1. #1

    Garrosh 10m Normal - Logs & Issues with healing/damage taken

    Hello all. I'm not normally big on posting on the forums here, but I do seem to read them quite a bit. (I think the last time I posted I was still working on the first half of ToT.)

    Currently my raid group is 14/14 normal 10m SoO, and we're also working 25m normal where we are 13/14 and pushing Garrosh through phase 2.

    The log I'm wondering about is approximately what we do on a normal Monday evening when we clean up the Garrosh fight from our 25's failure to finish each week. I'm one of the two tanks we use for the 10m, but I dps on the 25s. I look at my gear compared to some other monk tanks I know and the differences aren't so drastic that I shouldn't be dying either from adds in phase 1 or any of the DoT the boss places on the tanks in p2/3.

    Can someone look at our logs and see if it's confirming my thoughts that the healing I receive just isn't enough from the healers? I feel that I do way too much self-healing on the fight that the healers just get too lax and don't either heal me enough, use Hand of Sacrifice, or any other targeted defensive CDs, but the paladin healer doesn't seem to think so. He seems to think that I just fall over, which I know is the case in p1 if I pull agro from the adds and they're behind me so I have to re-position or p3 where I've got the DoT rolling on me and adds chasing me around the room. I don't feel there's enough effort from the healers, but I need more information to confirm this.

    I also try to keep shuffle rolling constantly, but I know there are times where it has fallen off and that's been the cause of a death, but that's one of my problems to worry about.

    Here's the link to the log: www worldoflogs com /reports/1mpx424k4ylph879/dashboard/?s=3414&e=3955

    Any suggestions would be super appreciated.

    (P.s. It won't let me post links in the text apparently yet, so just remove the spaces for now, and put periods back into the URL for WOL.)

  2. #2
    Dreadlord PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffinz View Post
    Hello all. I'm not normally big on posting on the forums here, but I do seem to read them quite a bit. (I think the last time I posted I was still working on the first half of ToT.)

    Currently my raid group is 14/14 normal 10m SoO, and we're also working 25m normal where we are 13/14 and pushing Garrosh through phase 2.

    The log I'm wondering about is approximately what we do on a normal Monday evening when we clean up the Garrosh fight from our 25's failure to finish each week. I'm one of the two tanks we use for the 10m, but I dps on the 25s. I look at my gear compared to some other monk tanks I know and the differences aren't so drastic that I shouldn't be dying either from adds in phase 1 or any of the DoT the boss places on the tanks in p2/3.

    Can someone look at our logs and see if it's confirming my thoughts that the healing I receive just isn't enough from the healers? I feel that I do way too much self-healing on the fight that the healers just get too lax and don't either heal me enough, use Hand of Sacrifice, or any other targeted defensive CDs, but the paladin healer doesn't seem to think so. He seems to think that I just fall over, which I know is the case in p1 if I pull agro from the adds and they're behind me so I have to re-position or p3 where I've got the DoT rolling on me and adds chasing me around the room. I don't feel there's enough effort from the healers, but I need more information to confirm this.

    I also try to keep shuffle rolling constantly, but I know there are times where it has fallen off and that's been the cause of a death, but that's one of my problems to worry about.

    Here's the link to the log: www worldoflogs com /reports/1mpx424k4ylph879/dashboard/?s=3414&e=3955

    Any suggestions would be super appreciated.

    (P.s. It won't let me post links in the text apparently yet, so just remove the spaces for now, and put periods back into the URL for WOL.)
    I won't claim to be a monk expert by any means, but I do notice from the log that your Shuffle uptime is only 78%. Now, granted, there are several parts of the Garrosh fight where you can't really have Shuffle up anyway, but I still see many top logs with at least 90% uptime. I immediately looked at your Keg Smash and Jab usage to see whether this was the problem, but that seems fine.

