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  1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Babylonius's Avatar
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    Comparing Raid Guilds

    So this has been bugging me a long time, and in some places its more prevalent than others. Obviously a huge part of cutting edge raiding is competition with others. The rankings on WoWProgress are often used to mean the higher rank you are, the better your guild, or the better the players are. I believe this is only half of the truth.

    In many cases I've found guild masters, raiders, and others are place huge emphasis on raid rankings, whether its Server, Region, World, etc. I think that's all well and good, but it doesn't take schedule into place. Recently my guild has been lagging behind another guild on our server who transferred here this expansion. We raid T/W/Th for 3.5 hours each night, with an optional Sunday for cleanup, not progression. The other guild on our server raids M/T/W/Th for 4.5 hours each night with Sundays during progression. We're 12/14H and they just killed H Garrosh last night. Falling a boss or 2 behind brings added pressure and stress into our raids and I feel its totally unnecessary.

    I think its irrational to compare us to them based solely on the current days progression. They've raided at least an extra 3 hours per week more than us, not counting their extra progression day. Which equates to an extra hours of raiding, or 3 more weeks of raiding at our schedule. Counting their extra day they've raided an extra 105 hours than us so far this expansion, or 7 weeks of our schedule. On an even playing field, with equally skilled players we shouldn't stand a chance to keep up with them. We remained mostly even till Siegecrafter where they began to pull ahead, mostly due to the repetitions needed to get the last 3 bosses down, which they were able to get more of per week than us.

    I've always looked for top notch raiding on a minimal schedule, so our 3 night schedule is perfect for me. However I don't think its fair to compare guilds without taking their schedules into account. I'd much rather say I'm apart of the #4 guild raiding less than 12 hours in the world, than the #60th guild in the world. I think total time raiding, and wipes before first kill, are the most important aspects we should be comparing guilds by, in addition to how quickly they get the kills.

    Anyone else run into this problem?
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | EPeen | WoWHeroes | Ascent | WoWProgress

  2. #2
    well i understand what u say but like who cares really ? are your raiders pressure u to extend raiding hours/days to be more competitive ? it doesnt really matter much unless u go for world ...top 10 anyway . i understand that u wanted to get the server first but if u knew they raid more and are ahead of u it was up to your raid team whether they really care about server first - since they didnt exztend it by 1-2 days to catch up it seems they didnt care that much about it. they just worked harder then your guild therefore they deserve it. its jsut like irl those who work harder on same job position earn more . they did u didnt . next chance next tier its your decision whether u want to compete or are comfortable with being behind them
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-12-13 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #3
    Nope.

    That's not an issue AT ALL.

    We raid 10 hours/week and kill 9HC by now, with spoils surely dying this reset. I also know about guilds raiding >20 hours/week progressing on Thok ATM. Does it matter? Not at all, they raid more time, they kill more bosses.

    Where would we be should we double our raid time? No clue, maybe on thok, maybe still on shamans due to burnout, or maybe killing garrosh already.

    World firsts are world firsts, and they raid insane hours to get them, but a 2 boss difference on what, 105 hours? as you stated yourself. How many pulls can you do on 100 hours? somewhere around 250-350 for sure, but the question is, does rankings matter enough to you to justify raiding additional hours? If they do, swap to a guild that raids more, if it doesn't, why bother?

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Naer's Avatar
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    Your guild has the opportunity to work on the boss just as many hours as anyone else. You choose to raid less (as does my guild).

    The race is inherently fair.

  5. #5
    My guild raids 9 hrs and we got black fuse to 5% this week before we had to call it. If we had more time we would have definitely killed it, but then I don't think a lot of us would be here if we raided 12+ hrs like a lot of guilds at this level do.

    There is definitely more of a need to be faster learners than guilds who have the time to bash their heads against a boss for a hundred pulls a week. Just have to be better than them and show them that real progression is about quality raiding with quality players rather than pulling a fight so many times that you're bound to eventually win by circumstance :P

  6. #6
    You are never going to be part of the same race as the guilds who put more hours into raiding and that should not be a problem for your guild. I'm in a 9 hour, 3 day a week 25 man guild that is on Garrosh at the moment, most of our raiders could find a better progressed guild but on the whole most of them are with us because they don't want to raid on a hardcore schedule.

    You can do whatever you want with rankings to make it seem better but at the end of the day it's going to be hard to compare guilds outside of who simply killed the boss quicker, it's then up to you and your members to decide if they want to spend more time raiding to try and compete with these guilds. My guild approaches raiding that we are racing lockouts rather than hardcore guilds as long as we get things killed pre nerfs then we have met that goal. We have been lucky that we have been server first guild for the last two tiers but this tier another guild has come along that is prepared to raid a lot more than us and they have overtaken us in progress, rightly so.

