Hunters getting mana back?

[Taurous]

If changing from Mana to Focus was a "massive revamp", and we are not getting a "massive revamp" next expansion, then we are not going back to Mana.

[Deleted]

I have gave out arguments it's just that everyone denys it out of spite. ill deny their "arguments for focus" in return.

What arguments? Only thing I have read is you stating 'facts' that mana would bring hunters and subs back, and how all loved mana. You just pull things out the black hole, as well do you seem to shoot yourself in the foot with your attempts to argue against others how you played/not played hunter with focus etc.

Then I'm gonna pull my facts; Focus is best, all Hunters love it. If they take it away, all Hunters will implode and no Hunter class is left.

Wonder if people will fall for it.

[esach88]

Diablo real life AH when was implemented was tiny and irrelevant too and now they're removing it, I hear lots of people coming back now. What makes Wow any different?

the RLAH completely changed how to game worked in terms of loot. It wasn't a small addition/removal. The console D3's are way better because of the simple fact there is no RLAH. It was a massive change that ruined the game. Focus on a hunter was not lol

[Alvito]

It's not small and irrelevant why do you think it was called a massive revamp?

In the same post they mention a massive revamp they also say they aren't touching their resource.

Mana was a horrible feature for hunters, in many cases or raids it wasn't an issue you paid no attention to it. Then you had the flip side of the coin where raids didnt have int buffs or mp5 buffs/totems and hunters dps were majorly gimped due to a raids set up. Having resources you never need to pay attention to is a poor design. If there were ever going to go back to mana for some reason they might as well just have nothing and just give hunters a life bar and call it a day.

[Hayro1]

I bought a lvl 90 hunter and tried it out got to 545 ilvl. So I don't get infracted back on topic: plus lots of people that play it out side of mmo champ state how bad they are.

You bought a toon, and expect us to value your opinion one bit, especially now? LOL. Thanks for confirming you're a troll.

[Hoofey]

Ok, first things first.

Sustained on a single-target fight? at 545? Bullshit, and you know it. Quit trying to backpedal.

Yeah, Locks with Heroic gear, not Hunters in gear that's just barely above Flex (and I even doubt those numbers)...Seriously, you can't possibly be this dense. I main a Hunter and I'm at 562. I know what I'm talking about here.

What are you trying to say? That 200k dps with 545 is impossible?
You sir, need to step up your game if you think that 200k is impossible with that kind of gear, i had 543 at the end of ToT (10mans :| ) and i got countless logs where i did 200-250k, on fights like Durumu, Twins and say, DA. Usually 250k +\- on DA since we zerged it.


Now, back to hordeslayer.

I've seen you on the forums here from time to time, from the time you asked for help to improve your clicking (saying it was your "friend" who needed help), the transmog post you made with Doomarcher, and to the 2 threads you made about hunter mana. At the same time denying that the hunter you linked was yours.

Up until now.
You know you have lost all credibility in here right? No one here gives a shit about your opinion anymore because of all this crap.

I have gave out arguments it's just that everyone denys it out of spite. ill deny their "arguments for focus" in return.

Your arguments are pointless and holds no ground.
If you read between the lines, all you see is "I want my easy as f rotation back, that way dps'ing require no effort and management whatsoever"
If thats your playstyle, fine. At least be honest about it instead of making up all that stuff.


People are in no way "denying it out of spite", they are trying to give you their opinion about it, and 90% of the opinions here differs from yours.
If you cant accept that people actually enjoy focus, you need to take a step back and figure out if this class is something you should continue playing or not.

And at the same time work on your social skills, you wont get far with your arguments if you keep going like this.

[kenn9530]

hunters will never get mana back, it made no sense and didn't make the class any harder than it is now, hell no class is hard to play. Every class has a pretty basic rotation and hunter is no exception its the little things you master that break good players from the bad.

So no hunters will never ever get mana back as a resource and it will not bring in any players back, especially since more than 90% of the player base is casual anyway.

