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  1. #1
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    What percentage of the population would play, if all raid modes had same gear?

    I suspect around 80% or more (the loot w****s) will only do LFR in that case. Well, I guess the achievement hoarders will be obsessed with the points, so I guess I could add a condition: provided there are no achievements or we are only talking about raiding+loot.

    If you say "what a stupid question is this, of course only lfr", don't worry, it's not a stupid question, you're just one of those people that does not want to raid really, you mainly want loot and maybe a bit of raiding. Or you do want to raid but you do not want to raid with a guild, but for personal fun, which, to be honest, is something I greatly respect, sometimes it's more fun to optimize yourself than bear with others in the game.

  2. #2
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    a quite high percentage playing the game now only get the lowest quality of loot (lfr) and im gonna bet only around 10% of players get higher then that, so ill say still a high percentage of players will still play if that happened.

    but then again it depends on what quality of loot you mean. if players can get heroic gear from all difficulties, then i think a lot more will stay, but if you can only get lfr gear from all difficulties, then more will leave.

    if its lfr loot from all difficulties though, then heroic modes will be impossible to do with that quality of gear.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    but then again it depends on what quality of loot you mean. if players can get heroic gear from all difficulties, then i think a lot more will stay, but if you can only get lfr gear from all difficulties, then more will leave.
    Don't you realize this makes no sense at all? What ilevel you now have on heroic would look like nothing if lfr had it but heroic had the same difference they have now added to it. Of course, it does affect the difficulty of encounters, but looking at ilevel alone, it is completely meaningless.

  4. #4
    Gear doesn't matter. If you are playing with gear as a goal, you are doing it wrong, and are not getting the "fun" from this game. Play to have fun, to be challenged, for the camaraderie. Gear is just a bonus that lets you do more, they do go hand in hand. But gear just happens, you shouldn't chase it, you will only feel like that one piece of BiS you really need NEVER drops. You will care less about game play and more about who got that trinket. This in turn makes you less valuable to your fellow raiders and probably makes you act like a bit of a whiner. These are the same people that think meters matter.

    This is not directed at you OP but to anyone who also decides to read this thread.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    Don't you realize this makes no sense at all? What ilevel you now have on heroic would look like nothing if lfr had it but heroic had the same difference they have now added to it. Of course, it does affect the difficulty of encounters, but looking at ilevel alone, it is completely meaningless.
    i thought you was speaking as if they changed it today, and added one level of gear to the current raids. try be more clear with what you say pal

    Quote Originally Posted by NSGamer View Post
    Gear doesn't matter. If you are playing with gear as a goal, you are doing it wrong, and are not getting the "fun" from this game. Play to have fun, to be challenged, for the camaraderie. Gear is just a bonus that lets you do more, they do go hand in hand. But gear just happens, you shouldn't chase it, you will only feel like that one piece of BiS you really need NEVER drops. You will care less about game play and more about who got that trinket. This in turn makes you less valuable to your fellow raiders and probably makes you act like a bit of a whiner. These are the same people that think meters matter.

    This is not directed at you OP but to anyone who also decides to read this thread.
    the thing with this is you can't decide what people constitute as fun, maybe a player gets the most fun out of the game by getting new gear and progressing their character? not just from finally killing a boss.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzlee View Post
    if its lfr loot from all difficulties though, then heroic modes will be impossible to do with that quality of gear.
    I didn't quite understand this either. How is every raid difficulty getting the same item level of gear going to work exactly?

    You just bang your head against the wall in Mythic with crap gear trying to progress?

    Or do us LFR heroes get God-mode gear to steamroll LFR?

    I do not see how this would work in your proposal.

    You need to clarify OP.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    I suspect around 80% or more (the loot w****s) will only do LFR in that case. Well, I guess the achievement hoarders will be obsessed with the points, so I guess I could add a condition: provided there are no achievements or we are only talking about raiding+loot.
    Absolutely.

    And yes, this does show that replacing raids as the endgame is way overdue... the majority of people don't care for the thrill of the "group experience" enough to bear the costs. And there are lots of costs to raiding - semi-strict schedule, lots and lots of time spent waiting (mainly for others, because you are 1/10th or 1/25th of all people) / wiping (also mainly because of others), loot / merit dramas, etc. It just isn't worth it for most.

