Thread: Keen vs. Artful

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  1. #21
    Being curious is fine but you can't discredit people who try and give you answers (especially ones that are already done with the tier or are on the final boss (just fyi I'm a higher ilvl than Brus). If the person you wanted an answer from doesn't give you one (xmas was yesterday after all and people do things and go places...) but other people do take a look and see if the information is from a credible source. If you bring questions to a PUBLIC forum you will get answers from people that may or may not be qualified to answer but it doesn't mean you can just write them off, especially since it took me all of 30 seconds to find out that you can whisper Spark for info. If you're nervous about asking him going to a public forum shows that you aren't that shy so man up a bit and see what happens.....
    Last edited by Betrayerx; 2013-12-26 at 10:24 PM.
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  2. #22
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayerx View Post
    Being curious is fine but you can't discredit people who try and give you answers (especially ones that are already done with the tier or on the final boss, just fyi I'm a higher ilvl than Brus). If the person you wanted an answer from doesn't give you one (xmas was yesterday after all and people do things and go places...) but other people do take a look and see if the information is from a credible source. If you bring questions to a PUBLIC forum you will get answers from people that may or may not be qualified to answer but it doesn't mean you can just write them off, especially since it took me all of 30 seconds to find out that you can whisper Spark for info. If you're nervous about asking him going to a public forum shows that you aren't that shy so man up a bit and see what happens.....
    I don't think I was being disrespectful to anyone here except maybe in my last post before this one, but he totally asked for it.
    I just rule out some possibilities that don't apply (like the Artful users being over hit cap if they used Keen - this is not the case and I mentioned it in my first post too).
    So far the "they don't care about minmaxing for farm content" theory makes most sense.
    And about whispering vs. forum: I am kind of shy actually but in forum I can be sure to get at least some replies, and that's what forums are made for... I'm just afraid that if I whispered Method warlocks I'd get ignored again like I did once.

  3. #23
    I don't really follow guides much, I just go by my personal simcraft weights. I choose artful over keen personally because I figure you can always reforge for more or less hit/expertise, but you cannot reforge for more intellect. Overall, I'll take higher intellect and hit cap through reforging. Personal opinion only.

    edit: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hilus/advanced is my armory.
    Last edited by Aethilus; 2013-12-26 at 10:41 PM.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    I don't think I was being disrespectful to anyone here except maybe in my last post before this one, but he totally asked for it.
    I just rule out some possibilities that don't apply (like the Artful users being over hit cap if they used Keen - this is not the case and I mentioned it in my first post too).
    So far the "they don't care about minmaxing for farm content" theory makes most sense.
    And about whispering vs. forum: I am kind of shy actually but in forum I can be sure to get at least some replies, and that's what forums are made for... I'm just afraid that if I whispered Method warlocks I'd get ignored again like I did once.
    How is the artful users being over cap not the case? If they are sitting on 15% hit right now with artful gems and 4 pieces with hit on it and then swap to 10 exp gems how would that not be an issue? I've done exactly that to see what would happen and went way over cap and had next to 0 secondary gain. I am not blowing smoke here when I say being that far over cap is going to not be worth the int loss. Most of the pieces are already hit/mastery so what would you reforge the hit into with all the excess? Crit? Reforging for crit is not worth it because you get SP and crit from Int. Make sense now?
    Last edited by Betrayerx; 2013-12-26 at 11:25 PM.
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  5. #25
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    To make it clear, I meant people who will not go over hit cap as long as they reforge out of hit while using Keen. And aren't all secondaries better than int then? Even the "crappy" crit which is actually about equal with haste? If only mastery was better than int, why wouldn't people just reforge everything they can to mastery and go full Artful anyway?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    That's what I thought before I saw Brusalk using Artful. I even messaged him on MMO-C about it, but he ignored me. Outrageous, right? Maybe not enough time to answer every "noob" and her stupid questions.
    Sorry.

