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  1. #1

    Post Dear Pro-Flying Players: A Question

    Dear Pro-Flying Players,

    I have seen you make numerous arguments about why flying is an integral, enjoyable part of World of Warcraft, that in no way negatively affects the game. Your support of flying has been unwavering, budged by neither Blizzard's arguments nor those of your fellow players. You are adamant in your stance, and clearly believe it very much.

    So, my question to you is this: If flying is so much fun, and has no negative impact on the gameplay, why do no other MMOs use it?

    Is it time constraints? Lack of resources? Are we to believe that big budget MMOs like ESO and SW:toR simply couldn't figure it out? What could possibly be their reasoning for not including a feature that, according to many of you, is so essential to World of Warcraft?

    Help me understand.
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  2. #2
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    I Wonder at times too, unsure really.

    I do enjoy the no flying, as we get to see the World Again from the ground. It is after all only for Draenor, not Outland (old Draenor) or Azeroth. I mean, we lived through Pandaria to level 90 without flying, now we get Pandaria flying earlier when WoD comes, and then no flying in Draenor.

    Though, given the option for flying is a good thing too, specially in old content where you have already stepped many times before.
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  3. #3
    Honestly OP, I was trying to post an answer to your question from their stand point, and I can't even think of one. You're absolutely right, and I agree. What the hell is the benefit of flying mounts anyway? Fast transportation..? I just don't understand. What is the benefit? Back in BC, it was never even asked as a feature. It was given to us as a "oh wow, that's cool!" kind of thing.

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Dear Pro-Flying Players,

    I have seen you make numerous arguments about why flying is an integral, enjoyable part of World of Warcraft, that in no way negatively affects the game. Your support of flying has been unwavering, budged by neither Blizzard's arguments nor those of your fellow players. You are adamant in your stance, and clearly believe it very much.

    So, my question to you is this: If flying is so much fun, and has no negative impact on the gameplay, why do no other MMOs use it?

    Is it time constraints? Lack of resources? Are we to believe that big budget MMOs like ESO and SW:toR simply couldn't figure it out? What could possibly be their reasoning for not including a feature that, according to many of you, is so essential to World of Warcraft?

    Help me understand.
    Dare I ask why you lower-cased SW:toR? You do realize that 'o' is "Old", not "of", right? And since you put a colon in there, the "The" should be capitalized? God, that looks so freaking retarded to me. I will never understand why people feel the need to do that sort of thing.

    Some games just flat couldn't support it. Imagine flying in GW2, TESO. It just wouldn't work. Most MMOs have been created with the idea that you'll be running everywhere, indeed, WoW was originally created for that. I actually think flying was a mistake in WoW, though pulling it for WoD seems too little, too late. If you're going through with it, you may as well go all the way. We still can't fly in the Draenei or Blood Elf areas. I actually couldn't see them doing it in Rift, either. The world's just not made for it. Too many trees and such lol.

    Not only that, but lore-wise, I'd imagine it wouldn't fit into a lot of games. In TESO, minus the terrible DLC for Skyrim that let you fly/glitch on dragons, you've never been able to fly in an Elder Scrolls game, so there's no sense in adding it to TESO. I could actually see it working in, say, TOR, since the technology, lore-wise, is already there. It just seems like Bioware doesn't want to add it.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Dear Pro-Flying Players,

    I have seen you make numerous arguments about why flying is an integral, enjoyable part of World of Warcraft, that in no way negatively affects the game. Your support of flying has been unwavering, budged by neither Blizzard's arguments nor those of your fellow players. You are adamant in your stance, and clearly believe it very much.

    So, my question to you is this: If flying is so much fun, and has no negative impact on the gameplay, why do no other MMOs use it?

    Is it time constraints? Lack of resources? Are we to believe that big budget MMOs like ESO and SW:toR simply couldn't figure it out? What could possibly be their reasoning for not including a feature that, according to many of you, is so essential to World of Warcraft?

