1. #2061
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    No, the laws are unfair. Its not special if the female would get the same treatment.
    They do get the same treatment now. Women can pay child support. Women can also *not* opt out of supporting their child once it's born (excepting adoption etc, but that requires consent from both parents). What you want is a unilateral one person opting out of their legal responsibilities regarding a child. That is special treatment. Special treatment which shouldn't be ok for either parent tbh (again assuming the child is kept).

  2. #2062
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Women can also *not* opt out of supporting their child once it's born (excepting adoption etc, but that requires consent from both parents).
    Thats the point woman can just not name the father.

    The law would even the playing field. It would be gender neutral just benefiting man more because the heinous act of woman who lie knowingly about it are untracable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  3. #2063
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Legal abortion fine as long as its a fetus lol
    Absolutely hypocracy how can you not see it you know its a fetus first and then becomes a child.
    Because they're legally and ethically not the same thing? Once birth has occurred the fetus becomes a child and a legal individual in their own right.

  4. #2064
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Once birth has occurred the fetus becomes a child and a legal individual in their own right.
    Waving all responsibility away for cell goo is how morally bad? The same arguments it doesnt matter just stop it and it even starts at that point.

    The law would be gender neutral just that it would be highly unfavorable for woman because they can currently get the same effect by a simple lie.

    Equality yes but unfavorable equality for woman dont want that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  5. #2065
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Thats the point woman can just not name the father.

    The law would even the playing field. It would be gender neutral just benefiting man more because the heinous act of woman who lie knowingly about it are untracable.
    Only if the father lets them.

    And no, it's not a question of an even playing field. The playing field is uneven because biology. There's nothing the law can do about that. Writing a law in gender neutral terms than in action benefits men isn't equal.

    That aside the law shouldn't be written to allow *either* parent to just waive their responsibilities. It is not in the best interests of the child to do so, and it is the child that comes first here.

  6. #2066
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    And no, it's not a question of an even playing field. The playing field is uneven because biology.
    Nah its uneven not because of biology but because of armed police forces that enable to enforce responsibility for things that are entirely out of your control.

    Said law would not discriminate based on gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    That aside the law shouldn't be written to allow *either* parent to just waive their responsibilities. It is not in the best interests of the child to do so, and it is the child that comes first here.
    Woman can achieve it simple and have 100% control post conception.

    The current situation is unfavorable for children because it enables woman to behave irresponsible.
    Last edited by Davillage; 2014-01-05 at 11:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  7. #2067
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Well given that a lot of this boils down to 'it's unfair that she gets to decide whether the carry the fetus or not because she has a womb' it seems like many are arguing that a fundamental biological difference needs to be corrected with special treatment.
    Not at all. It's just arguing for rightful, full choice to also incur the burden of full responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Let's face it, the vast majority of posts here from people on the MRA side of the spectrum aren't even looking at the real issue (rights of father vs rights of child), they're all just bitching and moaning about women's choices.
    What? The child's rights have been addressed many times, and bringing it up at this point is just distracting from the main point here. Women's choices also have nothing to do with this. They don't want an equivalent to abortion, they want not to be shackled by a choice someone else makes, because that is what the situation is to them. The opposite, where if a pregnant woman told a man she'd carry his child to term, but wanted nothing to do with it after birth, should also be acceptable. The "abortion equivalent" is a straw-man, and the 'MRA' indictments are irrelevant and unnecessary ad-hominems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flutterguy View Post
    In fact, I quite like it and I would consider it an abuse to inflict my child with a foreskin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    You don't appear to understand how it works...they don't stick it on when the baby is born.

  8. #2068
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    They do get the same treatment now. Women can pay child support. Women can also *not* opt out of supporting their child once it's born (excepting adoption etc, but that requires consent from both parents). What you want is a unilateral one person opting out of their legal responsibilities regarding a child. That is special treatment. Special treatment which shouldn't be ok for either parent tbh (again assuming the child is kept).
    How would it be special treatment, if both parents get the same treatment? 2/2 people get the same choices?
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  9. #2069
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Nah its uneven not because of biology but because of armed police forces that enable to enforce responsibility for things that are entirely out of your control.
    I was referring to the fact that the uneven playing field is a result of one gender having a womb. Last I checked mine isn't full of armed police.

