Would Ulduar have been epic if LFR existed back in 2009?

[Deleted]

I think the whole question doesn't really make sense.

If Ulduar made a lasting impression on you, it was because of your gameplay experience in that particular dungeon. The combination of the efforts, the social constellation, the time period spent there and the eventual success.
LFR or no LFR doesn't make any difference. If LFR existed back then and you still had your "proper" raid experience, how could LFR take any of that away? It's nonsensical.

If someone was in a particularly slow to progress normal mode guild, then that guild might not clear it before it opens in LFR. Seeing Yogg-Saron on the lowest difficulty before getting to him on normal would cheapen the experience a bit, just like it does on normal vs heroic.

[Kapadons]

It had a lot of flaws.
-many bosses had no hardmode at all, so going through them was something of a dull chore once you were on the hardmodes
-you only got one ilvl 239 item per hardmode kill, and no heroic/hardmode tierset. So there wasn't much incentive to kill Freya or Firefighter once you had the Algalon key
-The bosses whose hardmodes were only activated midway through the fight, like Thorim and Vezax, felt very boring up until that point. The best hardmodes were the ones where the difficulty is toggled in advance, like Mimiron, Freya and Yogg. Not a big surprise that this was the system Blizzard ran with going forward.

Yeah, people tend to forgot how boring Ulduar could be. Most of the boss fights were really dull after awhile. Yogg 0 last phase and Mim's entire fight were the only truly edge of your seat moments.

[nekobaka]

You are totally right but when you have some people in the guild that drag you down really hard it will take longer :/

I am not sure about this tier but with prior tiers most normal mode raiding guilds was slower than the LFR unlock rate. Generally those who clear within the time frame are those who aim to take on heroic. Going into ToT and SoO the developers talked about gear expectations taking into account of the guilds that was still getting gear in normal mode as there was guilds that ether didnt clear normal or only a month prior to the new raid launching.

So dont feel so bad especially if your guild is on the more casual side. Enjoy things at your pace. LFR gating is the developers trying to find a compromise in a feature that doesnt involve progression with a feature that does. I agree with the feeling of cheapening the experience, but thats why its a compromise.

[Toxuvox]

I think Ulduar would've been just as epic if LFR had been included. None of the scenery would be different. Sure, the bosses would have a mechanic or two removed, but that's part of the charm of LFR...it's training wheels for raiding. Maybe you wouldn't get to fight Algalon, but that's a small thing given the existence of the likes of Sinestra, Ra'den, and Raggy with legs. I firmly believe that giving Heroics/Mythics access to extra mechanics, as well as exclusive one-off bosses (and by extension, exclusive loot) more than accommodates their "More-Than-LFR/Flex/Normal" desires. In short, depending on who you are, LFR takes nothing away from the overall feel of a raid....it's the people that do that all on their own.

[Pull My Finger]

If someone was in a particularly slow to progress normal mode guild, then that guild might not clear it before it opens in LFR. Seeing Yogg-Saron on the lowest difficulty before getting to him on normal would cheapen the experience a bit, just like it does on normal vs heroic.

Well seriously, if anyone is that sensible about it, then it's in their own responsibility to not ruin it for themselves. Anything else would be pretty much ridiculous.

[Usagi Senshi]

It's shitty for those in competitive guilds who have to run the LFR's to get as much gear as possible before normal raids begin.

Sucks to be them then, eh? Too bad so fucking sad and all that! But yeah, if you don;t have Normal beat before LFR unlocks 2 weeks later you're not in a competitive guild to begin with. LOL!

Anyway, nope, presentation is everything and Ulduar would still just be as epic in that respect. The try hards will say otherwise of course but meh, poop on them I say!

The only thing I dislike about Uldaur is WoW's outdated model system at the time (still? lol). Uldaur with Rift's boss model types and environment would have been even more epic.[/QUOTE]

[Deleted]

It would certainly be possible, however the bosses would have to be adapted to account for LFR skills.


