't even matter. Sorry for being curious.

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