    You do, however, seem to overpurify. A lot. You're spending half as much time in moderate stagger as most other logs, and barely any time in heavy stagger at all. Now, if you were keeping 100% uptime on Shuffle, this would be of no issue, but seeing as your overpurifying looks to be costing you Shuffle uptime, I would suggest reminding yourself during the fight that sitting on even a heavy stagger is infinitely preferable to dropping Shuffle on a boss that melees as hard as Garrosh does. Keep up Shuffle first, then worry about clearing stagger - the damage intake from failing at the former is infinitely less manageable for healers than the damage pattern from the latter.

  3. #3
    What about the part I'm seeing where it shows:

    Healing taken from

    Actor Amount
    Muffinz 16396870 44.6 %
    Hellhawk 12963113 35.3 %
    Nerice 7397405 20.1 %

    And out of the top 9 healing sources, my healing accounts for 37.8% of that. Divine Light from the paladin only amounted for 21 casts for a total of 6.4% of my incoming healing, and Illuminated Healing accounting for 11% of my incoming healing? The paladin's top healing out of the top 9 of my incoming sources only totals for 30.8%. That combined amounts to 68.6% of my heals received, with only 31.4% of all healing received from other sources. I really would like to know if there's another issue here aside from the stagger/shuffle thing. I'm working on keeping a higher uptime on shuffle. I do like to purify stagger, no doubt on that, but that is because I'm really afraid the ticks of it combined with healing received (or lack thereof) will force me to keel over like a dog who thinks he's in trouble.

    Edit: The other tank's health does seem to bounce around quite a bit as well during periods of heavy incoming damage, so I know it's not just myself.
    Last edited by Muffinz; 2014-01-02 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Additional info.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffinz View Post
    What about the part I'm seeing where it shows:

    Healing taken from

    Actor Amount
    Muffinz 16396870 44.6 %
    Hellhawk 12963113 35.3 %
    Nerice 7397405 20.1 %

    And out of the top 9 healing sources, my healing accounts for 37.8% of that. Divine Light from the paladin only amounted for 21 casts for a total of 6.4% of my incoming healing, and Illuminated Healing accounting for 11% of my incoming healing? The paladin's top healing out of the top 9 of my incoming sources only totals for 30.8%. That combined amounts to 68.6% of my heals received, with only 31.4% of all healing received from other sources. I really would like to know if there's another issue here aside from the stagger/shuffle thing. I'm working on keeping a higher uptime on shuffle. I do like to purify stagger, no doubt on that, but that is because I'm really afraid the ticks of it combined with healing received (or lack thereof) will force me to keel over like a dog who thinks he's in trouble.
    Holy Paladins rarely tank-heal directly with Divine Light, AFAIK. Holy Radiance is optimal spell selection so long as there is at least 1 melee present that will be hit by it as well. Illuminated Healing is also usually relatively lower on tanks seeing as Beacon of Light is the primary source of tank-healing when a Holy Paladin plays properly, and Beacon does not trigger IH.

    Are you taking slightly more healing from yourself than most other monks I see? Yes. Yes you are. Part of this is probably because of your 4-set healing coupled with overpurification, but even at 45%-ish healing done by yourself, nothing suggests that your healers aren't healing you enough. The issue very much to me looks to be a lacking understanding of exactly what constitutes dangerous damage, and what constitutes manageable damage, and this lacking understanding causing you to, effectively, kill yourself through suboptimal play. Tanks in MoP have a much higher responsibility for their own survival than ever before (routinely doing well over 50% of our own healing), and you are currently failing to some degree at vital parts of this responsibility.

    I cannot stress enough that what kills tanks is spike damage. All current, viable mitigation-oriented builds for all tank classes focus solely on eliminating spikes as much as possible, and stagger does this with extreme efficiency so long as we're discussing physical damage. You will never, unless your healers literally tab out, or you somehow manage to get a 1000% stagger, die because of stagger. Without stagger, however, you are little better than a rogue with a large health pool at tanking. It simply cannot be understated that sitting on red stagger (and quite frankly red stagger is the only stagger that you should be remotely concerned about/ever purify without huge amounts of excess Chi) is, barring very specific circumstances, always preferable to dropping Shuffle. Always.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Muffinz View Post
    What about the part I'm seeing where it shows:

