The 12th class will be the last class in WoW.

[Talen]

Tinker was presented in Warcraft as a goblin with very eccentric forms of combat and design. The Tinker's image is already defined from Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm.

True, but its image as as a tech based character wasn't touched.

That's way more baggage than a Bard Class that has not yet existed

The baggage come from the trope in general...not just from WoW but from all games. The Bard is a rogue like support character who uses music. The baggage lies with the trope and not with any specific Warcraft iteration. Players suggesting Bard classes, for example, keep on putting forward minor variants of that Bard stereotype.

But it would likely be as far removed from the Tinker concept to no longer be inspired by the Warcraft 3 Tinker at all

I'd hope so.The only thing worth saving from that is - IMO - the name...and that only because the name Tinker has become associated with tech classes. I'm not really a fan of the CP - at least as it currently stands. As I've said, my preference would be for something like the various Operatives we see in game.

I can see a Tech class using a CP system but to me, it's just a bit too silly for a general class...for a Goblin Tinker? It might fit them but I don't think it'd fit any other race.

Becaues WoW is a fantasy game, not scifi/steampunk game.

WOW is a hybrid environment, that mixes S&S with Steampunk.

Technology is a backdrop and something used by NPCs and bosses only to keep it that way.

Its a backdrop....that forms a major part of the Gnome character, forms a major part of the world history, is hugely visible in several zones, is available to the player, and so on. The Draenei, Worgen, Gnomes, Dwarves and Goblins are all industrialised and tech races. Players can learn the Engineering profession and make use of mechanical pets and mounts.

You may not like it, but Tech is just as much backdrop as magic is. We have guns and cars and planes and subs and AIs and robots and orbital weaponry and trains...and that's just the Alliance.

None. Only classical fantasy class that is open currently in WoW is bard, and that won't be in the game because it's support role.

Assuming it keeps a support role. And simply because you want to deny the game worlds technological aspect doesn't mean Blizzard has to.

EJL

[fixx]

It's still the largest theme in the game behind swords and sorcery. There's actually more tech in the game than martial arts, and we have a martial arts class in the game.

WOW is a hybrid environment, that mixes S&S with Steampunk.

You may not like it, but Tech is just as much backdrop as magic is.

With 1% presence it's ludicrous to claim tech needs to have it's own class or is anything more than a footnote in Azeroth. Keep on dreaming, it wont happen.

Assuming it keeps a support role. And simply because you want to deny the game worlds technological aspect doesn't mean Blizzard has to.

Bard in all other games is a support role. It's really hard to turn it into anything else while retaining it's theme. But on the other hand you two don't give a damn about theme anyway, or even understand what the word means.

I got tired of responding to someone who is clueless about the topic.

I dare you to even try to explain that in a satisfactory manner with no strawmen anywhere.

Or just admit you're wrong... You can do it, it wont kill you.

[Deleted]

I love the logic - "Theres space for another mail user so that HAS to be the last!!!"

Please.

[dacoolist]

I'm super happy they aren't adding a new one for WoD, because HOLY $H!T there is a LOT of balance issues already at the moment.

[Ielenia]

I love the logic - "Theres space for another mail user so that HAS to be the last!!!"
Please.

It seems you haven't read the whole thread. If that's so, you don't know how lucky you are.

[Deleted]

It seems you haven't read the whole thread. If that's so, you don't know how lucky you are.

I doubt reading 20 pages on this topic would be a good usage of time.

[Thimagryn]

It's still the largest theme in the game behind swords and sorcery. There's actually more tech in the game than martial arts, and we have a martial arts class in the game.

Which proves the point that presence of theme isn't as important as you make it out to be. If a niche concept like Martial Arts can be made into a class because it is part of a broad RPG archetype, then it's just as likely for a Bard to be made as a Tinker. Perhaps even more, considering Bard is a fantasy archetype that preceeds Engineers.

I'm not saying it's any less likely for a Tinker to happen, but it's really not any more distinct than any other concept that has potential to exist. Engineer classes in fantasy are a niche trope. There really isn't a limitation to any other theme, since Dragons and Old Gods are just as influential to Warcraft as Tech is.

Even D&D has Dragon Disciples before any sort of Tech-based engineers. Final Fantasy has implemented Bards and has yet to have a dedicated Engineer class, despite having Magitek armor present in the series. You're simply honing in on one aspect of WoW and ignoring all other possibilities. If the Rogue class was derived from the Bandit NPC as you say, then what is preventing a class being based on a Kodo Rider or a Spellbreaker? There really isn't.

[adorich]

topic written again like it was a fact

...And so many people arguing about things that have nothing to do with the fact that we have no idea how many classes Blizzard will introduce in the future. It could be zero, one or ten: we just don't know.