    Help me understand.
    Flying is a feature every game wants to implement eventually, if it hasn't already. But in the case of other MMOs without flying, they're probably just waiting to play that card. Its a big selling point for an expansion, and Blizzard played it very early.

    Flying has both negative and positive effects on the game. Everyone can agree on that. As for me, personally? I don't care. Every single one of my friends quit in MoP, so I have no connection to that game anymore.

    Now I just browse MMO-Champ out of boredom and curiosity. Will I play WoD? Meh.

  6. #6
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Because several others do.

    Just Google "Mmos with flying".

    I would assume most don't because tracking deliberate movement in 3 dimensions requires more processing power.

    Also consider the fact that extending content to fill 3 dimensions instead of 2 increases the size of the world exponentially.

    So in the end it's cheaper and easier to have 2 dimensional game play than to offer a genuine 3d experience.

    Hope that helped.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    Dare I ask why you lower-cased SW:toR? You do realize that 'o' is "Old", not "of", right? And since you put a colon in there, the "The" should be capitalized? God, that looks so freaking retarded to me. I will never understand why people feel the need to do that sort of thing.
    I can't speak for others, but it's a force of habit for me, from KotOR. I realize it's a 'to' and not a 'ot', but I never claimed to be a clever man.

    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    Some games just flat couldn't support it. Imagine flying in GW2, TESO. It just wouldn't work. Most MMOs have been created with the idea that you'll be running everywhere, indeed, WoW was originally created for that. I actually think flying was a mistake in WoW, though pulling it for WoD seems too little, too late. If you're going through with it, you may as well go all the way. We still can't fly in the Draenei or Blood Elf areas. I actually couldn't see them doing it in Rift, either. The world's just not made for it. Too many trees and such lol.
    Why wouldn't it work in GW2 or ESO? I mean, the games have been designed with ground content in mind, but - as you yourself said - so was WoW.

    If anything, wouldn't they have an advantage in being able to plan for such a beneficial feature from the beginning?
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  8. #8
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    A lot of MMO's allow you to teleport to places that you have previously visited, which sort of eliminates the need for flying (and also prevents people from flying to places they have not explored on foot). This obviously creates it's own problems, as I got rewarded quite handsomely in GW1 to 'run people' to the next town.

    WoW on the other hand only has a limited number of teleports/portals, and most are reserved for Mages.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vawugz View Post
    The snide-ness in your comment aside, it has to do with time and budget restraints. When they added old world flying to Azeroth they had to redesign numerous areas. It's far easier to make a zone look pretty when you can hold your player's hand through and show them only what you want to see. Stormwind didn't have fully 3D buildings when it was originally made, it was akin to cardboard cutouts for a school play. The recent slew of MMOs coming out already launch with far less content than WoW has and will have your run of the mill website, game, and support errors so flying isn't really a feasible option, even if they wanted to.
    But surely if it was such an integral feature - one important enough that people will play or not play over it - MMOs would work harder to implement it? I mean, I could understand smaller ones not having the budget, but we've seen some very high profile MMOs that simply haven't bothered.

    And snide? Me? Never.
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  10. #10
    You listed 2 of the main reasons, time and ressources.

    Most games are designed with a player perspective in mind, that is to say, most of the landscape/buildings/etc. are only visible from a certain angle, the rest (like what lies behind those mountains) is a blank shell.

    WoW was designed from the get-go without instance gating in mind, you can walk from one end of the continent to the other without any loading screens or texture/model pop-ins. Vanilla wasn't, but since BC every single piece of land was modeled and textured, save the expansion content which had a limited time and resource allocation, and as such was almost always landlocked.

    Other MMOs just don't bother, instead focusing on more or less linear paths, walled off by one thing or another, and everything behind those walls doesn't exist.

    In short, Blizzard is getting lazy in their old age, and prefer to now make content faster but more mundane, more limited in the 3rd dimensional axis of movement.

    One might say they're going back to the roots of game design, which is to say they want to make props for a scene, as opposed to a whole living world.

    Instead of designing content with flying in mind, working with the freedom of movement so incredibly well implemented in the game, they'd rather just do what every other generic mmo does. Fuck them very much for that.