    I didn't intend to ignore you, I apparently missed your PM somehow though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    The Artful thing is totally not about that though, I messaged him on 23rd of November so he's been confusing me for over a month with his full Artful now.
    I got some new gear around then and we didn't have the gems I ideally wanted in the g-bank so I just used what we had laying around. That on top of prepping for some utterly killer finals and then going into a super busy winter break has left me little time for WoW. I mostly just haven't gotten around to fixing my gems as it's a small thing for the time I'd have to invest to fix it atm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayerx View Post
    (just fyi I'm a higher ilvl than Brus)
    All this means is you've gotten more warforged at this point. That's just luck.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    To make it clear, I meant people who will not go over hit cap as long as they reforge out of hit while using Keen. And aren't all secondaries better than int then? Even the "crappy" crit which is actually about equal with haste? If only mastery was better than int, why wouldn't people just reforge everything they can to mastery and go full Artful anyway?
    In an ideal world you'd take the time to include gems into your hit-cap calculations to determine whether getting artful or keen would be worth more, depending on how far above hitcap you are. Keen would be best in the specific number of sockets needed to get you close (or on) hit cap, while artful would be best elsewhere. That's really just the extent of it.

    Personally, since we're on farm I'm not too worried about my gems to the point where I'd calculate that much, but on progression I would. Artful is easy as you can just use ReforgeLite to find the hitcap without worrying about losing too many gem stats.

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Thanks, Brusalk! My life is complete now.


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    Thanks, Brusalk! My life is complete now.

    No problem. Sorry again for missing your PM!

  9. #29
    Well that's the 25vs10 difference. I can't get a Kardriss to save my life so you have me beat there. Thank you though for confirming that it is mainly a hit cap thing as I suggested. Hopefully this means Deyanna will trust other people's answers now because it turns out we were correct.
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  10. #30
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayerx View Post
    Thank you though for confirming that it is mainly a hit cap thing as I suggested. Hopefully this means Deyanna will trust other people's answers now because it turns out we were correct.
    I was mostly curious why Brusalk and some others who are far from going over cap would use Artful. I could tell how much room to play with hit someone has by checking their gear in armory, you know, so if they really risk with exceeding hit cap, I would take it as a reason, of course. But as Brusalk said, he just took whatever gems he found without paying much attention to minmaxing, which was the theory that made most sense to me since it was presented here.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Betrayerx View Post
    Looking at farm logs and epeen right now when people have been farming for so long is not going to help you with progression, everyone plays differently in farm. It's not about maximizing your dps on the right targets, it's about padding and boosting numbers on anything and everything. You may not NEED to put dmg into a particular add that is getting dragged away to be tanked but you can still havoc it and CB your primary target and your numbers will look pretty during farm. On progression wasting that global for havoc is something you should not be doing if dps is tight and you need to make enrage, etc
    ^This guys post is one of the best things you can read to try and help your guild out. You shouldn't be looking at parses of guilds who killed a fight 3+ months ago when your guild is doing progression on it now. We kinda do malkorok differently with 18 more ilvls than when we originally killed over 3 months ago since it becomes shenanigans easy now.

    Also I had to have a guildy tell me about this whole proraiders thing cause I had no idea what you were talking about. That's pretty hilarious, thing only has 4 parses on there and requires me to have not sat from farm content for the past few months otherwise it ends up with incomplete data which is insufficient for ranking. You use this site and you even have insufficient data with all of 1 parse and you're saying your percentile I don't even. You see that asterisk next to your percentile? Read the note at the bottom about what it means.

    edit: oh good brusalk said the same thing as like 15 other people in this thread and now the OP believes it.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2013-12-27 at 12:23 AM.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    You see that asterisk next to your percentile? Read the note at the bottom about what it means.
    It means pretty much nothing, it's like those weird instruction manuals which make no sense but only exist so people won't sue the company if they screw up something. If it would really be as much off as you like to believe, the number would not even be there for us to see.

  13. #33
    Lmao, well this thread has run its course and you've gotten your answer several times including from the specific person you wanted it from.

    I'm not going to take the time and effort to learn the inner workings of a useless website to tell you why you're being silly.