Flame Leviathan: Would have had half the health. Even if you didn't shoot people up, you'd lose maybe two vehicles. There wouldn't be a spell to interrupt. Your vehicles would have twice the HP, towers permanently down.

Ignis the Furnace Master: No flame jets, no constructs.

Razorscale: The harpoons would auto-fire after a while. One harpoon is enough to bring her down, and she wouldn't destroy them anymore. The iron dwarves would be replaced by wooden dwarves that do half the damage and can be controlled by a clothy.

XT-002 Deconstructor: Tantrum would only do 30% of your total health. Killing the heart, which has half the health, would immediately end the fight and destroy XT-002. Light bomb would just be a graphic effect.

The Assembly of Iron: Would become active one after the other.

Kologarn: Would still grab people, but he'd pick the lowest non-healer DPS. After a while, he'd just drop that person again. The arms would no longer grow back.

Auriaya: Her cats are classified as "Critters" and only prance around her for decoration. When Auriaya dies, they'd meow bitterly.

Hodir: Flash Freeze only lasts 10 seconds and won't kill player characters. The NPCs still die, but no one would realize they're there. Frozen blows does half the damage.

Thorim: No arena, the entire raid goes into the gauntlet. Most people would take ages, because they have to inch their way through the traps on the top. Unbalancing strike just makes the tank look dizzy, but has no other effect.

Freya: Detonating Lashers do half the damage, and have friendly fire. You're not pacified for not standing under a mushroom. The three adds don't need to die at the same time, as long as they die some time during the fight. Trees would bloom, and then just stand there, debuffing the players once in a while until one runs over and kills them.

Mimiron: No fourth phase. Napalm and plasma do half the damage. Bomb bots are non-aggressive. There is a portal you can click to get directly to Mimiron, skipping the frogger section.

General Vezax: Mana regeneration is amplified. Searing flames cast time is doubled.

Yogg-Saron: The sanity wells are homing, and follow the player with the lowest sanity. No damage reduction for being in one. No death rays. Hodir's protective gaze has no cooldown. Mimiron doesn't just cast destabilization matrix, but comes down to help.

Algalon: Who's Algalon?

[Morbownz]

I was just wondering if the reason we haven't had any truly "epic" raids since Ulduar (this is of course my opinion) may have something to do with the fact that you can SEE (I'm just talking about seeing) the raid content with the click of a button. I know Heroic modes are hard, but you can still see the bosses and environments in LFR extremely easily. I only raid through LFR because all I want is to see the content, I don't care about loot, achievements, mounts or progression. Before LFR I had an incentive to raid properly, and raids did feel a million times more epic when not served on a silver platter right in front of me.

Of course you could just "not use LFR", but the fact that there is a way to see the content that easily removes the incentive for people like me to raid properly, and also removes the "Epic" feel of the raid.

This is not a LFR QQ thread, I was just wondering why there IMO haven't been any truly memorable raids since the introduction of LFR.

Do you think that Ulduar would still be epic back then if 80% of the playerbase had completed it and killed Yogg-Saron? If you could SEE the raid in a few hours with the click of a button and then rushing through it with strangers? It got me thinking.

Nope, it would have been as forgettable as anything else LFR has to offer. As far as raids not being memorable... think back to the first time you killed Sartharion on normal mode, then compare how it felt to the first time you killed Sartharion with the 3 Drakes joining the fight. Another example would be Mimiron, Mimiron was cool on normal mode, but when you first completed it on Hardmode the excitment you felt made you realise that normal mode didn't get you as pumped between each attempt.

[Airwaves]

Yes and No. It would have been a completely different raid had the current system been active. You have to remember it was before different modes of raids existed so it was developed different. I for one still think it was the best way they have ever done raids.

[Deleted]

how could LFR take any of that away? It's nonsensical.

Because LFR has direct effect on how the content is designed - they have to piece meal the content so they can make it into "wings", it has to be able to be done during the "lunch break", after all.

Even the "normal" content of 5-man dungeons has taken a hit, no more Maraudon or Stratholme, now it's all about "lunch break runs!".