  11. #11
    I'll admit for me it is convenience. I do not like to run everywhere, I do not like to spend so much time travelling from place to place. If wow had a waypoint system rather that flight points I do not think it would bother me so much. Tech is already there and established in lore for that, so why are we still riding bats and windriders from town to town? I love questing on the ground, but absolutely loathe getting place to place that way.

    And a rebuttal; Why would it be detrimental to keep Flying in current content at max level when those who don't want to can simply choose not to?

  12. #12
    On the closed alpha forums of Everquest:Next there is one very hot topic: 'Please do not add flying or fast transportation to the game'.

    There's probably hundreds of people in that thread pleading the devs to not add flying or teleporting to the game (and ofcourse a few disagreeing). The main argument seems to be that flying and teleportation ruins the immersion and liveliness of the world. The it takes away the possibility, adventure and opportunity of traveling. Admittedly Everquest:Next will be a sandbox MMO in which the world might constantly evolve and in which NPC armies might try to conquer new land or setup random raiding parties, so in such a game immersion is a lot more important. There would be no sense of territory in a game like that if everyone could just teleport all around the world and show up wherever they wanted.

    But it seems that overall MMO designers and customers have a pretty negative feeling about flying. Flying feels very much like an arcade-like feature that is counter to the idea that MMOs should be an immersive experience and have a sense of territory and travel.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ærion View Post
    You listed 2 of the main reasons, time and ressources.

    Most games are designed with a player perspective in mind, that is to say, most of the landscape/buildings/etc. are only visible from a certain angle, the rest (like what lies behind those mountains) is a blank shell.

    WoW was designed from the get-go without instance gating in mind, you can walk from one end of the continent to the other without any loading screens or texture/model pop-ins. Vanilla wasn't, but since BC every single piece of land was modeled and textured, save the expansion content which had a limited time and resource allocation, and as such was almost always landlocked.

    Other MMOs just don't bother, instead focusing on more or less linear paths, walled off by one thing or another, and everything behind those walls doesn't exist.

    In short, Blizzard is getting lazy in their old age, and prefer to now make content faster but more mundane, more limited in the 3rd dimensional axis of movement.

    One might say they're going back to the roots of game design, which is to say they want to make props for a scene, as opposed to a whole living world. Fuck them very much for that.
    Again, if it was so important, wouldn't it be worth the effort?

    And seeing as Blizzard will, one way or another, eventually implement flying, doesn't that mean they have to build the world in 3D, anyway?
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  14. #14
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Also I love how the OP has ignored the fact that I pointed out that there are other MMOS with flying and all you have to do is Google it.

    Don't be intellectually dishonest and pretend to be open for discussion when you clearly aren't.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinansho View Post
    And a rebuttal; Why would it be detrimental to keep Flying in current content at max level when those who don't want to can simply choose not to?
    Well, as long as flying is an option, developers can't have open world content that is relevant at max level. What's the point of putting chests or rare mobs in hard to access places if players can simply fly to them? What's the point of hidden paths and locations that reward exploration if they can simply be spotted from the sky?

    That is the price of convenience - it's simply a price many are willing to pay. Except developers, it seems.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by vawugz View Post
    The snide-ness in your comment aside, it has to do with time and budget restraints. When they added old world flying to Azeroth they had to redesign numerous areas. It's far easier to make a zone look pretty when you can hold your player's hand through and show them only what you want to see. Stormwind didn't have fully 3D buildings when it was originally made, it was akin to cardboard cutouts for a school play. The recent slew of MMOs coming out already launch with far less content than WoW has and will have your run of the mill website, game, and support errors so flying isn't really a feasible option, even if they wanted to.
    Well, yes, but what about an MMO where flying was built in from the beginning? On top of that, most MMOs now don't make the shortcuts that WoW used when it first launched. I've done my fair share of wall walking and clipping in games like Rift, and even the areas where people never go to look detailed out. Unlike in WoW, where even still, the areas between zones are just huge expanses of copied tiles, no detail, no flora or fauna, nothing.

