Lore and SWTOR: are force users too weak in the game?

[Fencers]

I'm going to have to strongly disagree that Kenobi equal's Vader at the height of Vader's power.

It is stated on the wiki as such:

He [Kenobi] later displayed his mastery of Force Push during his duel with Darth Vader on Mustafar, as neither of them were able to overpower the other while simultaneously using the ability.[12] The two struggled against each other for a short time, and though Kenobi was clearly giving ground, they both ended up being hurled in opposite directions across the room they were in. The fact that Vader's connection to the Force was, at the time, stronger than any known Force user in history further exemplifies Kenobi's mastery of the technique

I was keen to say Kenobi exhibited force extension and usage of technique. I did not say Kenobi had the raw aptitude of Anakin. But Kenobi's mastery and skill of the force and saber are among the greatest of the Jedi Order- such that Kenobi has bested or equaled many Jedi, Sith and other warriors many times over. As is stated and shown numerous times w/r/t Kenobi, some of whom were among the most powerful of their era.

[Venziir]

Of course, gameplay kinda requires them to be.

Yup. Same goes for Lightsabers, which in SWTOR are apparently just glowsticks, instead of being more-or-less laser-swords capable of cutting through just about everything.

[Varabently]

I think unfortunately you have to look at it from a balance point of view. One way they sort of gloss over this is armor. Supposedly there's armor and shields that reduce a lightsaber or force's damage. From a lore perspective that's pretty suspect.

You have to suspend your disbelief a bit since otherwise Jedi would be unstoppable. No more boss fights. 5 jedi should be able to cut through anything and be night untouchable versus blasters.

[iceberg265]

Yes, OP, you are correct. However they had to do it for game play reasons. Can you imagine how bad the game would be if a couple classes were far and away superior in every way to the other classes?

What am I saying? We're on a WoW dominated message board, of course all of us can imagine it.

- - - Updated - - -

Its not just inconsistent in the game either. The Star Wars books are all contradictory. Jango Fett supposedly killed Jedi with his bare hands. Supposedly was one of the greatest Mandalore of all time. Defeated by Obi-Wan, who was and is considered to be one the most powerful Jedi, but of course Ben Kenobi gets trounced by R2-D2 driods on occasion.

Personally I don't consider anything Karen Traviss writes to be legit.

[Lovestar]

I think unfortunately you have to look at it from a balance point of view. One way they sort of gloss over this is armor. Supposedly there's armor and shields that reduce a lightsaber or force's damage. From a lore perspective that's pretty suspect.

Humorously, Lightsabers deal "Energy" damage (which is reduced by armor) while Bounty Hunter Flamethrowers deal "Elemental" damage (which ignores shields and armor).

So, mechanically at least, blowtorch > lightsaber. :p

It actually is canon that certain materials are extremely lightsaber-resistant (including some creatures' natural hides), Beskar / Mandalorian Iron being one of the prized materials for this. Cortosis is another one that SWTOR namedrops a few times. But these are extremely rare/expensive so the average anyone isn't running around with much on (despite what the crafting system might suggest, haha).

[Ashana Darkmoon]

One of the best moments in the game is during the Smuggler story when a Sith whoops your ass in a cutscene. Basically exactly as it should be, like Han barging in on Vader in Cloud City. Then of course later you're murdering Dark Council members with a blaster pistol. Pretty silly.

A lot of the main story quests (not class story - I mean planet stories) make a lot more sense when you are a Jedi, but sadly lore is almost always the first victim of moving an IP into a multiplayer game. The KOTOR games didn't have to worry about that.

[zeekphreak]

A sentiment that is echoed through most MMO games; "gameplay will always trump lore"

[Dezerte]

Wasn't one of the lore-reasons that because there are so many force users during this time, and if you think of the force as a limited power source, your average force-user isn't able to tap into the force that much because it's in a limited supply, with only a few who are masters of it (bosses etc).

Or at least, it could be a plausible lore reason, Star Wars lore is pretty wonky anyway.

[Stir]

How about 'The whole force-user superhero bullocks shouldn't fly in the first place?'

[Deleted]

They are so weak for game play balance purposes. They still like to show cut scenes where a force user easily takes care of a several opponents, but after the scene ends you easily defeat him/her with just a gun though :-p A light saber doesn't even cut, it's like they are using a thin glowing baseball bat.

It's hard to make force user and light sabers feel special when you have a myriad of them around though, that's a weakness od the game as well as the movie chapters 1-3.

A sentiment that is echoed through most MMO games; "gameplay will always trump lore"

Yeah, Blizzard does the same and I hate it

[Stir]

They are so weak for game play balance purposes. They still like to show cut scenes where a force user easily takes care of a several opponents, but after the scene ends you easily defeat him/her with just a gun though :-p A light saber doesn't even cut, it's like they are using a thin glowing baseball bat.