    On my server there are a couple of guilds that raid similar hours to us so it's easy to have a metric to compare ourselves against I also look at our world rank noting that we have improved 100 places since tier 13 and 50 places since tier 14 so I'm happy with that progress even if I don't always show it to our raiders, I am aware you could argue that some of that ranking gain is down to guilds leaving the 25 man scene but I am happy either way, keeping a 25 man guild raiding is an accomplishment in its own right.

    If your progress is causing issues for members of your guild then there is a chance that they are not in the right guild.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Babylonius's Avatar
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    I personally dont' care too much for server firsts, my goal is to maximize the time I can play, so that's more important to me, and why I don't think its fair to compare myself to someone who has more time to make use of.

    I'm not sure how working more hours = working harder... I feel there's a difference between working more and working harder.
    I can try to knock a wall down with a spaghetti noodle every second of every day, and maybe over enough time I will get it done, does that mean I've worked harder than someone who could only hit the wall once a week, but did so with a sledgehammer? *end hyperbole*

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    well i understand what u say but like who cares really ? are your raiders pressure u to extend raiding hours/days to be more competitive ? it doesnt really matter much unless u go for world ...top 10 anyway . i understand that u wanted to get the server first but if u knew they raid more and are ahead of u it was up to your raid team whether they really care about server first - since they didnt exztend it by 1-2 days to catch up it seems they didnt care that much about it. they just worked harder then your guild therefore they deserve it. its jsut like irl those who work harder on same job position earn more . they did u didnt . next chance next tier its your decision whether u want to compete or are comfortable with being behind them
    The problem that is arising is that many raiders in the group are putting, what I feel is, unnecessary stress on ourselves to keep up with them because the guild was server first for all previous expansions, till ToT. Its not as black and white like, we don't want to raid as much as them so we dont' care about server firsts. The care is still there, but the time is not available for everyone.

    My problem is not that they killed it first. They should kill it first, because they had more hours to pour into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naer View Post
    Your guild has the opportunity to work on the boss just as many hours as anyone else. You choose to raid less (as does my guild).
    The race is inherently fair.
    I don't think we have the opportunity to work on the boss as many hours as anyone else, for many of us this schedule is all our real life schedule can allow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennoyer View Post
    My guild raids 9 hrs and we got black fuse to 5% this week before we had to call it. If we had more time we would have definitely killed it, but then I don't think a lot of us would be here if we raided 12+ hrs like a lot of guilds at this level do.

    There is definitely more of a need to be faster learners than guilds who have the time to bash their heads against a boss for a hundred pulls a week. Just have to be better than them and show them that real progression is about quality raiding with quality players rather than pulling a fight so many times that you're bound to eventually win by circumstance :P
    Yes, essentially its a quality over quantity question. Would you rather say "we're the guild with the most amount of time spent on a boss, so we killed it first", or "we spent 30% less time on the boss and killed it a close second". There are many guilds that raid much more than I do now, that are much less progressed. But I don't necessarily believe raiding more = raiding better.
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | EPeen | WoWHeroes | Ascent | WoWProgress

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonius View Post
    The problem that is arising is that many raiders in the group are putting, what I feel is, unnecessary stress on ourselves to keep up with them because the guild was server first for all previous expansions, till ToT. Its not as black and white like, we don't want to raid as much as them so we dont' care about server firsts. The care is still there, but the time is not available for everyone.
    well then u need to make a big guild metteing and deicde what are your plans for next tier so that ur team dont break apart when ull be behind them next tier again. maybe this will cause some of your players to leave if they feel that this isnt the progress which is okay with them. but its better to solve this isssue now not let it grow as a problem and possible drama source.

  9. #9
    You're never gonna be a better athlete than that guy who trains 10 hours a day and takes roids, but that doesn't mean they should give you a bronze medal for being the most athletic person who only exercises 5 seconds a day.

    Also that guild will now clear content in like 4-6 hours weekly when everything goes on farm and they get more gear and improve, so they'll be raiding less than half as much as you very soon.

  10. #10
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    I raid lead a 6 hour/week 10m raiding guild, and we're working on normal Garrosh atm. Yeah, we're one of the top ten guilds on our server, and no doubt could be higher if we simply had more time scheduled to raid. But you know what? We don't. We don't even have an optional day where if someone misses or something pops up, we can all log in on a sunday or something and knock it out then. We raid Monday and Wednesday for 3 hours a night, and if shit happens, then we don't raid until the next Monday or Wednesday.