    And again lol @ entirely out of your control. So we're only talking about the tiny minority of cases in which the male was raped then?

  10. #2070
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    And again lol @ entirely out of your control. So we're only talking about the tiny minority of cases in which the male was raped then?
    So don't wear skimpy clothes getting raped is not entirely out of your control either.

    The one with the final say is responsible nearly everywhere. I cant even come up with an example without going to Saudi Arabia.
    Last edited by Davillage; 2014-01-05 at 11:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  11. #2071
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    How would it be special treatment, if both parents get the same treatment? 2/2 people get the same choices?
    It is special treatment because one party would be opting out of their legal responsibilities regarding the child, leaving it to the other party. They *both* have responsibilities now, you're arguing for a change in which men could just opt out of their responsibilities to a child i.e. to be treated differently.

    Anyway, I was on my way to the gym, and this is bogging me down. bbl!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    So don't wear skimpy clothes getting raped is not entirely out of your control either.

    The one with the final say is responsible nearly everywhere. I cant even come up with an example without going to saudi arabia.
    And I've finally found my new sig!

  12. #2072
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Anyway, I was on my way to the gym, and this is bogging me down. bbl!
    Cognitive dissonance is stressfull I understand that. You have to align reality with what you think is right stating the truth is much more easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    And I've finally found my new sig!
    Its still your reflection even if you don't like what you see in the mirror.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  13. #2073
    This "biological inequality" non-sequitur is a fallacy. If anything, it is precisely because of this that the woman should be burdened even more.

    Men don't want to have an advantage they can't enjoy because of their biology as opposed to someone else's. Men don't want to be disadvantaged because of someone else's biology, because that is exactly what the situation currently is. There is a huge difference, and to hop between each one is to constantly change the reality of the situation.
    Last edited by Velaniz; 2014-01-05 at 11:27 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flutterguy View Post
    In fact, I quite like it and I would consider it an abuse to inflict my child with a foreskin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    You don't appear to understand how it works...they don't stick it on when the baby is born.

  14. #2074
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    why not? he helped create life, why should she be the sole decider if its allowed to live or die? They both knew the risk with sex, both are equally responsible. regardless of rather or not its a "life" it will become one. I'm not pro life or pro abortion but in this case this is not equal in anyway shape or form. The woman has 100% control when it took both people.
    He isn't the one pregnant for 9 months, so he also has no say in it because it's her bodily autonomy, not his.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Nah its uneven not because of biology but because of armed police forces that enable to enforce responsibility for things that are entirely out of your control.

    Said law would not discriminate based on gender.


    Woman can achieve it simple and have 100% control post conception.

    The current situation is unfavorable for children because it enables woman to behave irresponsible.
    ...and men don't act irresponsibly ever? Like the guy in the OP? I don't even...
    My 3DS FC is 2208-5599-8664, IGN Kira, Fairy Safari; Spritzee, Togepi, Floette. DO NOT add me atm! My list is full, and I will only add people if they're taking the gym challange we have, until I get a second DS.

  15. #2075
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    He isn't the one pregnant for 9 months, so he also has no say in it because it's her bodily autonomy, not his.
    You have no say in it but are responsible.
    Where do I see this kind of flawed reasoning concerning responsibility, body autonomy and the ability to influence only the start situation of something you don't want... right it was fundamentalist muslims.

    Well you did feel in a rapey mood when you've chosen to dress like a skank.

    "Let's face it, if Pippa were a Turk, some people would feel free to say that a hitchhiking woman deserves to be raped."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippa_Bacca

    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    ...and men don't act irresponsibly ever? Like the guy in the OP? I don't even...
    Thats not the point. Its being responsible just for doing something that might've an outcome that you don't like and said process being entirely out of your control.

