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  1. #1
    High Overlord Simple057's Avatar
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    Resto gemming crit or mastery

    fizza @ area 52
    im currently gemmed int/mastery I see a lot of other resto shams going crit is that what I should be reforging/gemming into
    Nixs

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple057 View Post
    fizza @ area 52
    im currently gemmed int/mastery I see a lot of other resto shams going crit is that what I should be reforging/gemming into
    a LOOOOT of threads about this on mmo-champ already... depends on your playstyle / raid (10 or 25)

    most peeps will say "7k ish hastebreakpoint > crit" which is pretty good BUT imho
    the "9kish haste breakpoint > crit" is better (specially if you are a troll) and if you got the gear "15k ish haste > crit" is god (for me)

    i raid 10 men with the 15k haste breakpoint and around 36% crit raidbuffed (41% with trinket procc) and its AWESOME.... specially on fights like thok heroic... b4 i got the gear i went for the 9k ish haste breakpoint and somthing around 35 - 42% crit... get the mastery as low as you can

  3. #3
    Just a short recap on the mastery debate:

    Mastery is mathematically inferior to other stats, by a significant margin. It is occasionally argued that mastery is superior, because it kicks in as the strongest stat when the hp situation is the most dire. Unfortunately, the current raid environment does not encourage triage healing, and the hp situation is typically somewhat binary; either a player's hp will be too high for mastery to be effective, or the player will be dead before our mastery-empowered-super-heal can land.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire
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    Funnily, i would treat mastery better if our Riptide didnt have a cooldown, thus having a proper on demand instant heal without the need of a glyph. I mean, it heals for like 60k instant, which aint good but with mastery against low hp it would be more like 80k+ noncrit.

    That would give SOME reason to even have mastery in current content, to be able to really save someone with the mastery.
    Last edited by Mortalmansikka; 2014-01-06 at 03:44 PM.

  5. #5
    When people go from 100% to 0% HP nothing will help since they failed a deadly mechanic. But if they go down to 10% HP there is no better stat to have than mastery.

    Also mastery benefits totems -- even if we are too slow to react, our healing stream totem can save them.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire
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    Yea but its unreliable as its up only 50% of the time.

  7. #7
    Crit is higher throughput, period, and provides some pretty significant free mana regen. Crit also benefits low HP targets and smart healing because any crit healing has less of a likelyhood to be wasted. Crit also smart heals the lowest HP target as a side effect. Your mastery % is high by default, I get haste to ~9k (it's actually ~9650 because I can't get it to go any lower without reforging into mastery or spirit), and stack crit forever. Any mastery on my gear is reforged out of at a high priority.

    EDIT: This is my gearing strategy on your character, adjusted slightly because you're a goblin: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/6...1-46c4e4279dcc
    Last edited by delk; 2014-01-07 at 06:41 PM.

  8. #8
    am I the only one gemming INT in reds?

  9. #9
    I'm using the following equations to estimate the relative value of a 160 INT gem vs 320 CRIT/HASTE/MASTERY gem:

    Relative value of crit = 0.53/(1+C/100)
    Relative value of haste = 0.75/(1+H/100)
    Relative value of mastery = 1.6/(1+M/100) * (1 - target HP / max HP)
    Relative value of int =~ 100 * 160/SP

    Where C is our current crit, H our current haste, M our current mastery, and SP our current spellpower.

    The additional benefit of an intellect gem decreases the more intellect we have. For example:

    With 50000 spellpower, INT gem will increase our heals by approximately 0.32%.
    If in addition we have 20% crit, a crit gem will increase the heals, on average, by 0.44%.
    If we have 30% haste, a haste gem will increase the heals on average by 0.57%.
    If we have 50% mastery and heal someone with 25% HP, a mastery gem will increase the heals by 0.96%.

    So just looking at the raw numbers, at 50000 spellpower INT is much weaker than it was at the start of the expansion, making the case for hybrid gems.
    However INT does have the advantage that it's consistent. It isn't affected by RNG like crit, and doesn't depend on the target HP like mastery.

  10. #10
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    I'm using the following equations to estimate the relative value of a 160 INT gem vs 320 CRIT/HASTE/MASTERY gem:

    Relative value of crit = 0.53/(1+C/100)
    Relative value of haste = 0.75/(1+H/100)
    Relative value of mastery = 1.6/(1+M/100) * (1 - target HP / max HP)
    Relative value of int =~ 100 * 160/SP

    Where C is our current crit, H our current haste, M our current mastery, and SP our current spellpower.

