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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Herbalism vs. Tailoring

    Hey guys, wanted to get some feedback on this topic that I have been theorycrafting / simcrafting all day (probably overthinking it anyways)

    Herbalism for Affliction gives an additional Agony breakpoint but Tailoring gives 2000 Int, as well as 2000 SP, and a little under 1% crit, I'm wondering what is more theoretical DPS gain?

    Simming it Herb is ahead of Tailoring by 3k in terms of perfect situations, but a good amount of top end Warlocks are using Tailoring now for their 2nd profession, as well as they recently just did it. Does it have something to do with the time your raid kills a boss since Lifeblood has a CD and Lightweave has a 45s ICD.

    Wanted to get some solid feedback in terms of minmaxing, thanks in advance for reading and any feedback brought to this.

  2. #2
    I just stuck with engineering and tailoring. Tailoring is great for all specs and Herb would't be so nice for destro and I'm guessing it's only really worth it for the other specs if it helps you hit a break point.
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  3. #3
    tailoring is far better then herbalism, imo anyway.

    the on demand haste is nice, but you will get more out of the cloak enchant in the end.

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Yeah I do agree the uptime on Lightweave is more than Lifeblood, however, the on demand haste I have mixed feelings about tbh. Lifeblood imo is good for all specs if you can snapshot the trinket procs for another Chaos Bolt that you wouldn't get without having Lifeblood, as well as catching a breakpoint in Affliction. I'm just looking for more math behind it.

  5. #5
    i hear ya. as for min / maxing, go for it i suppose. i cant help with the math though, sorry.

    however, i would look at the long term. is it worth the minimal dps boost? on demand cd you have to time and pay attention to, or a passive? not to mention the monetary comparison (if that matters to you?) and next xpac they said they are removing (or at least attempting) to remove snapshoting. so herb' may not be as useful then and you might want to re-roll prof's again.

    just throwing that out there, GL.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rekx View Post
    however, i would look at the long term. is it worth the minimal dps boost? on demand cd you have to time and pay attention to, or a passive? not to mention the monetary comparison (if that matters to you?) and next xpac they said they are removing (or at least attempting) to remove snapshoting. so herb' may not be as useful then and you might want to re-roll prof's again.
    Watching it is not a problem since it always syncs with Dark Soul. As for profession swapping, the gold isn't a big deal and I'll believe them when I see that snapshoting is gone from the game without any other buffs / changes to the class

  7. #7
    agony breakpoints make no sense imo

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violetti View Post
    agony breakpoints make no sense imo
    Any math or theory behind it? Or just empty thoughts?

  9. #9
    For affliction herbalism is best for sure, and its even better if you are horde with berserking.
    So the best professions are herb/eng.
    Last edited by dahri; 2013-12-28 at 06:52 PM.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dahri View Post
    For affliction herbalism is best for sure, and its even better if you are horde with berserking.
    So the best professions are herb/eng.
    That's my way of thinking, as well as myself thinking Affliction and Demo can be the best specs if played correctly IMO, but top-end Warlocks are going Tailoring, so I was making sure I didn't miss something.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Santoisms View Post
    Any math or theory behind it? Or just empty thoughts?
    dont know why you would want to relay on herbbuff for a extra dottick, on a dot that should never run out, since you would lose the stacks

    pandamic ftw anyway

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Violetti View Post
    dont know why you would want to relay on herbbuff for a extra dottick, on a dot that should never run out, since you would lose the stacks

    pandamic ftw anyway

    I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you simply don't understand how haste breakpoints work. They shorten the time between ticks, which has nothing to do with Pandemic or the DoT running out.

    Regarding Herbalism vs Tailoring, the difference is so small that it barely matters. Its a fight by fight basis for what is actually better; If Bloodlust is used on the pull, Herbalism may lose or gain value depending on your gear, and Tailoring my lose or gain value on the same basis. Its all situational, and the two are too close for it to matter.

    Bottom line is that Engineering is still vastly superior. As long as you have that, not much else matters.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you simply don't understand how haste breakpoints work. They shorten the time between ticks, which has nothing to do with Pandemic or the DoT running out.

    Regarding Herbalism vs Tailoring, the difference is so small that it barely matters. Its a fight by fight basis for what is actually better; If Bloodlust is used on the pull, Herbalism may lose or gain value depending on your gear, and Tailoring my lose or gain value on the same basis. Its all situational, and the two are too close for it to matter.