[Deleted]

If Flexible raiding had been introduced before LFR then there's a pretty good chance that LFR would never have been deemed necessary... but that's all academic - it's too late for "what ifs" now.

Honestly I think the worst part of LFR has nothing to do with raiding; and far more to with the fact that it has become the de-facto content for several million players who don't have a lot else to do once they hit L90. It's masquerading as a "multiplayer" for a lot of players. It's also the catchup mechanism, and for some people it's the only endgame they've got aside from various solo activities like pet battles, timeless isle and achievement hunting.

Players who can skip LFR and jump into flex/normal are just fine right now; They don't need to take part in it or have their day ruined by angry griefers. The people who Blizz really need to worry about are the ones who are stuck inside the Least-epic-experience WoW has to offer

[killtehnoob]

How does lfr take away from your normal or heroic experience? So many posers in this thread.

[ComputerNerd]

Sigh...

Would SoO have been more epic if there were no LFR or Flex? Would Terrace or ToT?

As a follow-up, would either of these have been more epic if you never did LFR, never even knew it existed? Think about that one.

Sometimes, it feels like people are just saying LFR is shitty just to call it shitty, rather than to actually say WHY it's shitty.

The why is obvious, the people in it who are intentionally being harmful.
Typically those doing most of the complaining or afking because they can.
LFR ruins nothing, because LFR difficulty is not the same experience.
If you want a more "epic" experience, then run a higher difficulty.

LFR is not, and nor is meant to be representative of the raiding experience, but more a taster of the mechanics and group behaviour in that larger format.

Unskilled/inexperienced can learn.
But an idiot who can do better but doesn't want to, they are harder to teach.
If anything they need a good kick up the backside.

[vipers]

It's shitty for those in competitive guilds who have to run the LFR's to get as much gear as possible before normal raids begin.

funny because LFR opens weeks later than normal raids

[Deleted]

yes of course it would of been. if the normal difficulty of ulduar had nothing changed about it, then why would LFR have any impact on how 'epic' it was?

[Repefe]

The raid was just well designed. LFR or no LFR wouldn't change a thing.

[notorious98]

Of course you could just "not use LFR", but the fact that there is a way to see the content that easily removes the incentive for people like me to raid properly, and also removes the "Epic" feel of the raid.

I think you're overestimating the number of people who use LFR as an alternative to a true raiding experience.

OT : There haven't been any "memorable" raids since LFR because the raids just haven't been that memorable. No other reason than that.

[GennGreymane]

would have not have had any of the turn on/off heroic modes

[notorious98]

Because LFR has direct effect on how the content is designed - they have to piece meal the content so they can make it into "wings", it has to be able to be done during the "lunch break", after all.

Even the "normal" content of 5-man dungeons has taken a hit, no more Maraudon or Stratholme, now it's all about "lunch break runs!".

5 man dungeons have taken a hit to difficulty and length, I'll agree. But LFR has done nothing to the design of a raid. The "wings" of raids are nothing but break points. For some raids you simply enter after one boss' room, but before the trash leading to another boss. In normal or heroic the raid looks entirely seamless and is accessible from the initial entrance. Your argument makes no sense.

[Triginhil]

To me, Ulduar wasn't epic cuz of the fights, but due to the Lore behind it and the quest lines + dungeons that lead up to it. It honestly felt just like when I first entered the Plaguelands then ventured into Scholomance + Stratholme. The entire zone, dungeons, and raid fit perfectly. I honestly was sad when I found out Thorim's beloved mount was turned into Razorscale, which we had just slaughtered.

Every LFR can still be "epic" if you take the time to notice the minor details, even if it is full of afkers, elitists, baddies, or foreigners. The content is still there, you just blow through it so fast you dont realize what or who you just killed and/or why you did, majority of players just go in, spam 1 to pretend to afk and QQ when they dont get loot off every boss. Although when I mentioned a significant character in LFR "Jin'rokh being a friendly NPC" a few players actually realized this and said their minds had been blown.