    /shrug

  8. #8
    Change the topic to "What percentage of the population actually wants challenging content?"
    POWERED BY THE RED RAGE OF OUR CUSTOMERS, THIS IRON STEED WILL VALIANTLY LEAD YOU INTO BATTLE FOR THE ONLY FEW WEEKS YOU WILL USE IT. TAKES ONLY $30 AND YOUR SOUL TO ENJOY THE MOUNT EVERY OTHER PERSON HAS. BUY NOOOW.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    And yes, this does show that replacing raids as the endgame is way overdue
    Replace them with what exactly?
    Also, this doesn't actually show anything - just some guy "suspecting" that his model would work the way he thinks - it's not like he presented any evidence at all, just opinions.

    So, ok - remove everything else but LFR - give free epic drops from every boss so everyone who can bother to queue up gets their gear... then what? Game over for 6 months until Blizzard gets the next expac out?
    I don't see how that would work for the game.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSGamer View Post
    Gear doesn't matter. If you are playing with gear as a goal, you are doing it wrong, and are not getting the "fun" from this game. Play to have fun, to be challenged, for the camaraderie. Gear is just a bonus that lets you do more, they do go hand in hand. But gear just happens, you shouldn't chase it, you will only feel like that one piece of BiS you really need NEVER drops. You will care less about game play and more about who got that trinket. This in turn makes you less valuable to your fellow raiders and probably makes you act like a bit of a whiner. These are the same people that think meters matter.
    This is the most sensible opinion yet expressed in this thread. Play the game for the adventure and for the challenge at whatever your skill level is. The person who 'wins' at World of Warcraft is the person who has the most fun.

    The answer to the question posed by the thread is that most everyone would run Raid Finder for the gear if it were the same as heroic. That's because people are hypocritical, bellow constantly on forums about about challenge and difficulty but when it comes down to it, if there's a shortcut available they take it. In a heartbeat. Forum talk is cheap.

    Those that truly value the game for its difficulty and really want a challenge would do heroics just as there are those that do challenge modes now. It would probably be the same five percent or so that's always done them. And good for them.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-12-28 at 06:51 PM.
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  11. #11
    most normal raiders would just do lfr. heroic raiders would all continue to be heroic raiders for the most part since they dont care about gear its only a way to get the content down faster.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamyz View Post
    Replace them with what exactly?
    Also, this doesn't actually show anything - just some guy "suspecting" that his model would work the way he thinks - it's not like he presented any evidence at all, just opinions.

    So, ok - remove everything else but LFR - give free epic drops from every boss so everyone who can bother to queue up gets their gear... then what? Game over for 6 months until Blizzard gets the next expac out?
    I don't see how that would work for the game.
    You present a false dichotomy. The choice is not raiding as the only endgame or giving everyone gear nearly instantly. There is a ton of design room in between and based on the stats this very site generated even with LFR as the only option for gear progression just over half the players opt to raid at all.

    Blizzard apparently believed that they could cut costs and corners and shove everyone into the same content and they were successful in bribing and bullying a lot more players into raid content, but only by effectively removing all other means of progression for pve.

    It is high time they acknowledge that most players simply don't want to raid and offer alternative paths and let players choose the route they want to take. It's not impossible to make things take a fixed amount of time - that's essentially what they had before they gutted valor gearing as an alternative path for players who don't care for raiding. Now you have LFR or nothing and as most acknowledge LFR has most of the negatives of raiding with very few of the positives. I don't see how that is a recipe for success.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    I suspect around 80% or more (the loot w****s) will only do LFR in that case.
    If people got exactly the same gear from doing less, I would simply quit. Plain and simple.

    I expect time, effort and dedication to be rewarded accordingly, as I do everywhere. Only LFR running people are like the kids waiting at the opposite side of the goal all game for someone to pass so they can score while everyone else does the work.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    This is the most sensible opinion yet expressed in this thread. Play the game for the adventure and for the challenge at whatever your skill level is. The person who 'wins' at World of Warcraft is the person who has the most fun.

    The answer to the question posed by the thread is that most everyone would run Raid Finder for the gear if it were the same as heroic. That's because people are hypocritical, bellow constantly on forums about about challenge and difficulty but when it comes down to it, if there's a shortcut available they take it. In a heartbeat. Forum talk is cheap.

    Those that truly value the game for its difficulty and really want a challenge would do heroics just as there are those that do challenge modes now. It would probably be the same five percent or so that's always done them. And good for them.
    True, however current dungeon challenge modes are not real fun type of challenge as hard mode raids are, they are stupid race against clock which is not really fun and satisfying, it can be fun for some but in a way different way a real challenging content like hard mode raids are.

    Downing a hard boss has a whole different pleasure than rushing into something 1 sec faster.
    Last edited by Xjev; 2013-12-28 at 07:18 PM.

