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  1. #21
    download resto shaman stats. its a great addon if you are unsure of what stat is better for you. it gives you exact through put on all encounters on all stats. Im currently at a state where i gain more by gemming int instead of crit (44%crit unbuffed). The sole reason to gem crit comes from the sha trinket, otherwise gemming int/spirit as usual is better. Mastery have never been good and will never be in MoP, except for maybe Thok hc(25m) but only to a certain degree.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    this is exactly the main problem with mastery. sure, it's great for a fight like norushen where it's perfectly safe to leave people at low health, but unfortunately, those fights are rare this tier. norushen, for sure. galakras, maybe just for the end (to be fair, that's the only important part).

    mastery fails for the rest of the encounters because you can't afford to let people sit below 80% hp.
    And, not only that, the other problem with mastery is that it just lacks synergy with the way we heal and the rest of our AoE healing toolkit. High mastery is great for a super overpowered HTT on a low health raid, but realistically, that is the only important element of our toolkit that it really works well with. The huge bulk of our healing comes from HR and HST, both of which are abilities that are generally designed to keep the raid topped off/at stable HP% numbers. Mastery has synergy with Tidal Waves/direct heals, but the reality is direct heals are so rarely used these days that you can not effectively gear a build around them.

    The other thing to consider is, even if the raid drops to low HP% levels, do we actually have the tools to take advantage of it? The answer is - not really unless HTT and possibly Ascendance are off cooldown and can be used in that situation. HR and HST are too slow, and we have no Genesis like way of front loading their healing when needed. If your plan is to let HP% levels drop to let mastery boost HR/HST/Riptide/Chain Heal, one of two things is going to happen (1) people are going to die because you can't safely leave HP levels that low for a sustained period of time (2) other healers will have bursted up the damage before you are able to get any significant lift from mastery.

    Basically, mastery is good for HTT, single target spot heals and padding meters on progression attempts that are obvious wipes. You don't gear around it unless you want to gear around a 3 minute cooldown and the occasional spot heal. For everything else, other stat builds are going to be superior.

  3. #23
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    Mastery have never been good and will never be in MoP, except for maybe Thok hc(25m) but only to a certain degree.
    This is your opinion. Mastery has it's place based on composition and raid damage patterns.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymitylol View Post
    This is your opinion. Mastery has it's place based on composition and raid damage patterns.
    2 healing in a 10man heroic environment (sometimes solo healing for fun), I have yet to see any sort of healing patterns that make Mastery more beneficial than any other stat. If people are consistently low, that is something on their end- and a fix shouldn't be substituted with Mastery.

    Now, the argument between Crit vs Haste... that is different. Gear how you want. Your heals will still be superior compared to Mastery and not that much different from each other. I personally take a more Crit route (55k healing) with my Haste at 9k. I notice no issues with mana and the effectiveness of smart healing is amazing. Even for progression, if someone is low- they are generally going to die because they are low due to something they messed up. Mastery isn't going to save them unless I might be possibly healing them at that moment. Heck, our tank solo tanking Malkorak (without protectors trinket, too (it doesn't drop)) never falls below 65% with single target Crit healing. If I heal him for a 600k crit, and hes hit again and still the lowest health pool (which he will be), the smart heal will heal him ontop of my single target heal coming again, and it becomes a never ending chain of just constant heals.

    I mean, again, play what you want but the math and theory behind it points to Mastery being too far behind to even be comparable.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2014-01-17 at 12:14 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    2 healing in a 10man heroic environment (sometimes solo healing for fun), I have yet to see any sort of healing patterns that make Mastery more beneficial than any other stat. If people are consistently low, that is something on their end- and a fix shouldn't be substituted with Mastery.

    Now, the argument between Crit vs Haste... that is different. Gear how you want. Your heals will still be superior compared to Mastery and not that much different from each other. I personally take a more Crit route (55k healing) with my Haste at 9k. I notice no issues with mana and the effectiveness of smart healing is amazing. Even for progression, if someone is low- they are generally going to die because they are low due to something they messed up. Mastery isn't going to save them unless I might be possibly healing them at that moment. Heck, our tank solo tanking Malkorak (without protectors trinket, too (it doesn't drop)) never falls below 65% with single target Crit healing. If I heal him for a 600k crit, and hes hit again and still the lowest health pool (which he will be), the smart heal will heal him ontop of my single target heal coming again, and it becomes a never ending chain of just constant heals.

    I mean, again, play what you want but the math and theory behind it points to Mastery being too far behind to even be comparable.