    The additional benefit of an intellect gem decreases the more intellect we have. For example:

    With 50000 spellpower, INT gem will increase our heals by approximately 0.32%.
    If in addition we have 20% crit, a crit gem will increase the heals, on average, by 0.44%.
    If we have 30% haste, a haste gem will increase the heals on average by 0.57%.
    If we have 50% mastery and heal someone with 25% HP, a mastery gem will increase the heals by 0.96%.

    So just looking at the raw numbers, at 50000 spellpower INT is much weaker than it was at the start of the expansion, making the case for hybrid gems.
    However INT does have the advantage that it's consistent. It isn't affected by RNG like crit, and doesn't depend on the target HP like mastery.
    I am assuming you would take raid buffs into account for this - unbuffed I have 40k SP and 21% crit (and 25k Int) so with MOTW / Crit buff / Spell Power Buff / I would be somewhere along the lines of 45k Spellpower and just say 27% crit

    Crit = 0.41
    Int = 0.36

    I currently have INT in all red sockets so should change these to 80 int 160 crit (for socket bonus etc)

    Do i also assume that the ratings you have given INT take into account the 5% MOTW buff you would get and also the Spell Power bonus you would get from mage etc?

    Hope that all makes sense - just in case - I am Bomshamone @ doomhammer EU on case you need any other stats.

    I also have better non tier pieces than I have on at the moment and reading the other thread it is saying I should put these on if higher ilvl / better stats as the 4 piece does not do much healing / especially over the duration of a fight. (currently stuck on garrosh normal but not really failing to lack of healing)

    Thanks

  11. #11
    You're right, I didn't take raid buffs into account there, and this is further complicated since the "spellpower" on the armory page already includes the 10% spellpower from our own "Burning Wrath" buff.

    I think the following equations should take into account raid buffs correctly:

    Relative value of crit = 0.53/(1+C/100)*1.05 = 0.5565/(1+C/100)
    Relative value of haste = 0.75/(1+H/100)*1.05 = 0.7875/(1+H/100)
    Relative value of mastery = 1.6/(1+M/100) * (1 - target HP / max HP)
    Relative value of int =~ 100 * 160/SP * 1.1 * 1.05 = 100 * 184.8/SP

    Where C,H,M,SP are raid buffed, and where in "SP" we need to use "Spell Healing" instead of "Spell Power" due to the buff from EarthLiving Weapon.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    Relative value of haste = 0.75/(1+H/100)*1.05 = 0.7875/(1+H/100)
    i don't think this is accurate. you would need to remove the % of shaman healing that is unaffected by haste, assuming you didn't cross a breakpoint. so multiply the result by (total % of healing done by GHW + HW + CH + HS) + some benefit from GCD reduction.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    i don't think this is accurate. you would need to remove the % of shaman healing that is unaffected by haste, assuming you didn't cross a breakpoint. so multiply the result by (total % of healing done by GHW + HW + CH + HS) + some benefit from GCD reduction.
    True for haste it's not accurate unless conductivity is used due to the breakpoints, so it mostly matters which breakpoint we reach.
    But if conductivity is used, the HR breakpoints are irrelevant, and then haste benefits healing rain linearly.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    True for haste it's not accurate unless conductivity is used due to the breakpoints, so it mostly matters which breakpoint we reach.
    But if conductivity is used, the HR breakpoints are irrelevant, and then haste benefits healing rain linearly.
    even with conductivity, the point holds for HST & HTT which are significant portions of shaman healing. so haste is still significantly reduced in value outside of breakpoints no matter the talents.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    When people go from 100% to 0% HP nothing will help since they failed a deadly mechanic. But if they go down to 10% HP there is no better stat to have than mastery.

    Also mastery benefits totems -- even if we are too slow to react, our healing stream totem can save them.
    You are gemming and reforging for what would only constitute a possibility in a fight or a minute amount and for the rest of the time, you are either trying to get mana back, making the other healer do double duty or your mastery is of little to no use.

    I don't know of any raid leader that would allow people to remain at around 10% for any length of time. Yep, you are great for those few moments in a fight where everyone takes a lot of damage. So to the value of about what per boss? Anywhere between 5 to 10 heals or so where your mastery will matter? And if you have a disc priest, pally or R druid in the raid and you go mastery, frankly.. your mastery becomes wasted.

