1. #1

    Question Rogues Underperfoming PVP

    Hey guys,

    I was wondering if other rogue players also think that the Rogue class is performing very well anymore.
    I'm playing Rogue since the release of Wow about 9 years ago ( Yes i'm an old guy ), and i enjoyed the class alot.
    But recently i have the feeling we are rather stuck at a limit of the class and the abilities and rotations are getting a bit old.

    Most of the time i find myself being raped by "Macro Hunters", Warriors and WW monks. Esp Warriors frustrate me a lot ( Shieldwall without using shield ... makes perfect sense *cough ). Sometimes i have a hard time bursting throught warriors second wind ( i have Tyrannical gear atm ). But well warriors are supposed to be a rogues "Anti" class. My other Main char is a warrior also from the start of WoW so he's been around a while also . I play Protection warrior in pvp most of the time ( i'm very objective minded in pvp "flag capping" and base defending ). Protection warrior doesn't do alot of Dmg but it gets the job done. Since MOP was released the Monk showed up, i wasn't sure if it would be like the DK back in Wotlk which i didn't enjoy that much. So i never tried monk until a month ago, i tested a friends lvl 90 WW monk in Pvp and fell in love . It was like Rogue 2.0 for me, i'm realy having fun with it and so on ... Getting little off topic here .

    So the think is now that i have these 3 melee chars (not a ranged kind of guy ) i've put them to the test. I've been testing Warrior in pvp both Prot and Arms, prot is prot and is good for objective based stuff. Arms in Arena and BGs is just high bursting, good survivability if not to good. It feels like you are playing with a meatgrinder and the other players in the bg are the meat. After testing that i've been testing my friend's WW monk (mine isn't lvl 90 yet ), also about the same gear as my rogue and warrior. WW monk has nice dmg in pvp great survivability and nice escape speed.

    ***** Actual post part *****
    (For starters i do not use Macros, on none of my chars )
    So comparing these three melee classes Rogue realy do not perform that good in PVP from my point of view, Sub is the most fav. almost only reasonable competitive spec for PVP. And i feel that rogues are wasting a lot of time on keeping up Snd and other CP required abilities. Which other classes have as Passive abilities. So i feel that rogue is an ancient beat that is fun to play but is rather outdated for current PVP in WoW.

    What do you guys think of current state of rogues compared to other classes ?

    Kind Regards,

    Bart

  2. #2
    Rogues are still very deadly in arena. You just don't see them very much compared to warriors because a lot of rogues have a warrior alt or vice versa. And warrior is just a better choice atm. I would rank a rogue much higher than any monk atm.

  3. #3
    I think we are quite outdated and need some attention. Something like removing slice and dice would help a lot, find a different non finishing move way to increase attack speed. Slice and dice is not a bonus, it is a dependency which costs combo points.

    We were designed for an era where burst and control ruled, but nowadays there are far more ways to counter us rogues, more surivial cds, and free ccs. We used to trade damage for control, most classes do both because they're limited by cds not combo points whereas we arelimited by both.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Aniyana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    I think we are quite outdated and need some attention.
    yes and no, rogues are largely still built upon old pvp it seems with the way our cds work but other than that it's not too outdated

  5. #5
    I won't go as far as to say they're underpowered or can't perform well, but I think they take a lot more effort to do well with than most other classes. It's just too slow and deliberate, with too many ramp up finishers required to be going before you can effectively do anything else. If it got rid of those ramp up moves, or at least made it where they aren't finishers, then I think they'd be a lot more fun.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
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    Rogues have a high skill cap. If played correctly, they are the best class in the game, capable of soloing any class with ease, aside from maybe WW.

    They are already OP if anything atm, so any buffs would tip that delicate scale in the favor of rogues even more, thus ruining life for all on Azeroth.
    Last edited by Avada Kedavra; 2013-12-30 at 04:41 PM.
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  7. #7
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    Rogues have a high skill cap. If played correctly, they are the best class in the game, capable of soloing any class with ease, aside from maybe WW.

    They are already OP if anything atm, so any buffs would tip that delicate scale in the favor of rogues even more, thus ruining life for all on Azeroth.
    Rogues were like that during Dragon Soul Patch...

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    Rogues were like that during Dragon Soul Patch...
    exactly -

    In my opinion people see how well rogues can be when someone skilled is behind the keyboard, so they then level a rogue. But they have not mastered it so they are not as good, thus calling for buffs or changes so they can be good.

    If you buff the derps playing the rogues, by removing SnD and the like. it makes those that are really good at it OP.

    I tried to explain it well, but my brain isnt functioning very well today.
    “What was God doing before the divine creation? Was he preparing hell for people who asked such questions?” - Stephen Hawking

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    exactly -

    In my opinion people see how well rogues can be when someone skilled is behind the keyboard, so they then level a rogue. But they have not mastered it so they are not as good, thus calling for buffs or changes so they can be good.

    If you buff the derps playing the rogues, by removing SnD and the like. it makes those that are really good at it OP.

    I tried to explain it well, but my brain isnt functioning very well today.
    Skill is one thing but rogues are very gear dependable, i'm stuck with Tyrannical gear and weapons (Rogues are not that wanted in 2v2 on my realm and i have no time for RBGs). If a rogue has BiS gear they are very powerfull, but if you compare the damage output and CC done by my warrior, WW monk or Shadow priest with the same gear. My rogue is limping a bit behind, i know some macro's could enhance my performance in pvp a bit.