    The rapist has the final say he has 100% responsibility.
    He might've misintrepreted the body language? She dressed provocative? The 13 year old boy touched her leg first?
    it doesnt matter he/she is 100% responsible.
    Last edited by Davillage; 2014-01-05 at 11:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  16. #2076
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    It is special treatment because one party would be opting out of their legal responsibilities regarding the child, leaving it to the other party. They *both* have responsibilities now, you're arguing for a change in which men could just opt out of their responsibilities to a child i.e. to be treated differently.

    Anyway, I was on my way to the gym, and this is bogging me down. bbl!

    - - - Updated - - -



    And I've finally found my new sig!
    No, I am arguing that BOTH genders have that option.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    He isn't the one pregnant for 9 months, so he also has no say in it because it's her bodily autonomy, not his.
    Pregnancy isn't mandatory.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  17. #2077
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    You have no say in it but are responsible.
    Where do I see this kind of flawed reasoning concerning responsibility, body autonomy and the ability to influence only the start situation of something you don't want... right it was fundamentalist muslims.

    Well you did feel in a rapey mood when you've chosen to dress like a skank.

    "Let's face it, if Pippa were a Turk, some people would feel free to say that a hitchhiking woman deserves to be raped."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippa_Bacca


    Thats not the point. Its being responsible just for doing something that might've an outcome that you don't like and said process being entirely out of your control.
    No, he's respomsible for the child, along with the woman, not the fetus during pregnancy. Both of them had part in the event that caused the pregnancy, so that is equaly both of their responsibility to also care for it after birth were it's again equally under both parent's right.
    My 3DS FC is 2208-5599-8664, IGN Kira, Fairy Safari; Spritzee, Togepi, Floette. DO NOT add me atm! My list is full, and I will only add people if they're taking the gym challange we have, until I get a second DS.

  18. #2078
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    No, he's respomsible for the child, along with the woman
    He is not he didn't have a say. The only way to get responsibility is to have power over the situation.

    Its her decision alone its her responsibility alone. Can he opt in? Yes he can. Is it the right and sensible thing to do? Yes again but to make it mandatory by law well that is as asinine as blaming rape victims.

    You can call it a necessary evil at best. Its utterly unfair.

    It gets absolutely ridiciulous when you factor in that woman can even opt out with a simple lie even after pregnancy.
    Last edited by Davillage; 2014-01-05 at 11:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regard View Post
    The real reason you don't see news like this in your country is because your country has uneducated and piss poor criminals, and don't commit crimes worthy of news, or your media chooses not to report it.

  19. #2079
    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    Tell me when woman need a men to raise children.
    it is actually the other way round. tell me when women can raise children without a man.
    children of single mothers are the most likely to have or cause problems.

  20. #2080
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    No, I am arguing that BOTH genders have that option.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Pregnancy isn't mandatory.
    Neither is unsafe sex.

    Both genders do not have the right to pregnancy decisions because it is SOLELY affecting the woman, and it's HER bodily autonomy.

    Rights:
    Sex - both. They both have responsibility for what happens or doesn't happen during this event.
    Pregnancy - ONLY the woman is pregnant, her bodily autonomy, she decides, and he has no right to decide over her and her body.
    Child - Both parents decide and share the burden of caring for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    He is not he didn't have a say. The only way to get responsibility is to have power over the situation.

    Its her decision alone its her responsibility alone. Can he opt it yes he can is it the right and sensible thing to do yes again but to make it mandatory well that is as asinine as blaming rape victims.

    You can call it a necessary evil at best. Its utterly unfair.
    No he can't. And morally, and logically, he shouldn't be able to opt out of helping to care for it at least minimally after it's born, against his wish or not. Tough luck, but both him and her had equal say in how the sex that lead to the pregnancy would go down. They weren't protected, he didn't cover his own base, jumped the gun, and takes the consequence. That's how life works, get used to it.
    My 3DS FC is 2208-5599-8664, IGN Kira, Fairy Safari; Spritzee, Togepi, Floette. DO NOT add me atm! My list is full, and I will only add people if they're taking the gym challange we have, until I get a second DS.

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