Mana you didn't even have to pay attention to it bar the start of the exp the rest of the time hunter rotation was easy mode, at least with focus if you screw the rotation up it will affect your dps so if encourages you to play better.

hordeslayer your points are completely invalid especially due to your own admission you have not even played the current hunter properly so you have no basis in fact of a comparison to mana and focus.

[Deleted]

if someone QUIT THE GAME because they removed mana and put focus instead of it, then blizzard definitly doesnt need their subs nor money.

[anjan011]

Ok, first things first.




What are you trying to say? That 200k dps with 545 is impossible?
You sir, need to step up your game if you think that 200k is impossible with that kind of gear, i had 543 at the end of ToT (10mans :| ) and i got countless logs where i did 200-250k, on fights like Durumu, Twins and say, DA. Usually 250k +\- on DA since we zerged it.

You gotta remember back then we had RPPM trinks, stacking haste and having renataki/bad zuzu would have greater chance to proc and hit really hard. those trinks were beast back then. so u cant really compare 543 tot heroic geared state with today's half timeless and half flex 543, the comparison won't be even near.

[Hoofey]

You gotta remember back then we had RPPM trinks, stacking haste and having renataki/bad zuzu would have greater chance to proc and hit really hard. those trinks were beast back then. so u cant really compare 543 tot heroic geared state with today's half timeless and half flex 543, the comparison won't be even near.

I've seen several flex geared hunters with some timeless isle parts doing 250k.
Sure, it depends a lot on the gear you have, but with a few tier parts, 1 or 2 good trinkets and a decent understanding of how hunters work in general, hitting 200k is really easy nowadays.


Edit:
Bottom line is, doing 200k with http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rcher/advanced should be more than doable.

...even with his horrible reforging.

[Pengalor]

Ok, first things first.
What are you trying to say? That 200k dps with 545 is impossible?
You sir, need to step up your game if you think that 200k is impossible with that kind of gear, i had 543 at the end of ToT (10mans :| ) and i got countless logs where i did 200-250k, on fights like Durumu, Twins and say, DA. Usually 250k +\- on DA since we zerged it..

You have "countless logs" yet you don't post them? You were at 543? What, did you have double upgraded Heroic Thunderforged in every single slot? Somehow I doubt it. Even if you did I highly doubt you were pulling those kinds of numbers. You can dig at my abilities all you want but I'm an above average player and I still highly doubt the number.

[threads]

You have "countless logs" yet you don't post them? You were at 543? What, did you have double upgraded Heroic Thunderforged in every single slot? Somehow I doubt it. Even if you did I highly doubt you were pulling those kinds of numbers. You can dig at my abilities all you want but I'm an above average player and I still highly doubt the number.

200k+ was very common during heroic ToT with 540+ ilvl. And that was before people had legendary cloaks.

[Aion]

This change was made over 3 years ago, if someone really did quit over this do you really think they will come back to it 3 and a half years later cause YAY MANA IS BACK!! That's a moronic proposition. Hell I'm a moron for responding to this troll thread.

[WeaponXAnimosity]

Although it was fun to play a hunter using mana back then, I prefer focus. Back then, DPS would suffer once you went OOM and had to regenerate it by using Aspect of the Viper. Focus allows hunters to keep DPSing indefinitely, with a little more resource management required.

[Dellis0991]

Hell naw!!!

[Chrysia]

I wonder if the OP was a mage he'd argue for bringing back wanding to regen mana.

[darkwarrior42]

I have gave out arguments it's just that everyone denys it out of spite. ill deny their "arguments for focus" in return.

Ok, I'll try once more because I'm bored (and responding to threads like this, whether or not the OP is even remotely serious, amuses me). What follows is from your first post in this thread, since in no other post anywhere have you provided any evidence or arguments for why mana should return other than "because I want it" dressed up in various ways. In your first post, you wrote the following, and I will respond to each point in succession:

I've heard from blizz that hunters/rogues will be getting some changes among specs to make them different but without revamping them. This sounds like a good time to add back mana instead of focus for one out of the three specs we have probably marksmanship.