    Of course, we're all competitive, and we're striving to be one of the top guilds on our server, but we also realize that the amount of time we raid is one of our biggest hurdles. That's why I try to keep things in perspective if we're having a poor night one night - raiding for that amount of time is a HUGE hurdle if you have high expectations. But, all 10 of us know what we signed up for and actually prefer it that way, because it strikes a balance between real life and playing wow for all of us.

    Having said all that, I'm actually very proud of our team/guild, and have met and even exceeded all our goals that we've set for ourselves at the beginning of this expansion. I have no doubt that if we raided more, we'd be more progressed as we have very solid talent in our group. But we're very happy where we're at and we don't let anyone else dictate whether we are successful or a failure. Only YOU know if you guys are playing to your potential and meeting realistic goals. If that's the case, then nothing more really needs to be said.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonius View Post
    I personally dont' care too much for server firsts, my goal is to maximize the time I can play, so that's more important to me, and why I don't think its fair to compare myself to someone who has more time to make use of.

    I'm not sure how working more hours = working harder... I feel there's a difference between working more and working harder.
    I can try to knock a wall down with a spaghetti noodle every second of every day, and maybe over enough time I will get it done, does that mean I've worked harder than someone who could only hit the wall once a week, but did so with a sledgehammer? *end hyperbole*



    The problem that is arising is that many raiders in the group are putting, what I feel is, unnecessary stress on ourselves to keep up with them because the guild was server first for all previous expansions, till ToT. Its not as black and white like, we don't want to raid as much as them so we dont' care about server firsts. The care is still there, but the time is not available for everyone.

    My problem is not that they killed it first. They should kill it first, because they had more hours to pour into it.



    I don't think we have the opportunity to work on the boss as many hours as anyone else, for many of us this schedule is all our real life schedule can allow.



    Yes, essentially its a quality over quantity question. Would you rather say "we're the guild with the most amount of time spent on a boss, so we killed it first", or "we spent 30% less time on the boss and killed it a close second". There are many guilds that raid much more than I do now, that are much less progressed. But I don't necessarily believe raiding more = raiding better.
    The time is available for everyone equally. It's just a matter of how much time you prioritize putting into the game/raiding. You don't deserve special recognition/special rankings just because you choose to prioritize your time differently than another guild.

    Also, sure there are guilds that raid more with less than 12/14H progression, but there is also at least one US 25 man guild that raids less than 10.5 hours a week and already has killed Heroic Garrosh (as well as something like 7 3 dayx4 hour guilds). If there are guilds that can do it on a 9 hour schedule, you can't really use not raiding 5 days a week as an excuse for not killing it ahead of the other guild on your server.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Thete's Avatar
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    Although you are correct that rankings are not a fair test, scientifically speaking, there are also counter arguments. Yes, if two guilds match each other for progress and one raids 24 hours a week and the other raids 12 hours, the latter is clearly the best guild. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that a guild a bit behind another but one that raids fewer hours a week may necessarily be just as good. The guild that raids fewer hours is getting gear more quickly when using hours raided as the baseline. You simply can't base ranking on progress divided by hours raided because that really is unfair.

    At the end of the day, rankings do matter. As a raider, you should be aware that overall gaming experience is more important that pure progress, but if you're in the market for a new guild, and you have no insider information, you are likely to pick the one with the most progress for the times you can raid.

    Also remember that you are not competing with a guild that raids more hours. Raid times/days are more important than progress; no point in applying to any guild if you can't make their raid times. Similarly, most raiders join a guild whose raid days match the days (or number of days at least) that they want to fill up with main raiding.
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  13. #13
    I honestly feel the skill of guilds really falls into tiers. There are the guilds that are typically always ranked the top 5 in the world. There then falls guilds who rank anywhere from 6th-50th, 51st - 100, and so on. My point being, I can understand as to why you may see yourselves as being better than that specific guild that raids more than you, but there really is no way to prove that. They are using the tools given to them, and to me that is completely legitmate. There is also the argument that they potentially killed some of the later bosses with less gear due to them perhaps dying a lockout or two ahead of you.

    So again, to me a guild reaches a certain point in which I feel they are equally as skilled as a lot of the comparable guilds around them. It's then up to the individual guild on the resources they chose to utilize to gain a competitive edge.