    Meanwhile crit and haste not only allows you to get mana back allowing you to keep healing, increasing your crit chance, pump more heals out, the haste affects your healing rain and how many ticks your totem heal for.. I would rather get the extra tick. As it is atm, I have not been playing as much and I am so near the next breakpoint and I am trying to decide if I want to drop some spirit or crit to go for it.. But trying to find the time to do all of this.. Ugh..

    I know you are a fan of it and I know you enjoy healing with a mastery build, and we all play this game for fun, but I have to say, your huge mastery build does my head in. Makes me wish I could kidnap your toon and regem and reforge it and give it back in the hope you would not notice. lol..



  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    When people go from 100% to 0% HP nothing will help since they failed a deadly mechanic. But if they go down to 10% HP there is no better stat to have than mastery.

    Also mastery benefits totems -- even if we are too slow to react, our healing stream totem can save them.
    To reiterate my point once again: There are many moments in heroic encounters where having everyone in the raid above, say, 80% HP, is just as important as having them above 20%. (HC Thok and HC Dark Animus being prime examples.) And this is where mastery fails badly.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Madelein View Post
    You are gemming and reforging for what would only constitute a possibility in a fight or a minute amount and for the rest of the time, you are either trying to get mana back, making the other healer do double duty or your mastery is of little to no use.

    I don't know of any raid leader that would allow people to remain at around 10% for any length of time. Yep, you are great for those few moments in a fight where everyone takes a lot of damage. So to the value of about what per boss? Anywhere between 5 to 10 heals or so where your mastery will matter? And if you have a disc priest, pally or R druid in the raid and you go mastery, frankly.. your mastery becomes wasted.

    Meanwhile crit and haste not only allows you to get mana back allowing you to keep healing, increasing your crit chance, pump more heals out, the haste affects your healing rain and how many ticks your totem heal for.. I would rather get the extra tick. As it is atm, I have not been playing as much and I am so near the next breakpoint and I am trying to decide if I want to drop some spirit or crit to go for it.. But trying to find the time to do all of this.. Ugh..

    I know you are a fan of it and I know you enjoy healing with a mastery build, and we all play this game for fun, but I have to say, your huge mastery build does my head in. Makes me wish I could kidnap your toon and regem and reforge it and give it back in the hope you would not notice. lol..

    A mastery build isn't necessarily inferior even when the criteria is average throughput. But to see this we need to go back to the start of the progression when we had less gear. As an example, with a mastery build I was ranked #4 shaman on norushen hc back then, when my disc priest co-healer wasn't as geared as she is now.

    As we progress in the patch and get more gear, mastery may look weaker on average hps since our co-healers get stronger. But its power is still hidden underneath for when we need it, it just gets harder to notice it.

    I'm not speaking just theoretically, I maintain a second gear set with crit priority, and I switch between them to test things out. I find there are less random deaths with a mastery build, it feels safer for me. The only fight in the first 10 bosses I found crit to generally work better is malkorok.

    But it's fine that different people find different builds to work best for them, the diversity is a beauty of the class

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xor7486 View Post
    To reiterate my point once again: There are many moments in heroic encounters where having everyone in the raid above, say, 80% HP, is just as important as having them above 20%. (HC Thok and HC Dark Animus being prime examples.) And this is where mastery fails badly.
    That's a valid concern. But I'm not sure mastery fails badly there. On HC dark animus I used a mastery build when 2 healing it with a disc priest and found it to work best for me. We just started our progress on Thok so I can't say for sure, but I have two gear sets, one with mastery and the other with crit, and I'm testing both ways on different pulls find out which works better.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by xor7486 View Post
    To reiterate my point once again: There are many moments in heroic encounters where having everyone in the raid above, say, 80% HP, is just as important as having them above 20%. (HC Thok and HC Dark Animus being prime examples.) And this is where mastery fails badly.
    this is exactly the main problem with mastery. sure, it's great for a fight like norushen where it's perfectly safe to leave people at low health, but unfortunately, those fights are rare this tier. norushen, for sure. galakras, maybe just for the end (to be fair, that's the only important part).

    mastery fails for the rest of the encounters because you can't afford to let people sit below 80% hp.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire
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    Gala and Norushen both can suddenly kill people sitting at 50% hp at any point of the fight really. Thats what ive seen in 25hc so i doubt you could afford to keep anyone under 70% for more than mere seconds.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    Gala and Norushen both can suddenly kill people sitting at 50% hp at any point of the fight really. Thats what ive seen in 25hc so i doubt you could afford to keep anyone under 70% for more than mere seconds.
    how? galakras from drakefire, sure. but not at the end of the fight...

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