So far, we have opinion; you focus on marksmanship, so that's where I'll focus if needed.

This will obviously be a good thing for hunters hopefully they will balance them back and make them more enjoyable because right now it takes little to no skill to play compared to other classes such as a feral druid and still be at the top of the dps charts.

This is an assertion, but so far has no fact or evidence to support it. If you feel it is obvious, you still must point to what facts make this the case.

The problem with focus is it didn't address the biggest issue they had with was resource management If they made steady shot to regain perhaps 1% mana regain per shot we would have been fine. In fact it made it worse and they didn't do anything to it which made them low on the dps charts and what they did to "fix" them is boost the dmg of their shots which is more of a band-aid fix than anything now were extremely way up the top hitting almost around 400k dps. That's not balance.

1) Numbers aren't relevant. They can be tweaked in numerous ways, and don't have an impact on mechanics. Either way, boosting the damage of abilities that are a core part of the rotation isn't a "band-aid" fix. (A band-aid would be randomly boosting the attack power bonus of Aspect of the Hawk because hunter damage is scaling properly through the various tiers of an expansion.)
2) The only part of the change from mana to focus that directly impacted damage output was the removal of aspect of the viper. Yes, hunters are limited in how often than can use their shots based on focus... except that every focus shot except arcane shot still has a cooldown, and is optimally used on cooldown, just like they were pre-cata (keeping in mind that pre-cata, Aimed Shot was just another instant cast, not something that took any management beyond "hit it on cooldown"), and steady shot was always used as a filler... so the only changes were:
--2a) Removal of aspect of the viper as being irrelevant. This means that you no longer need to watch your resource for the purpose of ensuring that you only go into a regen phase when using low priority shots, such as steady or maybe arcane shot, so that you always have hawk up for the hard hitting abilities.
--2b) Arcane Shot no longer has a cooldown, which means you now must watch your resource to make sure you aren't using arcane shot at a time when it will deprive you of the necessary focus for hitting a higher priority shot as it comes off cooldown.
--2c) Aimed Shot is not a cast time shot that consumes focus, which marksmanship hunters can use for additional damage output, subject to similar constraints as Arcane Shot (assuming no "Fire!" procs for instant cast Aimed Shots).
--2d) Unlike mana, being at maximum focus is inherently detrimental do dps, so you must now also watch your resource to ensure you aren't wasting focus by sitting at maximum focus.
Now, whether 2a-2d make the rotation more or less challenging is somewhat subjective. I find the focus system more challenging and more engaging, because mana management in Wrath typically came down to hitting my macro that toggled between hawk/viper whenever I was below XX% mana and using steady shot, while managing focus requires me not only to watch my resource but my various ability cooldowns as well.

And then they added all of this other stuff which we didn't need: shoot on the move, stealth, bl, brez, which had little effect on pve.

Being able to attack while moving has a huge effect on gameplay. Everything else is situational, and all of this is completely irrelevant to the central issue of "should hunters go back to mana", so I'll just ignore this sentence as you not liking the fact that they changed anything. If you believe any of this is somehow relevant to the issue of whether or not mana should ever make a return, feel free to explain why.

Hunters were the most balanced in pve, during Wrath and it did take more skill to play just to even 3rd in dps charts. We were mostly around the middle, and yes the there was more to it than "switching to viper to back" anyone that played a hunter back then would know lol. I was always at the top and knew how to efficient with my resource management which takes skill too without having to sacrifice any dps.

Being a good hunter did involve more than just switching to and from viper; however, most of the other things it involved were more about situational awareness and monitoring the cooldowns of your abilities, all of which is very much still a part of being a hunter (or any successful player, really).