None of the reasons you gave for why they would not add more than a 12th class to the game are relevant. Ultimately they will add more than a 12th class if they feel that they need a new class as a sales pitch for their latest expansion. Then none of the arguments you gave matters, they can just make up something brand new as the basis for a class if they really wanted to. I mean they make us go to to the past in an alternate timeline/reality just so that they could use all the famous Orc characters from the Old Horde era to lure us in. Not saying I disagree with the direction they are taking for this expansion, but it does show that they will do anywhere just to deliver what they think will sell.

I agree. New heros can be created and/or retconed and the Devs once said during a Blizzcon that they had like 50+ ideas for new classes. If Blizzard believes new classes will increase/maintain Wow subs, they'll put more into the game.

I also hope that the number of classes wearing a specific armor type and space on the forums are the last things Blizzard thinks about when deciding whether to implement new classes.

[Talen]

With 1% presence it's ludicrous to claim tech needs to have it's own class or is anything more than a footnote in Azeroth. Keep on dreaming, it wont happen.

Where do you get this 1% presence figure form? Why do you think it important?

Bard in all other games is a support role.

Other games? maybe. In Warcraft? Warcraft isn't big on support classes.

It's really hard to turn it into anything else while retaining it's theme.

Its theme would be music and sound. Not support.

I love the logic - "Theres space for another mail user so that HAS to be the last!!!"

The logic is that Blizzard only has the capability to balance a certain number of classes....and it has already remarked upon the difficulties of balancing eleven classes. It cannot support an infinite number of classes and the indications are that we are at or close to that limit.

We don't know how many classes and specs Blizzard feels it can reasonably support. But eleven is a distinct possibility, 12 is very possible and 13 seems fairly unlikely.

The logic is not that there is just space for one more mail user; the logic is that Blizzard can only support so many classes.

EJL

[fixx]

Where do you get this 1% presence figure form? Why do you think it important?

Read back the thread, that's what the blue arrows are in the quote box.

But just for a quick reminder Teriz made ludicrous claim of technology being a major part in WoW because of hundreds of NPCs and several bosses. That leads into 1% easily when it's among tens of thousands of NPCs and hundreds of bosses making technology quite insignificant in comparison.

It's important because technology has never been major part of active WoW game, but serves only as a backdrop and a reminder of gnomes' past golden age and the incomprehensible alien Titan technology. And when tech is just a footnote in WoW, it doesn't warrant it's own class.

Other games? maybe. In Warcraft? Warcraft isn't big on support classes.

And that's why it wont get into WoW because there are no support classes, like I said.

Its theme would be music and sound. Not support.

Music is too broad and imprecise theme. ANd it wouldn't work because I can't really see a viable way of music doing competitive damage or healing or tanking. That's why it's support class because bards deal with buffs/debuffs in other games and as second rate dps or second rate healers.

We don't know how many classes and specs Blizzard feels it can reasonably support. But eleven is a distinct possibility, 12 is very possible and 13 seems fairly unlikely.

There's no logic at all in claiming 12 classes would be somehow magically "very possible" while 13 "fairly unlikely" just to support the braindead tinkerbell fantasy.


The next paragraph is the most important thing to explain why tinker class isn't happening, and something Teriz has ducked or strawmanned multiple times already since he lacks the answers:

Blizzard devs add classes when it fits the theme of the expansion (that was the exact words from Blizzcon 2013 panel). Therefore the only type of expansion that would facilitate tech based class would be a tech based expansion, and I'm not seeing that would ever happen in a fantasy RPG.

[Talen]

But just for a quick reminder Teriz made ludicrous claim of technology being a major part in WoW because of hundreds of NPCs and several bosses. That leads into 1% easily when it's among tens of thousands of NPCs and hundreds of bosses making technology quite insignificant in comparison.

So...1% if you discount all the NPCs who are also tech based. Gotcha, A totally made up up figure.

It's important because technology has never been major part of active WoW game, but serves only as a backdrop and a reminder of gnomes' past golden age and the incomprehensible alien Titan technology. And when tech is just a footnote in WoW, it doesn't warrant it's own class.

Siegecrafter Blackfuse? The iron Horde? The iron Juggernaught? Various Zeppelins. The Alliance Air forces and navy. The Dwarven tank corps. Numerous bosses and NPCs ranging from Thermaplugg right up to the Kor'kron Gunners?

Blackdrop? Flavor?

So far all you've done is try to dismiss an important part of the gameworld in order to make your own point sound more impressive and valid than it really is. WoW is a hybrid world. It has tech alongside S&S. And if you don't like that, you're in the wrong game.

And that's why it wont get into WoW because there are no support classes, like I said.

Unless they design it so it isn't a support class.

Music is too broad and imprecise theme.