    In some games, it just wouldn't make sense. It may or may not add some fun to the game, but like Blizzard argued for WoD, it just trivializes so much content. Get a quest, fly up and over to the quest objective, complete it, and fly back. You didn't have to navigate at all, you didn't have to fight any NPCs. Where's the fun in that? In a game like Rift, where there are mobs sticking out of places mobs should not be, and is something people have complained about since launch, I could really see flying mounts sort of ruin the feel of the game. Imagine being able to complete a rift, mount up, and fly over to another one, over and over again, instead of having to run through all those mobs. Again, I could see it work in TOR, the maps aren't as trivialized by flying as in other games.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    Also I love how the OP has ignored the fact that I pointed out that there are other MMOS with flying and all you have to do is Google it.

    Don't be intellectually dishonest and pretend to be open for discussion when you clearly aren't.
    The top result for a Google of 'MMOs with flying' is an article from 2009, listing several dead MMOs.

    So. Ya' know.

    The most recent one I could find was a thread where players were asking about MMOs with flying, and the only response I could find was World of Warcraft.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Again, if it was so important, wouldn't it be worth the effort?

    And seeing as Blizzard will, one way or another, eventually implement flying, doesn't that mean they have to build the world in 3D, anyway?
    No, for them it's not.

    Right now, they're under some pressure. They face another year-long tier without any new content, and are now gambling.

    They hope that they can fill in terrain and structure after release, and are hoping that - against all evidence to the contrary - people will somehow get used to being landlocked in the new expansion, so that they (Blizz) don't have to even bother. They're gambling with the players, and if they win, they'll get some breathing room as far as world design goes. This would theoretically translate to faster content release, but I'll never believe that will happen.

    As for building the world in 3D? sure, so it doesn't look ugly from on high, but they'll probably never design gameplay around the freedom of movement.

    And to pre-empt the "but taxis fly so they have to make all terrain" people, try to think back to vanilla taxi systems, remember how close to the ground they flew? remember the exact same viewing angle they showed you every time, which you could achieve on foot or the allotted hills you could climb?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    Dear Pro-Flying Players,

    I have seen you make numerous arguments about why flying is an integral, enjoyable part of World of Warcraft, that in no way negatively affects the game. Your support of flying has been unwavering, budged by neither Blizzard's arguments nor those of your fellow players. You are adamant in your stance, and clearly believe it very much.

    So, my question to you is this: If flying is so much fun, and has no negative impact on the gameplay, why do no other MMOs use it?

    Is it time constraints? Lack of resources? Are we to believe that big budget MMOs like ESO and SW:toR simply couldn't figure it out? What could possibly be their reasoning for not including a feature that, according to many of you, is so essential to World of Warcraft?

    Help me understand.
    ESO: doesn't really fit the game unless the add in dragons later. far as i'm aware no real source of flying the lore like in the warcraft RTS games.

    SWTOR: game world is not designed for flying in that its to broken up (this also applies to many many more games)

    Rift: I could see flying in but again lack of any flying mounts in lore and wanting to be different than wow.

    Flying is one of the unique things that wow has and does REALLY well. Its also one of my favorite aspects to the game as i love flying to explore the world and seeing it from above then diving between trees , cliffs etc.... I'l be around in WoD but only b.c. i've been with warcraft since orcs vs humans. I see ZERO reason to not allow flying, questing could be fixed by mobs that can shoot you down. if its a PVP thing disable it on PVP servers only.

  20. #20
    Over 9000! Gheld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    The top result for a Google of 'MMOs with flying' is an article from 2009, listing several dead MMOs.

    So. Ya' know.

    The most recent one I could find was a thread where players were asking about MMOs with flying, and the only response I could find was World of Warcraft.
    Your original premise is still false.
    You also overlook the option of modifying the way flying is implemented.

    Thus this is the same black and white non discussion as a hundred other active threads. Making a new one for you to be king of was completely unnecessary.

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