It's hard to make force user and light sabers feel special when you have a myriad of them around though, that's a weakness od the game as well as the movie chapters 1-3.

The question is: Why would you want them to feel 'special?' What would it add, other than ego-pumping and power-play?

Yeah, Blizzard does the same and I hate it

No, you don't. You just think you do because you don't know how much you'll hate the alternative.

[May90]

They are so weak for game play balance purposes. They still like to show cut scenes where a force user easily takes care of a several opponents, but after the scene ends you easily defeat him/her with just a gun though :-p A light saber doesn't even cut, it's like they are using a thin glowing baseball bat.

But, why should they be balanced? It is quite reasonable that a force user should be stronger in both PvP and PvE than non-force user. It is possible to make both general classes viable, even if force user can easily tear a usual soldier to shreds. For example, in teamed PvP there can be a limitation, say, 2 force users and 10 non-force users. Or, for operations, 1 force user and 3 non-force users. In this case, people won't play force users only as there will be a serious competition between them in this case and queues will take like forever. Quite soon the number of force users to non-force users will be about 1:3 or so. In world PvP, non-force users will be able to team up against a single force user and take him down. In quests, make heroic 4 quests involving killing a single force user that uses all the tricks and kills you with a single blow, but who is defeatable by careful positioning and kiting.

Of course, that would require changing the whole combat system. It is hard for a game that initially was created as a WoW-clone...

[Azhreia]

A game simply doesn't work that way. Yes, lorewise force users are stronger than non-force users. Yes, you could in theory design the game to emulate that and on paper it might even look feasible, but in the real world it simply won't work. Just look at a MMO of your choosing and see what happens if balancing is of and one class is unintenionally stronger than the others. In most cases the population of that class will rise until it's fixed and another class becomes the favourite.

If you think it would be any different if you actually designed one class to be superior (and by a huge margin) ...

Sure, in theory your restrictions would balance it out. In reality most people would just play the super imba class and hope for others to play the weaklings. No one wants to play the cannon-fodder. We all want to be the hero of the story. That's simply how these games work.

As much as I hate the whole "Gameplay trumps lore" thing, in most cases it is the best design, because the alternative is much much worse.

[May90]

Sure, in theory your restrictions would balance it out. In reality most people would just play the super imba class and hope for others to play the weaklings. No one wants to play the cannon-fodder. We all want to be the hero of the story. That's simply how these games work.

Not necessarily. Take Jedi Knight 2, for example. Lightsabers there were just so much better than anything else, that in multiplayer one with lightsaber could easily take down 2 guys with weapons at once, and sometimes even 3-4 of them. Yet, weapon players were very important as well as supporters of the lightsaber players. And, yes, people played with weapons very often.

Actually, in WoW the same thing takes place. A healer will never defeat a DPS player, unless the latter is really bad. Yet healers are very important in teamed PvP and in PvE and many people play them. Same goes for tanks in LoL: while tank will definitely lose to a kiting ranged DPS, in group battles they are probably the most important champions.

I think, a MMO that claims to be story-based should, at least partially, respect the lore. A blaster dude taking down a Jedi Knight who killed the Emperor just doesn't make sense.

[Achaman]

No, not really. The same argument that you have with Jango Fett also applies to the Jedi: in the movies we only saw some of the most powerful force users of all time so the gap to "normals" seems unnecessarily large.



How many Jedi Masters actually exist? A few dozen? Coruscant alone is supposed to have a population of over a trillion people, the Galactic Republic is supposed to have billions of billions of people. Even if Obi Wan is only the 11th most powerful Jedi in the Republic or whatever that still makes him a ridiculously exceptional talent. The guy who's best at something on Earth is the best 1 out of 6 billion and the best 1 out of 6 billion force user probably doesn't even make it to Jedi training or there would be a billion Jedi around.

Obi Wan only looks "far from the best Jedi" because he's seen with Palpatine, Yoda and the Skywalkers who *are* some of the best Jedi/Sith of all time. But to say that he isn't an exceptionally powerful Jedi is like saying the guy who finishes 9th place in the Olympics isn't fast because he'll never beat Usain Bolt.



The game is very inconsistent on this. One of the things that bugged me a lot while playing the Bounty Hunter, Scoundrel and Agent storylines is how I expected to get some lightsaber using companion and I never did. Clearly, someone in charge of the stories declared that force users are too special to serve non-force-users but then this makes no sense since in the stories we see plenty of Sith apprentices assigned to "serve" influental normals as "bodyguards" and there's a big deal made about the philosophy of Jedi serving the Republic instead of the other way around.