Still, let's take this one more in-depth, since this is really the crux of your argument: that regardless of numbers, marksmanship hunters with mana during WotLK were more challenging, and therefore more fun. Since you have declined to actually provide any substantive arguments, relying solely on your opinion and claims without evidence or validation, I'll see what I can provide on my own. Here we have a link to an old MM guide from the WotLK era: http://huntsmanslodge.com/the-raidin...-marksmanship/

In it, you see a talent build, ability rotation, everything you'd need. Lots of discussion on armor penetration and when/if you should drop arcane shot (a non-physical ability) from your rotation based on your armor pen.. and interesting discussion, but irrelevant since the removal of armor penetration had nothing to do with hunter mana, and would have happened even if they didn't implement focus.

Aside from standard rotational advice on prioritizing certain abilities, here are the relevant portions of the guide that related to mana usage:
-Never use Chimera Shot during Aspect of the Viper (AotV), since not only will the shot do reduced damage but the newly refreshed Serpent Sting will also do less damage until you refresh it again while not in AotV.
-Marksmanship uses more mana than the other specs, so pay closer attention to your mana than you would with the other specs
-It is generally advised to only use Steady Shot while using AotV, since it is the most mana-efficient shot and suffers least from the damage penalty.

So, we have three broad points about marksmanship play that are based around the mana resource... to satisfy them, simply shift into AotV when low on mana, and shift back into SotH either when your mana is sufficiently high or when you're about to hit an important shot (such as Chimera Shot).

All other advice in the guide is generally outside the scope of the question "should hunters get mana back", since even if that were to happen it would happen using the new mechanics/talents/pets/etc... in other words, even if Marksmanship hunters in WoD used mana, they'd still be WoD hunters with mana, not WotLK hunters with mana. However, if you feel there is some other element in the guide I have linked that is relevant to the mana question, feel free to point it out; the information contained in the guide generally matches up with what I remember from playing my Draenei hunter in ICC, however.


I cannot find a good MM guide here on MMO, but on Ice Veins we have their rotation/ability/cooldown guide for Marksmanship: http://www.icy-veins.com/marksmanshi...owns-abilities

If you look at their section on resource management, it comes down to:
-Make sure you always have enough focus for your shots that have cooldowns when they come off cooldown
-Don't focus cap

To do that, you simply monitor how much focus you have and make sure you hit arcane shot if you would focus cap, don't hit arcane shot if it'll drop you below what you need for your next big ability.

Is that more or less complex than shifting into AotV for SS when low on mana and shifting back to AotH for important shots? That is, despite what you claim, somewhat subjective, though I personally believe it to be more complex. Why? By design, mana depletes and builds slowly compared to resources such as energy/rage/focus. When you're low on mana, even as a hunter, it takes some time to build it back up. However, it also takes time to use it up, and when hunters had mana every ability except SS had a cooldown on it. That means that whether or not you had mana, you couldn't simply spam those abilities, and when they were off cooldown it was always a good idea to hit them (assuming no unusual raid conditions). So, if you establish that you want to be in AotH for every shot except SS, the only question that remains is: as I cast SS, do I need more mana? If yes, than you switch to AotV, then back to AotH when you're about to cast something else; if no, then you don't. It really was that simple, despite your claims to the contrary.

If you disagree with my analysis, that is your right. However, do not claim that those who disagree with you are simply ignoring your arguments; your "arguments" are little more than your opinion presented as objective fact, and the fact that most haven't bothered to dissect them in detail speaks not to their unwillingness to take on your arguments, but to the lack of substance present in your arguments in the first place.

[Deleted]

Diablo real life AH when was implemented was tiny and irrelevant too and now they're removing it, I hear lots of people coming back now. What makes Wow any different?

Because a AH where everyone in the game has to either work with or find a way around it. Not everyone is playing a hunter mate.

[Duravian]

Then you can run out of mana and autoshot once again! Rejoice!

[Redpanda]

Then you can run out of mana and autoshot once again! Rejoice!

with how the game is mana for hunters just has no place

@tanjon @MethodRoger There will not be any new resources for Rogues/Hunters. Again, not an overhaul.

just encase