[MW] "Cherrypicking"

[Astraios]

Indeed.

Disc priest is like babby's first tricycle, MW is like riding a unicycle while juggling hot potatoes and household cutlery. Not spending every GCD hurts and you still have massive overheals.

Open up your phone book and call every police department within a 50 mile radius, then get back to me on that.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Jab/jab/uplift destroyed soothing mist for chi generation/healing, and saying anything otherwise simply makes you ignorant. (@Maggot, no, it was significantly lower, and still would likely be lower today even with massive haste levels and the chi generation buff if jab was sustainable with mana.)
So far Incredibale, you are demonstrating extremely offensive opinions with no backing or logical reasoning behind the personal attacks on totaltotemic, so, please stop while you're behind. Thanks.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

@Maggot, no, it was significantly lower, and still would likely be lower today even with massive haste levels and the chi generation buff if jab was sustainable with mana.

what do you mean? Sooth vs Jab? Or pre 5.2 Sooth vs post 5.2 Sooth?
The only thing I'm saying is that Sooth was also a decent Chi builder pre 5.2 It wasn't as good as Jab of course, but an option at range.
it has not improved that much in the mean while, only from our haste increase and the ~14% buff due to luck protection, so it's generation is only about 20% higher now than pre 5.2 Sooth

[Astraios]

what do you mean? Sooth vs Jab? Or pre 5.2 Sooth vs post 5.2 Sooth?
The only thing I'm saying is that Sooth was also a decent Chi builder pre 5.2 It wasn't as good as Jab of course, but an option at range.
it has not improved that much in the mean while, only from our haste increase and the ~14% buff due to luck protection, so it's generation is only about 20% higher now than pre 5.2 Sooth

I meant before the buff, jab destroyed it (and most fights that patch was optimal for us to be in melee) in terms of efficiency and HPS.
Haste levels increased from 3k to 12k lol, so it's much stronger comparatively.

[Incredibale]

I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Jab/jab/uplift destroyed soothing mist for chi generation/healing, and saying anything otherwise simply makes you ignorant. (@Maggot, no, it was significantly lower, and still would likely be lower today even with massive haste levels and the chi generation buff if jab was sustainable with mana.)
So far Incredibale, you are demonstrating extremely offensive opinions with no backing or logical reasoning behind the personal attacks on totaltotemic, so, please stop while you're behind. Thanks.

Please stop fanning the flames and leave well enough alone, thanks. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Kaeth]

Please stop fanning the flames and leave well enough alone, thanks.

Agreed. It's fairly obvious that you're blatantly trolling, so gnorrior and totaltotemic can safely ignore you entirely and get on with the real discussion here. A discussion in a world where 5.0 and 5.1 actually existed, and guaranteed chi generation is not magically considered inferior to streaky RNG just for the sake of stubborn argument.

[Incredibale]

Agreed. It's fairly obvious that you're blatantly trolling, so gnorrior and totaltotemic can safely ignore you entirely and get on with the real discussion here. A discussion in a world where 5.0 and 5.1 actually existed, and guaranteed chi generation is not magically considered inferior to streaky RNG just for the sake of stubborn argument.

That's not what he was talking about. What are you talking about?

[Manabomb]

Pressing a button because it's an easy way to do better healing that wasn't even intended to be used for healing is cherrypicking. Balancing Fistweaving was impossible as long as Jab was used for healing purposes and it trivialized Soothing/SCK chi generation when you could just press Jab and have all the chi you wanted. They tried to fix it with Muscle Memory but then in the very same patch introduced the LMG which completely undid that fix anyways.

They want to be able to design abilities without fear of other parts of the spec abusing them for unintended purposes (or "cherrypicking"). This is why Fistweaving is getting its own stance, the abuse will never end if it doesn't.

Except all that does is add a gcd to what fistweaving and mistweaving are in their current iteration and does not fix anything. If anything they should be balancing around the idea that jab could be used as a chi generator in place of soothing/sck mainly because sck costs a ridiculous amount of mana and soothings rng in any iteration (even the most recent one) is stupid.

They need to step away from the layered rng approach to MW. It's asinine, and completely convoluted in the sense that it's difficult to gauge when you'll have chi for when you'll need it and forces you to rely on talents like chibrew for even non-emergency situations.

Overall, the only good iteration of mw this expansion was jab jab uplift, because at the time fistweaving was half a spec and paled (still does) to discipline priests in every way save for burst damage and mistweaving was layered rng on top of layered rng. It was not fun to watch your raid get murdered around you while you sat there channeling soothing and getting no chi procs, it's still not fun. What was fun was a reliable and consistent way to generate chi to be able to counter boss mechanics by being able to predict and counter raid wide burst.

When they can balance around consistent and reliable chi generation, then you can have fistweaving in it's own stance. Every other iteration will only ever be rife with abuse because soothing mist sucks and sck is inefficient in the best of environments.