    Also, this may not really apply to you, but even though the top guilds in the world raid a crazy amount of hours, that does not mean it is the only reason they are able to kill bosses first. They kill heroic content with far less gear, and no strategies already mapped out online or youtube.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonius View Post
    Falling a boss or 2 behind brings added pressure and stress into our raids and I feel its totally unnecessary.
    why? who is adding this pressure and stress?

    you are choosing to raid fewer hours, so you are choosing to not compete for realm firsts. seems simple.

    you can't say, "i want to raid less, but still be first in progression". if you're looking for a ranking of bosses killed/hour raided, i don't think you're going to get it anytime soon. personally, i would love to see such a ranking, but it would be pretty hard to track honestly.

    if you want to compete on a level playing field, go get top realm challenge modes times, or top realm proving grounds scores. that's what those were added for.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Thete View Post
    Also remember that you are not competing with a guild that raids more hours. Raid times/days are more important than progress; no point in applying to any guild if you can't make their raid times. Similarly, most raiders join a guild whose raid days match the days (or number of days at least) that they want to fill up with main raiding.
    depends there are some 4 days raid guidls which require players to attend 75 % minumum but dont mind if people skip 1-2 days (as long as people say it 1 day in advance and it isnt 6 people at the same time suddenly wanting free day :P) - they just keep a lil bigger rooster -14-16 players which in long run is good cause they can swap more on progress bosses - and on farm days aka wednesday most often they just swap out people depending which bosses they need gear from - i have raiding alt in such guild and their raid atmospehere soo relaxed and laid back that i havent seen it in really long time and they are 9/14 HC atm with super laid back attitude -_- ofc they wont go for server first ever but man its super fun to raid with them.

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire Thete's Avatar
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    I did say that people should recognise that overall raiding experience is more important than progress. But those people will still have joined that guild based chiefly on their times being compatible with the guild's.
    Retribution Paladin

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  17. #17
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    Yeah it's retarded and there is no good comparison. There should be a metric to compare guilds compared to the # of hours they raid per week but such a tool doesn't exist.

    The only thing you can take into account when joining a guild is if you can make their raiding times and what their progression is.

    The only thing you can take into account when comparing guilds is what their progress is, because of variations in raid times and other factors. At the top for world first, it's whatever it takes to win, no one gives a fuck about how many hours a guild puts in. And besides those people, progression doesn't matter to be honest. Raid for world first, realm first, or for yourself. Period.

  18. #18
    The Patient Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    I've never liked this argument, its too selfish. What do you expect wowprogress to create separate world rank lists based on number of hours guilds raid as well? So Method/Blood Legion would be the only two in their category ever?

    At the end of the day there will always be a guild that raids more hours then you, or heck a guild that progresses faster then you while raiding less. It happens, deal with it.

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  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Babylonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    I've never liked this argument, its too selfish. What do you expect wowprogress to create separate world rank lists based on number of hours guilds raid as well? So Method/Blood Legion would be the only two in their category ever?

    At the end of the day there will always be a guild that raids more hours then you, or heck a guild that progresses faster then you while raiding less. It happens, deal with it.
    WoWProgress has done something close to this in the listing guilds by the days the raid. This allows you to see who is the best guild that raids 3x a week, 4x a week, etc. Its mainly used for finding a guild that fits your needs, but it does work to tell you the order of who is the most progressed on 3 nights of raiding. That rank, even though there is a big difference between 3x a week for 3 hours and 5 hours, is more indicative of comparing one guild to another, in my opinion.

    Based on some of the arguments in this thread, why even separate 10man from 25man. 10mans are making a choice to go 10man, why should they be ranked different. Guilds in EU and US have the same number of hours to raid, why separate those rankings. Guilds chose to be on another server, why separate those rankings. Yes I know this is a totally exaggerated one sided example but, what I'm saying is its all arbitrary. Saying you're the best guild on the server is chosing the pool you're comparing yourself to, just like 25man or Horde, how many days you raid, or what region you're in.

    Is it rational to expect that you can keep up with a 5 night guild as a 3 night guild? No, but that doesn't stop people in those groups from making those comparisons and being upset if they fall behind. The guild we fell behind transferred here during ToT, for years my guild was top on the server raiding our schedule, beating out those who raided more and those who raided less. As I said previously, I'm not playing for the rankings, but in a guild pushing for rankings, as most top100 guilds are, being lower in the rankings than a rival guild rarely brings positive feelings.
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  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire Thete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonius View Post
    WoWProgress has done something close to this in the listing guilds by the days the raid. This allows you to see who is the best guild that raids 3x a week, 4x a week, etc. Its mainly used for finding a guild that fits your needs, but it does work to tell you the order of who is the most progressed on 3 nights of raiding. That rank, even though there is a big difference between 3x a week for 3 hours and 5 hours, is more indicative of comparing one guild to another, in my opinion.
    .
    Not really. My last guild raided 3 nights a week and my current guild raids 4. Do I raid 33% more now? No, because we both raid 12 hours a week.
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