bm>surv now o.O

[Theelol]

only me that gets higher sim dps when using bm now? with AoC and TeD

[Venziir]

Is this new? I mean, I was pretty sure that BM has been on top ever since MoP launched - at least that's what I've seen most hunters complaning about, well that and button inflation!

[Deleted]

Is this new? I mean, I was pretty sure that BM has been on top ever since MoP launched - at least that's what I've seen most hunters complaning about, well that and button inflation!

People will always twist things so they have something to complain about.

[Deleted]

Till now your BM hunters are faar below me at Heroic Shamans
Also i still preff SVV for Nazgrim where mine pet can sit all the time on boss till i nuke the adds same with Garrosh
Both specs have their equal uses in SoO ant thats makes me happy

[Dracodraco]

Till now your BM hunters are faar below me at Heroic Shamans
Also i still preff SVV for Nazgrim where mine pet can sit all the time on boss till i nuke the adds same with Garrosh
Both specs have their equal uses in SoO ant thats makes me happy

Actually, best BM hunter is ahead of best Surv hunter on shamans. And on Nazgrim.

But BM has been ahead of Surv since forever, basicly - the differnece, however, has been so small that it has been almost neglible which spec you chose (in the 1% difference range).
Also, for any hunter with AoC+Haromms instead of AoC+TEB, Surv would be ahead of BM as your pets attacks can not trigger multistrike (AKA more than half your damage won't proc the trinket).

[Deleted]

Actually, best BM hunter is ahead of best Surv hunter on shamans. And on Nazgrim.

But BM has been ahead of Surv since forever, basicly - the differnece, however, has been so small that it has been almost neglible which spec you chose (in the 1% difference range).
Also, for any hunter with AoC+Haromms instead of AoC+TEB, Surv would be ahead of BM as your pets attacks can not trigger multistrike (AKA more than half your damage won't proc the trinket).

Well in the end survival is all about the 4piece bonus. No matter how you mix your trinkets between specs (AoC for all 3), the difference between BM and SV relies on how lucky you get with proccs, and that's sad

[eschatological]

The irony is, before this xpac, I hated BM as a noob spec that bads played in BGs.

Now I prefer it to SV.

I just wanna play MM again!

[Deleted]

But BM has been ahead of Surv since forever, basicly - the differnece, however, has been so small that it has been almost neglible which spec you chose (in the 1% difference range).

Which is pretty much how things should be - the spec lets you choose the style of play you prefer, and as long as you play competently you'll put out comparable numbers.

If they can get MM working to a similar level in Warlords we'll be in a good place.

[Christhammer]

I just wanna play MM again!

Omg, just play what you enjoy the most. Hate this "i cant play this spec because the other ones are better" attitude.
I play MM and i would never switch to BM because i think it's boring as hell. MM all the way!

[Deleted]

Omg, just play what you enjoy the most. Hate this "i cant play this spec because the other ones are better" attitude.
I play MM and i would never switch to BM because i think it's boring as hell. MM all the way!

Maybe he doesn't want to gimp his raid? MM may be fine in ST (compared to the other 2 specs), but its AoE is just bad.

[mercychan]

If you're running TED then BM will be stronger than survival.

Imagine getting a LnL proc with TED. You wouldn't want to refresh explosive shot ticks with weaker and weaker ticks. Similar argument for Harmomm's - why use it for BM if it's undervalued due to not proccing off of pet attacks? I swap between specs on certain fights and thankfully have both trinkets. Play TED with BM and Haromm's with SV.

Actually, best BM hunter is ahead of best Surv hunter on shamans. And on Nazgrim.

I wouldn't compare the best of two different specs with eachother. Obviously the #1 ranks are padding hard / doing a cheesy strat. Better to look at the players ~ranks 50 - 60 to see how the specs contrast on fights.

[Kingoomieiii]

Till now your BM hunters are faar below me at Heroic Shamans
Also i still preff SVV for Nazgrim where mine pet can sit all the time on boss till i nuke the adds same with Garrosh
Both specs have their equal uses in SoO ant thats makes me happy

We blow up slimes too fast for Serpent Spread to matter- it won't even tick twice. I get more damage on them with a few hits of Beast Cleave.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're running TED then BM will be stronger than survival.

Imagine getting a LnL proc with TED. You wouldn't want to refresh explosive shot ticks with weaker and weaker ticks. Similar argument for Harmomm's - why use it for BM if it's undervalued due to not proccing off of pet attacks? I swap between specs on certain fights and thankfully have both trinkets. Play TED with BM and Haromm's with SV.



I wouldn't compare the best of two different specs with eachother. Obviously the #1 ranks are padding hard / doing a cheesy strat. Better to look at the players ~ranks 50 - 60 to see how the specs contrast on fights.