    I'm not saying that rogues are crap at the moment they are just a tool based on old mechanics. Most of the fun parts of rogues in pvp have been removed or baselined (like shadowstep) and i hate the idea of pushing people in the same direction (still a fan of old talent system ). Everyone knows that Sub is the best way to go in PVP, Assasination is oke but i have the feeling that the bleed and Deadly poison dot ticks aren't that powerfull at this time. Every healer can outheal the dot Dmg, if you take a look at Feral kitty druids bleed damage that is something else. Yesterday i had some test duels with a Feral kitty with same gear, his bleeds tick even crit me for 36k dmg. Combat is not that good, yet it provides a descent burst for taking down heavy armored chars with they protective and surviveability spells up. But if you take assassination and combat and compare it to sub they get nowhere near sub performance.

    Maybe i've just lost the passion for rogue, yet i play stealth melee chars in every MMO/RPG. Maybe Blizz should revamp Rogues and put the fun factor back into rogues. Give them a purpose again in the game. Like class specific battleground goals, trap disarming infiltrating and stuff like that. For example one thing i would like is somekind of infiltration spell. "After killing a player grab his 'outfit' and mimic / become that target player for 5 mins or something to you can get close to the enemy"
    Oke we have stealth and stuff but most classes have things to counter Stealth easliy like: flare, hunter macros, totems, aoe stuff and whatever. If something like Infiltration should be introduced there also should be some counterspells for it but it should not be an AOE spell just targeted with 2-3mins CD.

    Ah well just make rogues more fun, give them a purpose now our only purpose is DPS and face it we easily get replaced in RBGs by warriors locks and WW monks.
    Last edited by Rubberpiggie; 2013-12-31 at 10:04 AM.

  10. #10
    you can tell good rogues from bad ones... still decent in arena. warriors really are not that good.... everyone says they are.... but obviously theres not many dot cleaves in your arena cuz warriors cant do shit to that.

  11. #11
    I also think that rogues are not as fun as they used to be. I used to play purely pvp till the end of cata. Being above 2.2k rating in 2 seasons. In mop I have been playing pvp with my rogue less and less every patch and in the latest patch I havent even bothered capping points. The gameplay has changed with things like subterfuge and burst of speed. Both very annoying spells which dont make rogue op because of other disabilities right now. Before they would have been the most op things ever.

    Rogue used to be cooldown dependant to survive a good fight. Def cooldowns were long but you could reset them. But they were very effective cooldowns. Now there are a handful of physical stuns that cant be dodged. Its stupid to pop evasion only to be shockwaved and stormbolted and then killed.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    exactly -

    In my opinion people see how well rogues can be when someone skilled is behind the keyboard, so they then level a rogue. But they have not mastered it so they are not as good, thus calling for buffs or changes so they can be good.

    If you buff the derps playing the rogues, by removing SnD and the like. it makes those that are really good at it OP.

    I tried to explain it well, but my brain isnt functioning very well today.
    I think the point is that a derp playing rogue will underperform greatly, while a derp-playing anything else will still do *something*, even if it's derp. So basically, easy-to-learn-hard-to-master applies to everything else except rogues, where rogues are pro-only in order to be efficient. This is not okay design (even though I personally like it).

    I like rogues and I'm definitely rerolling one next expansion - this is a huge thing for me, maining a warlock for years and years and being very attached to it. However, I do feel a lot of rogues mechanics are really... Old. S&D, to name an obvious one. Mostly the ramp up time before you start doing something in pvp is what got me. Also, I really hate the way energy works in this game, remember early this expansion? Energy was so slow rogues were collectively falling asleep behind their keyboards. It's why I quit playing mine, honestly. "It will get better with gear"..... There's a reason why they scrapped that concept on warriors. Rogues need to follow. Their playstyle, IMO, should be a fast paced one, with rapid energy regeneration.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    I think the point is that a derp playing rogue will underperform greatly, while a derp-playing anything else will still do *something*, even if it's derp. So basically, easy-to-learn-hard-to-master applies to everything else except rogues, where rogues are pro-only in order to be efficient. This is not okay design (even though I personally like it).

    I like rogues and I'm definitely rerolling one next expansion - this is a huge thing for me, maining a warlock for years and years and being very attached to it. However, I do feel a lot of rogues mechanics are really... Old. S&D, to name an obvious one. Mostly the ramp up time before you start doing something in pvp is what got me. Also, I really hate the way energy works in this game, remember early this expansion? Energy was so slow rogues were collectively falling asleep behind their keyboards. It's why I quit playing mine, honestly. "It will get better with gear"..... There's a reason why they scrapped that concept on warriors. Rogues need to follow. Their playstyle, IMO, should be a fast paced one, with rapid energy regeneration.
    The "new updated" mechanics applied to other classes is exactly why pvp became shit once cata hit. Every derp could suddenly do a pve rotation and be somewhat successful. Mop even went a step further, every derp could just press the oneshot macro and be somewhat successful.

    Btw, if anyone is still stuck in the 1800 shitters he should probably l2p the class first before "updating" class/game mechanics.

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