    Healing taken from

    Actor Amount
    Muffinz 16396870 44.6 %
    Hellhawk 12963113 35.3 %
    Nerice 7397405 20.1 %

    And out of the top 9 healing sources, my healing accounts for 37.8% of that. Divine Light from the paladin only amounted for 21 casts for a total of 6.4% of my incoming healing, and Illuminated Healing accounting for 11% of my incoming healing? The paladin's top healing out of the top 9 of my incoming sources only totals for 30.8%. That combined amounts to 68.6% of my heals received, with only 31.4% of all healing received from other sources. I really would like to know if there's another issue here aside from the stagger/shuffle thing. I'm working on keeping a higher uptime on shuffle. I do like to purify stagger, no doubt on that, but that is because I'm really afraid the ticks of it combined with healing received (or lack thereof) will force me to keel over like a dog who thinks he's in trouble.

    Edit: The other tank's health does seem to bounce around quite a bit as well during periods of heavy incoming damage, so I know it's not just myself.
    As a tank, you do heal yourself a lot. Every tank does. That's normal.

    Almost every time you died, you did not have Shuffle up and got burst down. That's a much bigger problem than I think you realize. Another part of tanking is realizing when you're going to take heavy damage and using appropriate cooldowns or calling for externals.

  6. #6
    I see both your points, and I'm going to take other measures to make sure that doesn't happen with shuffle falling off. Next question I have is: is it worth letting the 2nd tank pull Garrosh at the start until the first set of adds get to the group, so he can have some vengeance built up (whereas I won't have a Keg Smash yank off all the adds instantly), or just try to not use KS until after the first few seconds of him holding them?

    The adds, no matter if I roll Elusive Brew constantly (which I always try to have rolling when I'm tanking the boss), always seem to come to me right away, and if I'm rolling EB, there is still strings of attacks that hit me not dodged/parried and spikes the hell out of my damage taken. It also becomes a problem on phase 2 where we have the adds from Empowered Whirling Corruption come straight to me if I don't have a heal and have to use Expel Harm. Is there any other way around that? I know the 500% modifier on threat coupled with vengeance build-up is mega threat for the adds, but I try to rotate CDs during that time so I don't have to worry about dropping like a fly during it or after it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Muffinz View Post
    I see both your points, and I'm going to take other measures to make sure that doesn't happen with shuffle falling off. Next question I have is: is it worth letting the 2nd tank pull Garrosh at the start until the first set of adds get to the group, so he can have some vengeance built up (whereas I won't have a Keg Smash yank off all the adds instantly), or just try to not use KS until after the first few seconds of him holding them?

    The adds, no matter if I roll Elusive Brew constantly (which I always try to have rolling when I'm tanking the boss), always seem to come to me right away, and if I'm rolling EB, there is still strings of attacks that hit me not dodged/parried and spikes the hell out of my damage taken. It also becomes a problem on phase 2 where we have the adds from Empowered Whirling Corruption come straight to me if I don't have a heal and have to use Expel Harm. Is there any other way around that? I know the 500% modifier on threat coupled with vengeance build-up is mega threat for the adds, but I try to rotate CDs during that time so I don't have to worry about dropping like a fly during it or after it.
    Whoever is going to tank the adds should have the boss until the adds come out. If having the boss and adds will kill you, yes be careful with your threat. Ideally whoever is tanking adds will be doing the most AoE damage though, so the other tank shouldn't have to worry too much.

    The p1 adds use Hamstring, which cannot be avoided. It hits for a lot.

    If the Empowered Whirl adds are all going to you, it's the raid's fault. When a circle spawns under a person, they should step out of it and pick up that add immediately as it spawns. Stuns and taunts should also be used. That's the simplest way to handle that mechanic; just pick up and kill your own add.

  8. #8
    Thank you. That shows me where something isn't done properly.

  9. #9
    As far as phase 1 boss + adds, the solution is very simple: If the boss tank pulls aggro on the adds, the add tank taunts the boss and lets the other tank keep the adds.

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