  15. #15
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    I'm a heroic raider and I would most propably quit.
    Please don't come at me with the "play for fun/accomplishment"-argument; Fullfillment in MMOs for me comes from my character progressing in terms of power (even if that's only by small numbers)

  16. #16
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    I am an ex-hardcore raider. LFR gear is just fine for me. I can still see the content and experience the fights similarly to how they are in normal modes.

    Plus, at ilvl 513, I'm still doing equal or more dps than people over ilvl 530+ (I'm doing about 150k on my destro lock single target). It puts a smile on my face to be topping the charts with a character that only has 3 days /played @ 90.

    of course it's topping LFR charts, but still... I figure I will eventually have my orange cloak and everything upgraded to 536 or better (I got the 553 tier pants from celestials already). maybe then I'll start joining flex/heroics and destroy those charts as well... Depends on how long before wod comes out.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by coldrain View Post
    Change the topic to "What percentage of the population actually wants challenging content?"
    Challenging to who? What's challenging to ME may not be challenging to YOU.

  18. #18
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xjev View Post
    True, however current dungeon challenge modes are not real fun type of challenge as hard mode raids are, they are stupid race against clock which is not really fun and satisfying, it can be fun for some but in a way different way a real challenging content like hard mode raids are.

    Downing a hard boss has a whole different pleasure than rushing into something 1 sec faster.
    I agree. I'm all for them having a second challenge mode version that is untimed but more or less the same otherwise. Perhaps increase all of the mob/boss health by 20% or so since you would have time to stop and plan a strategy. And reward valor, gear tokens, toys and vanity items, transmog or something. Maybe even make a store mount or pet a very rare drop. If we had something like that now I'd probably be doing that instead of leveling an alt. My main is largely done for this expansion.

    More on-topic though: I still believe that all of this is personal and that too many people are simply telling others how they should play and what they should play. Which anyone who's thinking right will ignore. Play the way you want. If you love Raid Finder then do Raid Finder. If it's something else, do something else.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    Blizzard apparently believed that they could cut costs and corners and shove everyone into the same content and they were successful in bribing and bullying a lot more players into raid content, but only by effectively removing all other means of progression for pve.
    You call the other guy out for "false dichotomy" then claim Blizzard is "bribing and bullying" people? There's a few fancy phrases for that but let's just call it "hyperbole."

    It is high time they acknowledge that most players simply don't want to raid and offer alternative paths and let players choose the route they want to take. It's not impossible to make things take a fixed amount of time - that's essentially what they had before they gutted valor gearing as an alternative path for players who don't care for raiding. Now you have LFR or nothing and as most acknowledge LFR has most of the negatives of raiding with very few of the positives. I don't see how that is a recipe for success.
    Now while I think you're looking at this through jaded eyes, I still kinda agree. This patch has been a massive disappointment for me as Timeless Isle turned out to be barely into the beta test of the first area... and then there was no other area. It was a month of content for a six month or more tier. LFR doesn't really hold subscribers as they learned in 4.3 when people were dropping all over the place and all there was to do was run LFR and maybe the HoT dungeons a bit and that's... pretty much it for current content.

    I really don't like this concept that a handful of people here throw out of "just make dungeons the alternate LFR" simply on the grounds that unless they had a weekly lockout or a phenominally small drop rate you'd just run them a bunch of times in a row and be finished with them within a week.

    Honestly I just wish they'd keep their promise on the 5.1 daily thing as dailies essentially made this expansion good until 5.3 when there wasn't anything left to do but run over to the Barrens and get gear that was several tiers behind. Wasn't even worth the effort to login if you hadn't skipped 5.2. People complained like crazy but damn if they wouldn't have done the same if the dailies weren't there and all there was to do was some yellow quests then sit in Shrine.

    Have a "Timeless Zone", have a massive and very long daily hub quest chain that takes you through cutscene to cutscene for over a couple months and various activities involving those Garrisons and maybe quests you can go complete yourself to help improve them aside from sending the minions and there would at least be a start to some lasting content.

    All that said, anything they add will be met with a vocal minority's outcry of "why are you making so many manditory things? I don't want to grind! You've killed wow!" right next to the "stop making things easy, I used to work for my progression!" and both will be oblivious of each other.
    Last edited by TheWindWalker; 2013-12-28 at 07:50 PM.

  20. #20
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    So disable "progression"? I mean... If LFR provides with heroic gear it will be ten times quicker be done than actually, because auto attacking would boost most badplayer's dps into the sky. normal would be too easy as well and heroics would be not even close as interesting with farmed heroic gear...

    This topic is from a book that explains something it doesn't even understand. But if I look at OP yet again I feel like someone who's flying on a broom is huning witches

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