Which is an advantage for designers. They aren't hemmed in as much.

ANd it wouldn't work because I can't really see a viable way of music doing competitive damage or healing or tanking. That's why it's support class because bards deal with buffs/debuffs in other games and as second rate dps or second rate healers.

Easy to see you don't design games. We already have sound and music based attacks and abilities in game. So the concept is there. A Music/Soudn class woudl allow Blizzard to expand upon those themes.

There's no logic at all in claiming 12 classes would be somehow magically "very possible" while 13 "fairly unlikely" just to support the braindead tinkerbell fantasy.

Yeah...right. Thing is...if Blizzard are at the edge right now, then they've just made balancing a bit easier with their pruning. That opens up the room for another class a bit but it still leaves more than 1 new class doubtful. Sound and tech are perhaps the two themes that don't fit in with existing classes. so there also isn't any need for more than 13.

Blizzard devs add classes when it fits the theme of the expansion (that was the exact words from Blizzcon 2013 panel). Therefore the only type of expansion that would facilitate tech based class would be a tech based expansion, and I'm not seeing that would ever happen in a fantasy RPG.

I'm simply going to assume your argument is correct and not ask for context or anything similar. I'll simply point out that WoW is a world filled with tech. Getting a tech class into the game isn't going to be difficult. Whether it would be due to the tech based Iron Horde in WOD, or the Titan Tech of MoP and LK, the Goblin and Worgen tech of Cata, the legion tech of TBC or the Gnome tech of Vanilla...there is always a tech theme somewhere that Blizzard can latch onto.

EJL

[fixx]

So...1% if you discount all the NPCs who are also tech based. Gotcha, A totally made up up figure.

Siegecrafter Blackfuse? The iron Horde? The iron Juggernaught? Various Zeppelins. The Alliance Air forces and navy. The Dwarven tank corps. Numerous bosses and NPCs ranging from Thermaplugg right up to the Kor'kron Gunners?

So far all you've done is try to dismiss an important part of the gameworld in order to make your own point sound more impressive and valid than it really is. WoW is a hybrid world. It has tech alongside S&S. And if you don't like that, you're in the wrong game.

I'll simply point out that WoW is a world filled with tech.

It's exactly that 1% I tried to get through to you. The number of tech based bosses or NPCs can be pretty easily counted out because it's so damn small compared to the number of bosses and NPCs that fall under the generic fantasy stuff.

Technology is important to Titans (not playable), Iron Horde (not playable), gnomes (engineering profession) and goblins (engineering profession). It really has got all the representation in game mechanics already that the lore warrants, no matter how much you try to disbelieve.

Unless they design it so it isn't a support class.

Once more for the sixth time. The classical bard present in all previous RPGs is a support class. If Blizzard or somebody else designs it not to be, then it's no longer a bard and will be probably called something else having totally different skillset.

Which is an advantage for designers. They aren't hemmed in as much.

Even game designers are limited by such small things like reality. The reality is that one word theme is too broad and too imprecise to distinct one class from another, and no amount of strawmanning will change that.

Easy to see you don't design games. We already have sound and music based attacks and abilities in game. So the concept is there. A Music/Soudn class woudl allow Blizzard to expand upon those themes.

Having a number of music/sound abilities in the game that can be counted with fingers of normal human and are all currently just simple aoe damage or aoe stuns does not mean it can be expanded further than that. I admit I've only co-designed few board/cardgames with nothing published yet, but I lack the imagination to come up with a dps rotation based on purely sound based attacks. Can you help me and list let's say five attacks based on music/bards alone that are designed to hit single target? It's lot harder than you imagine when you have a specific task like that at hand.

Yeah...right. Thing is...if Blizzard are at the edge right now,

That's a pretty big if based on nothing.

I'm simply going to assume your argument is correct and not ask for context or anything similar.

Same answer also explained how death knights fitted into the theme of Arthas and Lich king, and Monks with Pandaren. Cataclysm was an expansion about elements and because of that everybody said it's shaman expansion. It was also the expansion where dps shamans were at the bottom of the barrel in every single tier.

[Mdev]

This is a business... there's no "last" anything.

[Ielenia]

This is a business... there's no "last" anything.

There will be a 'last', once Blizzard is done with WoW and starts to focus on a new franchise. But that 'last' is still a long ways to come.

[blackblade]

On the contrary, that is the best reason not to release any more classes until the spread is more even. What would be the incentive to spend x amount of resources (let's pretend 1/5 the cost of whole expansion) to make a new class with all changes that go with it if the adoption rate is already very low for monks?

Was a double negative, sorry. Wouldn't + aren't. "I would not be suprised if they are not scrambling to make a new class" should be "I'd be surprised if they are making a new class."