[Geodew]

A big mistake blizz made AFTER they already bitched about our mana, was giving us 2 free mana tea stacks with each use of a 2 charge chi brew? Why the hell give us more mana if you feel we dont value it enough? Now this I admit was a mistake, 2 free stacks of mana tea, absolutely free of charge, we dont have to exert anything more than a click, thats not even on the GCD. Noone asked for this. Don't know what blizz was thinking 'You have too much mana, but here, have some more, but this time, free with a button click'

PvP Reasons. Blizz knew we had way too much mana anyway so giving us more would barely affect us, but buff PvP MWers by a fair bit, who struggle with mana (because our single-target healing needs a redesign).

8) Our one and only tank / single target healing cooldown, is no better than PW:S. And its on a 3 minute cooldown. THREE MINUTES FOR THAT LITTLE THING.

2-3 times stronger. Exaggeration is unhelpful feedback.

10) Our talent choices aren't really strong healing wise ... lvl 90 talents may be okay (RJW isnt better than SCK in practise) ... but compare them to priest talents on all tiers. Actually, just take a look at lvl 90 priest talents ... ZOMGWTFBBQ ... divine star / halo ... even cascade ... you can adapt so perfectly to the fight at hand. I guess at lvl 90 tier talents were better off than poor resto shammies, but look at resto's other tiers, absolutely amazing, and as we saw with the inclusion of double healing stream, game changing. Nothing we have comes close to that kind of healing output on the talent side of things. Also, our glyphs are way too cookie cutter. No interesting choices to be made there.

Comparing individual talent tiers is unhelpful. You have to compare the entire package of the class.

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Agreed. It's fairly obvious that you're blatantly trolling, so gnorrior and totaltotemic can safely ignore you entirely and get on with the real discussion here. A discussion in a world where 5.0 and 5.1 actually existed, and guaranteed chi generation is not magically considered inferior to streaky RNG just for the sake of stubborn argument.

It's not just the fact that the chi gen was guaranteed; you need almost 100% spell haste for spam-SooM to match the chi generation rate of Jab, even post-buff.

Jab: 1 chi/sec
pre-buff SooM: 0.3 chi/tick avg
post-buff SooM: 0.34 chi/tick avg

SooM spam has 3 ticks/sec at 100% spell haste

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding the problem that Chi gen is too RNG for a healing spec, and they were planning on making chi generation slower (and thus the variance would increase; if you passed your Statistics class you should understand that):

I mentioned the following to Celestalon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GeodewMW/status/410318680786882560

Transcription (cleaned up a bit):

If you guys make Chi gen slower, can you at least make it not very RNG? Why no "Chi bar" with a max of 400-500 instead of 4-5?
e.g. SooM gives 35 chi per tick, ReM gives 100 chi per cast, Uplift costs 200 chi, Ascension increases max to 500.
Then from there you can do tweaks like make ReM give 70 chi instead of 100, SooM give 30 instead of 35, etc etc.
Would certainly differentiate it from Holy Power more, if you guys or any other monks care about that (I don't).
Reglitch: What does this do except add two zeros to the number?
Instead of 35% chance to get chi, you can get 0.35 chi, but decimals in WoW resources are gross.
The alternative would be a buff that stacks to 100 and then you get 1 chi, but why do that instead of a chi bar?
My concern was that if everything becomes x% chance to generate chi then our chi generation is too RNG for a heal spec.
I'm aware of how SooM chi generation bad-luck protection works, but it seems like it would be hard/unintuitive to include more spells in that.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

It's not just the fact that the chi gen was guaranteed; you almost 100% spell haste for spam-SooM to match the chi generation rate of Jab, even post-buff.

Jab: 1 chi/sec
pre-buff SooM: 0.3 chi/tick avg
post-buff SooM: 0.34 chi/tick avg

SooM spam has 3 ticks/sec at 100% spell haste

Yes you won't match Jabs Chi gen that fast, as you said you need about 100% haste.
On the other hand you get quite high with current haste levels.
e.g. at 9k BP, you have 1 + 1.389 = 2.389 ticks/sec, which results in 2.389 * 0.342 = 0.82 Chi/sec.
You're not that far off Jabs Chigen. At least it's much cheaper, at range, and does a bit of healing.

[Geodew]

Yes you won't match Jabs Chi gen that fast, as you said you need about 100% haste.
On the other hand you get quite high with current haste levels.
e.g. at 9k BP, you have 1 + 1.389 = 2.389 ticks/sec, which results in 2.389 * 0.342 = 0.82 Chi/sec.
You're not that far off Jabs Chigen. At least it's much cheaper, at range, and does a bit of healing.

Yes, that's a result of the fact that you have 2 ticks/sec with SooM spam even at 0% spell haste. That's 0.6 chi/sec pre-buff and 0.68 chi/sec post-buff. That's already decently high.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Yes, that s a result of the fact that you have 2 ticks/sec with SooM spam even at 0% spell haste. That's 0.6 chi/sec pre-buff and 0.68 chi/sec post-buff. That's already decently high.

Yes thats what I'm trying to say, as others were claiming that sooths chigen was very low pre 5.2

[Geodew]

Yes thats what I'm trying to say, as others were claiming that sooths chigen was very low pre 5.2

Right, and confirming that it doesn't have that much to do with haste ;P Those who didn't know about the spam, though, would find it quite underwhelming, I imagine.