    Healing isn't about math and theory. Yes, on paper mastery may not be the best stat since for pad damage it's value is beyond the lowest. I am surprised 2 healing in a 10h environment you put mastery so low on the totem pole. When people dip low at any point, mastery is the most reliable stat to bring them to full and it's the only time damage matters. Yes, that damage usually is covered by cooldowns but in an environment when you underheal I don't see why people place such little faith in it.

    I've been solo healing garrosh, I've tried many different things(From full crit, balanced, full haste, full mastery, mastery/crit, haste/crit, no lgm) and out of all of those builds the most reliable build I've seen fit is mastery with 10k haste and Eote. Yes due to the damage pattern I don't think there could be a better place for mastery to shine, but it shows the ability of mastery. 90% of the time mastery will not be the best, but it has it's point if the shaman is willing to go outside of what simple math says if the scenario is right for it. Healing != dps
    Last edited by Anonymitylol; 2014-01-18 at 07:24 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    I mean, again, play what you want but the math and theory behind it points to Mastery being too far behind to even be comparable.
    The math doesn't show that mastery is far behind. Here is a counter-example:

    The maximum heal bonus crit can give you is 100%, if the spell crits (and a bit more with the old meta or the amplification trinket). The average gain is much less than 100%. For example with 40% crit, on average you gain 40% bonus heal assuming no overheals.

    On the other hand, mastery with current ilvl can reach values higher than 100%. With 130% mastery, on a target with zero HP, we get 130% increased healing bonus every time, with no RNG. The difference between 40% for crit and 130% for mastery is huge. Mastery is more than 3 times better.

    Now if we look at the average gain over an entire fight, it depends on the average target HP, and yes it's behind on farm content or when overhealing, but this is not math, it's using a different criteria. What matters more:

    1. Average HPS increase over the entire fight.
    2. Higher heals on low HP people.

    If we change the criteria, the answer of which stat is better changes even on farm content. Math by itself doesn't show that mastery is inferior. On the contrary, if we use the second criteria, math shows that mastery is superior to any other stat, including intellect. Even with the 1st criteria mastery is sometimes better.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    The math doesn't show that mastery is far behind. Here is a counter-example:

    The maximum heal bonus crit can give you is 100%, if the spell crits (and a bit more with the old meta or the amplification trinket). The average gain is much less than 100%. For example with 40% crit, on average you gain 40% bonus heal assuming no overheals.

    On the other hand, mastery with current ilvl can reach values higher than 100%. With 130% mastery, on a target with zero HP, we get 130% increased healing bonus every time, with no RNG. The difference between 40% for crit and 130% for mastery is huge. Mastery is more than 3 times better.
    Its not 3 times better because that assumes that the raid is at 0% at all times, which means they are dead.

    Another factor you are leaving out with crit is amount mana returned. Depending on the boss, I can easily gain gain 2-3 times my mana pool just based on resurgence alone.

  8. #28
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    Another factor you are leaving out with crit is amount mana returned. Depending on the boss, I can easily gain gain 2-3 times my mana pool just based on resurgence alone.
    Let's be honest, mana is irrelevant at this point. I run low crit, low spirit, dps meta and I don't oom..

    Its not 3 times better because that assumes that the raid is at 0% at all times, which means they are dead.
    Using any such math on healing is foolish, his post just makes it clear.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviators View Post
    Its not 3 times better because that assumes that the raid is at 0% at all times, which means they are dead.
    Well of-course if someone is at 0% HP he's dead But the argument is the same for "close to 0%" (say 5%) -- math shows that mastery gives the highest heal bonus for targets with low HP compared to any other stat.

    And I wasn't assuming the raid is at 0% at all times. I'm speaking about the healing bonus to a single heal on a low HP target. By saying "every time" I mean we get the bonus from mastery reliably, while crit isn't reliable since due to RNG the heal might not crit at all so we'll get 0 bonus heal from it.

    Another factor you are leaving out with crit is amount mana returned. Depending on the boss, I can easily gain gain 2-3 times my mana pool just based on resurgence alone.
    True, but it doesn't matter as long as we aren't oom at the end.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post


    True, but it doesn't matter as long as we aren't oom at the end.
    Yes it does, because the extra regen from Crit lets you do one of two things
    1. Run at a lower Spirit level with more stats dumped into throughput stats in the first place
    2. Be more aggressive with your mana usage/spell selection, use less GCDs on Totemic Recalls and things.

    You also can't really gear around "being at sub 10% mana at the end of fights", because the mana consumption requirements vary from pull to pull. The legendary meta gem has notoriously large RNG swings in proc rate/uptime; I've seen it vary by 30%-50% from 10 minute pull to 10 minute pull, and you need to have enough mana for when it is at the low end of that scale.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymitylol View Post
    Healing isn't about math and theory. Yes, on paper mastery may not be the best stat since for pad damage it's value is beyond the lowest. I am surprised 2 healing in a 10h environment you put mastery so low on the totem pole. When people dip low at any point, mastery is the most reliable stat to bring them to full and it's the only time damage matters. Yes, that damage usually is covered by cooldowns but in an environment when you underheal I don't see why people place such little faith in it.