It would have made perfect sense for some Sith lord who wants to watch my agent closely to assign an apprentice to "serve" me and the dialogue would have made great exploration of force user/non force user relations. And it would have made perfect sense to have him around for the parts of the story when you fight force users. But they bailed.

random fact but humanity got to 7 billion a few months ago

[Deleted]

The question is: Why would you want them to feel 'special?' What would it add, other than ego-pumping and power-play?

Because things are more fun when they are special rather than all over the place. I want it to be special to fight a sith or jedi rather than kill hundreds of them like they were nothing. It's perfectly fine that you don't feel the same though. Like I already said you have to make them weaker for gameplay reasons, especially because of PVP, and even if I'd be happy if there was no PVP at all I'm not ego enough to suggest robbing those players of their fun.

No, you don't. You just think you do because you don't know how much you'll hate the alternative.

I'm not as convinced as you are. Do you have any example of a game where they have not compromised the story/lore?

[Deleted]

Star Wars suffers from the classic DBZ hero syndrome. In order for the series to continue, the big bad must always have another big bad to top him. And unfortunately, they set up the early big bads waaaaaaay too strong to do that.

It's like looking back at the Frieza saga of DBZ. Frieza could apparently destroy planets, and had the 'most powerful saiyan' on his (her?) side. Frieza is defeated by the upstart hero. Hooray, the day is saved!

Only then a new bad guy comes into play who is more powerful than Frieza. Debatably, he should be able to destroy the planet and then some if he chose to. But he didn't. Hooray, the day is saved!

Only then ANOTHER new bad guy comes along who absorbs the power of all the good guys who are more powerful than him. He absolutely SHOULD be able to destroy the world three times over and then some.

AND THEN... You see where I'm going with this. Simply put, the next big bad will always be badder than the current big bad. And eventually, it just gets ridiculous how powerful they are, to the point that them being defeated by anyone will look completely unreal.

I think you have it the wrong way round, DBZ suffers from Star Wars syndrome :P

[Parrin]

Well, none of this is based on cannon, but I think it makes sense from a certain perspective.

What I garnered from the Darth Bane books was that the force (DS) was spread thin amongst the sith because there were so many of them. He manipulated the sith leaders into a ritual that killed themselves and their followers, concentrating all of the dark side with him and his one apprentice. Since the light side and the dark side balance each other, it made him more powerful. In SWTOR, the emperor has leeched all of the force from an entire planet, making him the "reservoir" for most of the dark side power. He's going to be stronger than any other force user. The rest of the dark side is spread out through thousands of sith, while the light side is spread out among thousands of jedi, making them fairly weak. Plus the agents, smugglers, troopers, and bounty hunters are force sensitive, allowing them to compete with these weaker than usual force users.

I have no idea how accurate any of this is, but it's enough to allow me to enjoy the game.

Edit: spoilers are from the Darth Bane books, and the Revan novel.

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

I don't know OP; I recall seeing at least visually, blocking animations (maybe just my own? but I thought I recall seeing it in mobs too; been a while). I know for certain I was force choked by mobs. Not the weaklings, not at low level; but more like mid to high level strong and higher mobs ... so I can disagree with some of what you say.

In a game, you have to be more forgiving. Mob respawns is a big one that most of us have grown accustomed to. You also need to view yourself, as far as story goes, as exceptional. You are the 'hero'. You are an elite force. Your power level is far above the field force users you run into in the world. Think of yourself like a young Yoda or Vader. The people you meet would be beneath your level of control of the force or your skills in combat as a non-force adept character.

There are a lot of things you have to let go of in most games; it is harder to do the more established lore there is to cross reference against; but in these situations, for logistical reasons, you must give some leeway. Blizzard asks this of their fans directly, stating that either gameplay > lore ... or assets to raids > living/evolving world that reflects the progressing story line. So people forgive going to SMC and seeing the dead scar and half the city in disrepair for the past 7 years with no efforts at fixing or cleaning it up. The forgive the fact that people have been killing bears for their asses for 10 years in a particular area in massive amounts, and a massive amount of people, and there is still a bear problem.

If you are really into lore, it can get frustrating at times when you see it getting twisted or broken; but the point of a game is to have fun; and you should try to let go and do just that when you can

[Budong]

I'm not gonna give Jango as much credit as some of you. He got his head lopped off by a glacier slow moving Mace Windu (in the movie at least). Honestly Windu was so much better portrayed in the animated stuff than Sam Jackson could ever do.

And I know Jango's head in Boba's arms was supposed to be set up as a powerful moment for Boba and his growth into the best bounty hunter ever but I still had a bad taste in my mouth from how Jango lost his head and the fact that they all have a damn New Zealand accent .