    Bottom line is that Engineering is still vastly superior. As long as you have that, not much else matters.
    Yeah that's my way of thinking as well as Herb being better for getting more CBs in 10 second trinks as Destro and an additional tick from Agony in Aff. I also kept it from 5.2 when Demo was so lol with Glyph of Imp Swarm, shortened the opener Swarm CD to like 37 seconds.

    And as stated in OP Herb sims higher than Tailoring by 3k as Aff and 2.6k in Destro for me currently.

  14. #14
    This kinda discussion is why a squish is needed so badly.

    When your dps delta is something like 400k, 3000 is .75% of your dps. You're talking less than a percent of difference, worse yet is that you have a min-max difference of almost 130k in that sim. All that adds up to the extremely minor differences between professions being intangible.

    Use whatever profession you enjoy the most, because you won't see any realistic difference in your dps over the course of a fight.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    This kinda discussion is why a squish is needed so badly.

    When your dps delta is something like 400k, 3000 is .75% of your dps. You're talking less than a percent of difference, worse yet is that you have a min-max difference of almost 130k in that sim. All that adds up to the extremely minor differences between professions being intangible.

    Use whatever profession you enjoy the most, because you won't see any realistic difference in your dps over the course of a fight.
    BACON! I totally agree, you shouldn't have to be goated into Herb/Engi and Troll as a Warlock. I just don't see the nerfs / squishes happening. They honestly try to do it every expansion in one way or another and the hardcores always tell em no.

  16. #16
    The squish was announced at blizzcon. It's going in with WoD and will squish all the numbers by 96%.

    Seriously though just use whatever floats your boat for now, with dot snapshots and haste breakpoints going away everything you know about aff right now is going to change philosophy wise so meh.

    I'm almost at a point where I'm just gonna switch to blacksmithing or something since short duration procs will mean a whole lot less for aff and gems are supposedly going to be more significant. We'll see anyway, gonna bed now.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    The squish was announced at blizzcon. It's going in with WoD and will squish all the numbers by 96%.

    Seriously though just use whatever floats your boat for now, with dot snapshots and haste breakpoints going away everything you know about aff right now is going to change philosophy wise so meh.

    I'm almost at a point where I'm just gonna switch to blacksmithing or something since short duration procs will mean a whole lot less for aff and gems are supposedly going to be more significant. We'll see anyway, gonna bed now.
    Yeah but how I understood Celestalon when he was explaining haste breakpoints was there will be a reason to use haste for more partial ticks at the end of the base duration. Haste will never increase the time per dot also just the amount of ticks in that allotted time.

    I would think Blacksmithing would be best for us depending on what the gems are but we'll just have to see.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Santoisms View Post
    Yeah but how I understood Celestalon when he was explaining haste breakpoints was there will be a reason to use haste for more partial ticks at the end of the base duration. Haste will never increase the time per dot also just the amount of ticks in that allotted time.

    I would think Blacksmithing would be best for us depending on what the gems are but we'll just have to see.
    If you're thinking about which prof for WoD, then just stop. They've been talking for some time about changing or removing them altogether because they just don't like how people are picking them based on them alone. And at this point for this tier in this expansion, I'd highly doubt what profession you're using is what's impeding your progress.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Santoisms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're thinking about which prof for WoD, then just stop. They've been talking for some time about changing or removing them altogether because they just don't like how people are picking them based on them alone. And at this point for this tier in this expansion, I'd highly doubt what profession you're using is what's impeding your progress.
    Impending progress? Of course not. But if you are in a serious raiding environment and not taking full advantage of what the game gives you at that time then you're doing it wrong.

    i.e. Troll, Herb / Engi.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    If you're thinking about which prof for WoD, then just stop. They've been talking for some time about changing or removing them altogether because they just don't like how people are picking them based on them alone. And at this point for this tier in this expansion, I'd highly doubt what profession you're using is what's impeding your progress.
    And Blacksmithing would make the most sense if they go through with the changes, the also say this every expansion and it never goes through. Without snapshotting and haste breakpoints, professions / race is really what hardcore Warlocks have left.

  20. #20
    We placed us 8 world 24 25m and are alliance for one, so our racials are total shitbag. And no one really cares what professions you're using as long as it isn't like... mining or something stupid.

    I see it a lot more common that the "serious" guilds that care about that kind of thing aren't the same hardcore guilds actually raiding competitively. There's literally nothing currently in the game that you cant do if you're not a specific race or class so... really doesn't matter.

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