[Talen]

It's exactly that 1% I tried to get through to you. The number of tech based bosses or NPCs can be pretty easily counted out because

...the total number there is is more than 1% of the total and so shows you just plucked a figure out of thin air in order to make your point sound more impresisve than it really is.

The Dwarves, Goblins, Gnomes, Draenei and Worgen are all tech using races. That isn't just one race....that's FIVE out of Eleven.
ONE out of two factions has a very heavy tech bias.
The Iron Hordes power comes from its technology.

it's so damn small compared to the number of bosses and NPCs that fall under the generic fantasy stuff.

40-50% is not "small". Or - to put it another way - how many Monk bosses did we face before MoP?

Once more for the sixth time. The classical bard present in all previous RPGs is a support class. If Blizzard or somebody else designs it not to be, then it's no longer a bard and will be probably called something else having totally different skillset.

Why can't Blizzard put its own spin on a class design? Other games might design the Bard as a support class, but that doesn't bind Blizzard to do the same.

Even game designers are limited by such small things like reality. The reality is that one word theme is too broad and too imprecise to distinct one class from another, and no amount of strawmanning will change that.

No amount of strawmanning needs to. Even if you are correct...and you aren't...all Blizzard need do is focus on one aspect of the theme. The healing spec gets to use musical instruments and play songs for support and healing; the DPS spec gets to use screams, shouts and other sonic effects (check out Kung Fu Hustle, or the Dragon Shouts of Skyrim) to cause damage. As for your point about being unable to think of enough sound based attacks...we simply need to see what Blizzard has already done ingame with the Klaxxi and others to show that they can do it, and if a sound class allows them to expand upon the available mechanics , animations, etc...I don't see a problem.

That's a pretty big if based on nothing.

It's based on Blizzards own comments about the work and effort they need to put into the game to balance the existing classes. Which is a lot

EJL

[jhneoh]

I could see blizz implementing a Engineer/Tinker class, but it would be such a bland choice.

Mail, ranged weapon, bombs/mines/turrets.
Ranged DPS / Turrets focused / Heals for the 3 specs

Think Roland from Borderlands 1.

[Deleted]

Robot - A mechanical "hero" class (like Death Knight hero class, it also alters your racial appearance, giving you a metallic sheen).

You can transform into different forms and use plate armour as your armor plating and a gun (transforming its Agility to Strength) as a source of your damage.

Tank form, which is a tank role tank. Utilize a Shield (which servers as your tank's front armour) and a gun to protect your allies from harm.

Turret form - a ranged dps turret with heavy focus on stationary damage burst, recharging while moving around, with a possibility of weaker sustained, but mobile, dps while in need of the mobility.

Robot form, a basic your-race-shaped robot melee fighter, utilizing their mechanically-enhanced strength to deal heavy melee range damage, using their jackhammer-like metal fists with their gun as a power source/engine (piston).

There's still a load of ideas...

[Ielenia]

40-50% is not "small". Or - to put it another way - how many Monk bosses did we face before MoP?

Where did you get the notion that almost half the bosses and NPCs in WoW are tech characters?

- - - Updated - - -

Robot - A mechanical "hero" class (like Death Knight hero class, it also alters your racial appearance, giving you a metallic sheen).

The Curse of Flesh is something that exists, and the Azerothian races do not know how to do or undo it. A 'robot' race and/or class cannot exist.

[fixx]

The Dwarves, Goblins, Gnomes, Draenei and Worgen are all tech using races. That isn't just one race....that's FIVE out of Eleven.

Sorry but no... A dwarf priest or goblin warlock or gnome mage or draenei shaman or worgen druid (just throwing examples) has got absolutely nothing to do with technology unless they happen to pick up engineering profession.

What you are trying to claim is that because some of the 7 billion humans on earth play Counterstrike everybody you can ever meet has played Counterstrike. Being born in a society that does x does not imply that the character must be also using x, that is a classical logic fallacy straight from Teriz' school.

ONE out of two factions has a very heavy tech bias.
The Iron Hordes power comes from its technology.

Iron Horde has got nothing to do with Horde, they're the enemies of both factions in WoD. Don't get fooled by the name, or alternatively don't start grasping at straws and pull some stupidest nitpicks of the year here. So yeah, which playable faction again has technology bias?

40-50% is not "small". Or - to put it another way - how many Monk bosses did we face before MoP?

It's still 1% when all the intentional logic fails are cleaned off the table.

Why can't Blizzard put its own spin on a class design? Other games might design the Bard as a support class, but that doesn't bind Blizzard to do the same.

They can, but as I have said already three times it wouldn't be the bard class that exists in all other RPGs because all of those previous ones were support classes.

It's based on Blizzards own comments about the work and effort they need to put into the game to balance the existing classes.

And yet they have nowhere said or used the words "too much".