    GL on your malkorok progression*.

    *no hostility intended

  14. #34
    Mechagnome Deyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Lmao, well this thread has run its course and you've gotten your answer several times including from the specific person you wanted it from.

    I'm not going to take the time and effort to learn the inner workings of a useless website to tell you why you're being silly.

    GL on your malkorok progression*.

    *no hostility intended
    Let me try to explain you this as well as I can...
    He gave two answers.
    1. Hit cap issues.
    2. Just being lazy to min-max all because of farm and minimal benefit from it anyway.

    1. was something I already knew (I turned 90 like... almost a year ago. I know what a hit cap is) yet you kept insisting it's the reason. Sure, I know there are people who do it for the hit cap, but my question was about the ones who are far from reaching it, because if they did it for hit cap, I could tell by looking at their gear.
    2. was the answer I was looking for, simple as that. And I never said I wouldn't believe it.

    P.S. thanks for the luck, but we will probably not have Malkorok down any time soon, too much bs going on, we don't even have a full team right now.
    Last edited by Deyana; 2013-12-27 at 12:51 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    Let me try to explain you this as well as I can...
    He gave two answers.
    1. Hit cap issues.
    1. was something I already knew (I turned 90 like... almost a year ago. I know what a hit cap is) yet you kept insisting it's the reason. Sure, I know there are people who do it for the hit cap, but my question was about the ones who are far from reaching it, because if they did it for hit cap, I could tell by looking at their gear.
    Multiple people gave you this same answer and you argued it wasn't to do with hit cap with the other guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    2. Just being lazy to min-max all because of farm and minimal benefit from it anyway.
    2. was the answer I was looking for, simple as that. And I never said I wouldn't believe it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I really can't make sense of any of his current set up outside of pure apathy because the reality that any of that min-maxing he might do will be such a tiny tiny tiny difference in the massive gaping "margin of error" that realistically he'll see no tangible difference.
    I gave you this answer as well with logic and reasoning behind it and he confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    What's up with higher end heroic raiders using Artful gems in red sockets? etc
    What you asked above^ was not what you wanted to know, which is what #1 answered, what you wanted to know was why ***brusalk's*** gemming and reforging was all fucked up. And you didn't want the answer from anyone else besides Brusalk. Which is why this thread had as much back and forth as it did when you should have just sent him another PM since you refused to accept any answer that wasn't directly from him.

  16. #36
    I think what we need is to have Brusalk copy/paste everything we have already said on this and post it from his account, then maybe it will sink in. Idk why saying "playing with hit cap" would get interpreted as a 576 only using expertise gems to REACH the hit cap. Keen are strictly used to gain secondary stats by reforging out of hit on the pieces of gear that have hit built in so that you can keep your hit cap, which is kind of important if you are playing Destro. The number of gems depend on the amount of innate hit on your gear. This is literally the only reason for using a gem that gives you spell hit, and at least 5 people said the same exact thing and then it got rehashed by the single person in the entire world that you would listen to. Please please please, if you have any questions like this in the future just wait patiently for the person you will accept an answer from to PM you back. There is no need to ask the entire community for an answer that you do not want to hear from anyone except one person.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deyana View Post
    Let me try to explain you this as well as I can...
    He gave two answers.
    1. Hit cap issues.
    2. Just being lazy to min-max all because of farm and minimal benefit from it anyway.

    1. was something I already knew (I turned 90 like... almost a year ago. I know what a hit cap is) yet you kept insisting it's the reason. Sure, I know there are people who do it for the hit cap, but my question was about the ones who are far from reaching it, because if they did it for hit cap, I could tell by looking at their gear.
    (
    What high end lock are you looking at that is far from reaching hit cap that plays Destro? Do you know what missing a CB would do to your dmg?
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  17. #37
    Moderator Alarinth's Avatar
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    Since the OP got the answer she wanted, we're going to lock this thread now, as there really isn't much more constructive discussion to be derived from this topic anymore. The answers are in line with what we already knew from the Destruction sticky, and posted by multiple different users of this fora already.
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