Your performance on Nazgrim will depend a lot on how your tanks deal with the adds. Obviously BM can lose a ton of damage to pet travel time, but Surv can leave the pet on the boss full-time without losing half of its burst on important adds.

[Rackfu]

Imagine getting a LnL proc with TED. You wouldn't want to refresh explosive shot ticks with weaker and weaker ticks.

That is not how the Explosive Shot mechanic works.

Explosive shot does not "refresh".... the damage just keeps rolling over, so a change in your stats (agi, AP, crit, etc...) does not affect anything that happened previously. It only affects what happens after the change.

[Kingoomieiii]

That is not how the Explosive Shot mechanic works.

Explosive shot does not "refresh".... the damage just keeps rolling over, so a change in your stats (agi, AP, crit, etc...) does not affect anything that happened previously. It only affects what happens after the change.

This. Explosive Shot is an Ignite mechanic now, you can't clip ticks anymore. If you're running MSBT or something, when you get a 10-proc LnL or whatever, compare the last ticks of ExlS with the first. The last ones will be much larger, regardless of procs, because all the unused damage of the previous casts is rolled over until it can finally hit.

[Dracodraco]

This. Explosive Shot is an Ignite mechanic now, you can't clip ticks anymore. If you're running MSBT or something, when you get a 10-proc LnL or whatever, compare the last ticks of ExlS with the first. The last ones will be much larger, regardless of procs, because all the unused damage of the previous casts is rolled over until it can finally hit.

I do however seem to recall a post some weeks (months?) back that seemed to conclude that crit, on the other hand, doesn't carry over - EG, you get an explosive shot with 60% crit, then one with 40%, the "ignite" part of the shot (the ticks) will have 40% crit - all of them.
That said, it's still not really a big enough difference to make holding them worth it, either way.

[eschatological]

yeah, that same thread concluded you'd need like a streak of 27 where a crit buff fell off in the first few for that to matter.

[Deleted]

only me that gets higher sim dps when using bm now? with AoC and TeD

Your question is funny since simcraft hasn't been updated with these new buffs yet.

[Thursley]

The specs are pretty close, to the point where you should generally just play your preference. Assuming you set everything up optimally for each spec, if you are seeing BM ahead by a non-insignificant amount it's probably because of the ticking ebon detonator. That trinket is decent for Beast Mastery but poor for Survival. On the other hand, Haromm's Talisman is terrific for survival, and actually surprisingly decent for beast mastery (despite not procing from pet damage it's still pretty close to TED as Beast Mastery because it is that strong and TED is that weak).

[Azortharion]

First: Add override.spell_data=effect.5844.base_value=35 to the overrides window in SimC to reflect new buffs untill 542-3 is out.

The BM vs SV argument is fight dependent.. Bursty cleave off main target (Nazgrim HC at times), go BM, sustained..? Ergh, it's kinda difficult but in multi-target BM really tends to win so if you can control your pet perfectly during the fight go BM.. Regardless of trinkets (though I'd argue Haromm's rapes Detonator when 4+ targets cuz Multi-Shot proccing and no real ICD).

Single-target optimizing isn't too big of a deal because there's only like 2-3 (depending on how you look at Thok HC as single-target) pure single target fights.. But for the sake of fitting in, SV if you have Haromm's, BM if you have TED (and if you have both, whichever is higher iLvl, if they're the same iLvl SV still seems like the most situationally useful.. Focus usage is lower, gives more headroom for Multi-Shot focus dumping etc).

[Dracodraco]

First: Add override.spell_data=effect.5844.base_value=35 to the overrides window in SimC to reflect new buffs untill 542-3 is out.

The BM vs SV argument is fight dependent.. Bursty cleave off main target (Nazgrim HC at times), go BM, sustained..? Ergh, it's kinda difficult but in multi-target BM really tends to win so if you can control your pet perfectly during the fight go BM.. Regardless of trinkets (though I'd argue Haromm's rapes Detonator when 4+ targets cuz Multi-Shot proccing and no real ICD).

Single-target optimizing isn't too big of a deal because there's only like 2-3 (depending on how you look at Thok HC as single-target) pure single target fights.. But for the sake of fitting in, SV if you have Haromm's, BM if you have TED (and if you have both, whichever is higher iLvl, if they're the same iLvl SV still seems like the most situationally useful.. Focus usage is lower, gives more headroom for Multi-Shot focus dumping etc).

The majority of BM's AOE dmg is from beast cleave, not multishot.
Point and case, http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...?s=1268&e=1546 - take a look at my multi shot damage (8.8M), vs my Beast Cleave damage (33.5M). Haromms doesn't even begin to pull ahead even on an AOE-encounter, TED is still quite a bit superior as it affects the pet who does five times as much AOE damage as you do.
(also, screw you guys and your fancy gear. I was 569 in that log, I know the dps is low <.<).