    I've been solo healing garrosh, I've tried many different things(From full crit, balanced, full haste, full mastery, mastery/crit, haste/crit, no lgm) and out of all of those builds the most reliable build I've seen fit is mastery with 10k haste and Eote. Yes due to the damage pattern I don't think there could be a better place for mastery to shine, but it shows the ability of mastery. 90% of the time mastery will not be the best, but it has it's point if the shaman is willing to go outside of what simple math says if the scenario is right for it. Healing != dps
    solo healing is one of the few times mastery stacking can work, and garrosh is one of the few examples of an encounter without frequent 1-shot type raid damage.

    so in your specific example, it probably works quite well. there's just not enough of them.

  12. #32
    Keep haste at 12.5% unbuffed.

    From what I understand you can either favor a crit>mastery build or a mastery>crit build according to your playstyle.

    The crit build favors crit when reforging to keep your mana higher.
    The mastery build will give a solid raid performance and your healing will ramp up when needed most.

    I have been using askmrrobot for a long time now and I find this site quite useful with regards to reforging, gems and enchants.

  13. #33
    Go crit ! regen regen regen !

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Adirah View Post
    I have been using askmrrobot for a long time now and I find this site quite useful with regards to reforging, gems and enchants.
    askmrrobot is very suboptimal for healers. If I were to use AMR it would tell me to socket pure spirit and put me at over 22K spirit. It is only good if you understand the stat weights and can alter them accordingly.

    For Resto Shami:

    - go for a haste breakpoint (I go for the 9k one)
    - rest Crit
    - "enough" Spirit
    - avoid any Mastery if possible

  15. #35
    A little late to the party again for posting but:

    I prioritize mastery based on what type of raid damage is going out. Not even on Heroic Thok is Mastery even remotely a good idea for me. I don't have trouble bringing people back to full, and honestly, I think not critting almost 100% of the time on Healing Surge would screw me over. GHW crits majority of the time as well. Maybe its my playstyle, but my performance went into the hole when I tried a high mastery route.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Tungzten View Post
    askmrrobot is very suboptimal for healers. If I were to use AMR it would tell me to socket pure spirit and put me at over 22K spirit. It is only good if you understand the stat weights and can alter them accordingly.
    It's not about setting stat weights as much as setting limits.

    Currently with AMR I'm hitting 13822 spirit and 8401 haste (Goblin), and then the rest goes into crit. Putting me at 33.36% haste and 31.49% crit at 557, sadly I'm still at 61,69% mastery, which is due to me changing from elemental to Resto.

    My point is simply that AMR is excellent for resto shamans, if you know what you want your spirit and haste levels to be.

  17. #37
    I dont understand why use askmrrobot if the only thing you have to do is get a haste cap and dump everything else into crit...you are just making a useless site think they are usefull.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tungzten View Post
    askmrrobot is very suboptimal for healers. If I were to use AMR it would tell me to socket pure spirit and put me at over 22K spirit. It is only good if you understand the stat weights and can alter them accordingly.

    For Resto Shami:

    - go for a haste breakpoint (I go for the 9k one)
    - rest Crit
    - "enough" Spirit
    - avoid any Mastery if possible
    When you optimize a healer on AMR you are supposed to put in a Spirit cap. They're not going to guess at a Spirit cap for you since it varies a lot from person to person. Put in a Spirit cap, a haste breakpoint, tweak int to crit to mastery weights as you see fit and then you're done and can use the site to rank gear, find the best upgrades, and figure out your BiS.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Elios View Post
    I dont understand why use askmrrobot if the only thing you have to do is get a haste cap and dump everything else into crit...you are just making a useless site think they are usefull.
    Because getting AMR to hit the cap(s) is much easier and doesn't require me to use an excessive amount of time to hit about 8400 haste rating, and AMR is most likely going to do a better job, meaning I get to stuff even more ratings into crit. Granted the difference may be in the area of ~5-50 ratings, all depending how much time I use, it is just time wasted when AMR does it so excellent.

    Further more as delk points out, when you have AMR set up to your preferences, its more than just an easy way to hit cap(s).

  20. #40
    High Overlord Mietsch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymitylol View Post
    Let's be honest, mana is irrelevant at this point. I run low crit, low spirit, dps meta and I don't oom..



    Using any such math on healing is foolish, his post just makes it clear.
    Your idea of low Crit is 10k?

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