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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    DW frost tends to almost forget about unholy runes. Due to heavy mastery stacking, and low weapon damage for Obliterate, Obliterate does less damage then FS+Unholy Rune Usage. Thus, RC, which equally returns 1/3rd of a rune is worse then RE, which fully returns a depleted rune (Which will either be a death or frost rune if played right), and RC, which fully returns a depleted rune as a death rune (Which can be more reliable then RE, but will return less overall runes then RE). For 2h frost, its significantly better because Obliterate has a much higher DPR then Howling Blast+Unholy Rune, thus making the rotation full of Obliterates.

    So, anyway, due to Unholy Runes having signficantly less damage value then frost/death runes for DW frost, RC falls behind as it restores 1/3 of all 3 runes, whereas RE restores 1 complete rune, which will be a favorable rune for DW frost.
    Thanks for the detailed reply. I understand now how the random math of RC can work in favor of a spec that actually uses Unholy Runes to its advantage.

    Semi-related question: Is it even feasible to play DW prioritizing Crit and using Obliterate as if you were playing the 2H spec? I get that Threat of Thassarian makes DW inherently lean more towards Mastery with the buff to Frost Strike it gives, but does that mean the physical damage it can do is meaningless in comparison to 2H/Might of the Frozen Wastes?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    Thanks for the detailed reply. I understand now how the random math of RC can work in favor of a spec that actually uses Unholy Runes to its advantage.

    Semi-related question: Is it even feasible to play DW prioritizing Crit and using Obliterate as if you were playing the 2H spec? I get that Threat of Thassarian makes DW inherently lean more towards Mastery with the buff to Frost Strike it gives, but does that mean the physical damage it can do is meaningless in comparison to 2H/Might of the Frozen Wastes?
    to answer your question, pretty much. Obliterate crits for me with two heroic weapons have never seen past 300k(if even that high) where as my frost strikes dependent on buffs have gone as high as 600k. This is also numbers that I have seen myself on the screen, not going through my logs to see if either has been higher/lower.

  3. #23
    BT is without a doubt the way to go if you want that micromanagement. If you want to be lazy use RC/RE.

  4. #24
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Doesn't use the GCD.


    e: I should refresh pages before I post eh...



    Just, no. Stay with RC if you're gonna do that. You lose the only benefit (on demand runes) if you macro.
    Except you don't. BT does somethings that neither RC nor RE do, even macroed. 1.) It provides a death rune instead of an unholy and 2.) It's consistent.

    Perfect play unmacroed BT is a DPS gain over macroed BT. But it's been shown time and time again than even macroed BT is a DPS gain over the other two.

  5. #25
    I still use RC in frost but only because I'm not entirely trying to min/max, still performs acceptable.

  6. #26
    Yep. I don't even bother responding to those people half the time.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Except you don't. BT does somethings that neither RC nor RE do, even macroed. 1.) It provides a death rune instead of an unholy and 2.) It's consistent.

    Perfect play unmacroed BT is a DPS gain over macroed BT. But it's been shown time and time again than even macroed BT is a DPS gain over the other two.
    Macro'd BT is about as easy to manage as the other two as well. Just keep track of your blood charges for heavy aoe times so you can get the most howling blasts as possible. for dw frost, I personally see no reason to not use BT whether macro'd or not.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skygoneblue View Post
    Thanks for the detailed reply. I understand now how the random math of RC can work in favor of a spec that actually uses Unholy Runes to its advantage.

    Semi-related question: Is it even feasible to play DW prioritizing Crit and using Obliterate as if you were playing the 2H spec? I get that Threat of Thassarian makes DW inherently lean more towards Mastery with the buff to Frost Strike it gives, but does that mean the physical damage it can do is meaningless in comparison to 2H/Might of the Frozen Wastes?
    The damage is meaningless compared to 2H frost.

    First, consider that the average 1 hand weapon deals about 50% of the weapon damage of a 2 handed weapon. Also consider that the off-hand weapon deals about 50% LESS damage compared to having it in the main hand.

    This means that a dual-wielding obliterate deals 25% LESS damage then a 2 handed Obliterate. Finally, consider that the damage of a 2 handed obliterate is buffed 40%, and that means that a dual-wielding obliterate will hit for only half the damage of a 2 handed obliterate.

    On the other hand, frost strike's damage is buffed 50%, thus a DW frost strike's damage does 25% MORE damage than a 2 handed frost strike. So, to take advantage of that, you WANT to stack mastery for increased frost strike damage, and the higher mastery makes the DPR of howling blast+Unholy Rune a bit more then the DPR of obliterate.

    As for stacking crit, you do NOT want to do that, because of Killing Machine. Killing Machine grants auto-attacks a chance to make obliterate/frost strikes a guaranteed crit. Anytime you get guaranteed crit from anything, the value of crit is generally reduced, which is what we see with elemental shamans due to lava burst. (If lava burst wasn't a guaranteed crit, crit would be elementals strongest stat by a landslide)
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  9. #29
    Regarding crit, that's what I assumed as well. But even Icy Veins is recommending crit over mastery for 2H. My guess was that stacking haste has negative side effects or a diminished value, and that 2H's focus on physical damage makes mastery a relatively poor stat.

  10. #30
    Haste's value does diminish as you get GCD-locked, and all DKs are GCD locked these days. However, if you don't use Plague Leech and (in particular) aggressively AMS-soak, haste is probably still your best secondary stat. Best bet is to import your character into simcraft and plot your own stat weights.

  11. #31
    Now during the fight the instant refreshed frost runes are far better than waiting till they regenerate via Corruption.
    This is basically why i stay away from RE.

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